Late 90's Camaro's/Mustangs, any good?
Discussion
Hey all, i've been milling this over for a few weeks...
i love big cars, i love big american v8's, i love cars you dont see every day, i love rear wheel drive, and i'm a fan of doing drift days.
The obvious choice would be to buy a vauxhall monaro, and i will, one day, when theyre avaliable for £7k. In the mean time, i've been looking at something along the lines of a bmw 540, but it turns out they break a lot, and then cost a lot to fix, and you cant drive them if the heaters arent working, because the heaters control the left rear speakers, which actually control the brakes (well, you know, you get the picture).
This left me with the MG ZT 260, great, nice engine, works well, handles well, but a lot of the mustang tuning bits wont fit, and if you want it supercharging it'll cost 6grand, well, i'd be as well with a monaro...
So, i kind of thought about an american car, a few things came to mind, so i did some looking.
Cars like these...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/303008.htm
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2004-FORD-MUSTANG-MACH-1_W0Q...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-MUSTANG-5-0-LITRE-COBRA...
Reasonable purchase costs, reasonable insurance costs, easy to fix, cheap to get parts, and if i want to upgrade anything, i can order the bits from america and even with shipping costs, the prices wont be too steep.
my question is, jeremy clarkson would have me belive that all of the above cars are dead awful... But i drive a £600 1992 bmw, with lots of bits of trim missing/loose, so i'm not too bothered about crap plastic, or all out grip, an engine with plenty of grunt (and v8 noise) and a live rear axle that'll provide plenty of rwd excitement is all i ask for.
Am i barking up the right tree, or should i forget about expensive v8's and keep my reliable 6pot beemer with comedy named rear tyres...
Cheers
Nick
i love big cars, i love big american v8's, i love cars you dont see every day, i love rear wheel drive, and i'm a fan of doing drift days.
The obvious choice would be to buy a vauxhall monaro, and i will, one day, when theyre avaliable for £7k. In the mean time, i've been looking at something along the lines of a bmw 540, but it turns out they break a lot, and then cost a lot to fix, and you cant drive them if the heaters arent working, because the heaters control the left rear speakers, which actually control the brakes (well, you know, you get the picture).
This left me with the MG ZT 260, great, nice engine, works well, handles well, but a lot of the mustang tuning bits wont fit, and if you want it supercharging it'll cost 6grand, well, i'd be as well with a monaro...
So, i kind of thought about an american car, a few things came to mind, so i did some looking.
Cars like these...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/303008.htm
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2004-FORD-MUSTANG-MACH-1_W0Q...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-MUSTANG-5-0-LITRE-COBRA...
Reasonable purchase costs, reasonable insurance costs, easy to fix, cheap to get parts, and if i want to upgrade anything, i can order the bits from america and even with shipping costs, the prices wont be too steep.
my question is, jeremy clarkson would have me belive that all of the above cars are dead awful... But i drive a £600 1992 bmw, with lots of bits of trim missing/loose, so i'm not too bothered about crap plastic, or all out grip, an engine with plenty of grunt (and v8 noise) and a live rear axle that'll provide plenty of rwd excitement is all i ask for.
Am i barking up the right tree, or should i forget about expensive v8's and keep my reliable 6pot beemer with comedy named rear tyres...
Cheers
Nick
The Mustangs aren't the greatest handlers in the world although the Mach 1 is a nice car but unnecessarily complicated in the engine department. the 2005 Mustang was quite a big leap forward.
I prefer the power of the 4th gen Camaro. The SS is top of the range although Euro spec Camaro Z28s came with the leather Trans Am seats. They are darned quick with 60 coming up in 5.0 to 5.4 seconds, 100 in 12.4 (leaving your average 16 second hot hatch in it's wake) and driven properly, should be capable of a low 13 second quarter mile. Top speed is 160mph. I had a Z28 for 4 years and loved it. the all-alloy pushrod 5.7 LS1 is ultra-reliable and looked after by oil changes. Benefits from subframe connectors and Bilstein shocks for better handling and rigidity but still nothing much to touch it out there.
I prefer the power of the 4th gen Camaro. The SS is top of the range although Euro spec Camaro Z28s came with the leather Trans Am seats. They are darned quick with 60 coming up in 5.0 to 5.4 seconds, 100 in 12.4 (leaving your average 16 second hot hatch in it's wake) and driven properly, should be capable of a low 13 second quarter mile. Top speed is 160mph. I had a Z28 for 4 years and loved it. the all-alloy pushrod 5.7 LS1 is ultra-reliable and looked after by oil changes. Benefits from subframe connectors and Bilstein shocks for better handling and rigidity but still nothing much to touch it out there.
I have run a 95 Camaro Z28 as my daily driver for the last few years. I would highly recommend them. As you say, you have to accept the interior plastics are horrible and it will not go round corners like a Lotus Elise. But.....they sound fantastic and are surprisingly good fun, whilst also being nice and simple. LHD absolutely no problem.
I'm in nearly the same position in that I'm looking for a good daily that's "odd".
I've owned a 2nd & a 3rd gen Camaro, used them as dailies and found them to be very good. A bit lacking on boot space to be honest. Had Yanks as dailies for over 20 years now and still have one tucked away in the garage!
Having driven a 2004, 06 and 07 Mustang whilst on various holidays, I have found them to be very good, comfortable and reasonable on the gas.
So expect to see a 94 up Stang on my drive as soon as I can find a good one for the money!!
I've owned a 2nd & a 3rd gen Camaro, used them as dailies and found them to be very good. A bit lacking on boot space to be honest. Had Yanks as dailies for over 20 years now and still have one tucked away in the garage!
Having driven a 2004, 06 and 07 Mustang whilst on various holidays, I have found them to be very good, comfortable and reasonable on the gas.
So expect to see a 94 up Stang on my drive as soon as I can find a good one for the money!!
Sweet, surprisingly positive comments, so basically, i want a ls1 camaro z28 (which have bilsteins and subframe connectors?).
And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
bigfatnick said:
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Officially, it depends how dusty the environment you live in is. GM suggest you may want to change air/pollen filters more regularly than that if you live in, say, the Nevada desert. Otherwise, I think they only need a couple of sets of spark plugs and routine oil changes for the first 100k or so!Try and bag a testdrive in one, be-it Mustang or Camaro/TransAM. You'll quickly know if it's for you or not. I bought my 4th gen after 3 years of BMW ownership [a '95 E36 328i coupe]. The Camaro doesn't feel like a premium product in the way that the BMW did, but I think the only thing I really miss about it is the manual gearbox ['cos the Camaro is auto]. Certainly I can't see the Camaro running up the same sort of size maintenance bills as the BMW did!
bigfatnick said:
Sweet, surprisingly positive comments, so basically, i want a ls1 camaro z28 (which have bilsteins and subframe connectors?).
And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
Yup, an LS1 WS6/Trans Am or Z28/SS is where it's at, although the Bilsteins & SF Connectors will be aftermarket ones (but inexpensive).And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
Personally I'd buy one with an auto but it's a personal choice.
Yes they're very uncomplicated and fairly bombproof but like any car if they're constantly abused they'll break (diff is supposed to be a weak spot), still, cheap to fix and you could probably do it yourself.
bigfatnick said:
Sweet, surprisingly positive comments, so basically, i want a ls1 camaro z28 (which have bilsteins and subframe connectors?).
And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
Mine is an lt1 which is still quite nippy, so it might be worth looking at those also.And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
I'd go for the LS1 every time simply because it was under-rated and far nearer the Corvette's output than GM wanted to admit (nearer 300 at the back wheels when dynioed in 1998). It's also all-alloy as opposed to the LT1 and also has an 8 coil system of ignition rather than the sometimes problematic Optispark system on the crank nose on the earlier 275hp LT1.
Yes, the subframe connectors and Bilsteins have to be bought and the SFCs welded on (www.bmrsuspension.com). The difference once it's welded on is that when you jack a corner of the car, the whole car lifts, not just one corner. The T-tops are fairly leakproof on these cars. The brakes can be weak and I would recommend Hawk performance pads from the US.
Watch for leaking steering racks and take particular note of the bottom of the front wings where they bolt onto a metal flange because they often get jacked incorrectly which can break the plastic. Oh yes, the wings, door skins and tailgate are all plastic on the 4th gen as are the nose cone and tail so as far as rust is concerned, check underneath (it's usually only surface rust) and the rear arches (which are steel).
They are harder to find these days though.
Yes, the subframe connectors and Bilsteins have to be bought and the SFCs welded on (www.bmrsuspension.com). The difference once it's welded on is that when you jack a corner of the car, the whole car lifts, not just one corner. The T-tops are fairly leakproof on these cars. The brakes can be weak and I would recommend Hawk performance pads from the US.
Watch for leaking steering racks and take particular note of the bottom of the front wings where they bolt onto a metal flange because they often get jacked incorrectly which can break the plastic. Oh yes, the wings, door skins and tailgate are all plastic on the 4th gen as are the nose cone and tail so as far as rust is concerned, check underneath (it's usually only surface rust) and the rear arches (which are steel).
They are harder to find these days though.
bigfatnick said:
... i love rear wheel drive, and i'm a fan of doing drift days.
If by drifting you mean that business with arsing the car around sideways then you might want to consider something other than an f-body because the ten-bolt may not put up with that for very long.However, in the event that you do elect to purchase a V8 f-body, stay away from thirdgens for drifting events because the car will come to hate you and, at the first opportunity, it will do something like throw a fan blade in your general direction or come off the jack stands while you're under it; there is a demon which lurks in all thirdgens and it's not to be trifled with..lol
bigfatnick said:
Sweet, surprisingly positive comments, so basically, i want a ls1 camaro z28 (which have bilsteins and subframe connectors?).
And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
,And then on top of that it has to be a manual.
Are they as bombproof/uncomplicated as i'm lead to belive? Is it true that the ls1 requires only oil changes between 50k services?
Thanks,
Nick
,
or the Firebird / Trans Am. / WS6
Lay the rubber down a little better than the sister car Camaro due to slightly different rear axle set up.
The WS6 looks menacing.
,
LS1
Naw, rear axle mountings and supports are different,
page 5 = Mustang
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
page 7 = Camaro
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
Page 11 = Firebird
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
G.
page 5 = Mustang
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
page 7 = Camaro
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
Page 11 = Firebird
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
G.
uk_vette said:
Naw, rear axle mountings and supports are different,
page 5 = Mustang
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
page 7 = Camaro
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
Page 11 = Firebird
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
G.
It doesn't say that. Both have identical axles and the same control arms as both use the same floorpan. If anything, the Pontiac should be the softer sprung which may well account for weight transfer digging the car in better as the Camaro is the sports model in the US, the Pontiac the more upmarket softer brand, traditionally. As that article says, "it's a mystery" although the lesser weight on the Pontiac is probably also an advantage and I would guess it has slightly better aerodynamics.page 5 = Mustang
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
page 7 = Camaro
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
Page 11 = Firebird
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_car...
G.
Ref Camaro Firebirds
I've been lucky enough to own one of each generation, and for what it's worth this is my opinion.
1 and 2nd generation; Expensive to buy [you won't get a decent one for under £6k [especially 1st generation] expensive to run as a dailly [fuel economy is fairly dismal] Very prone to rot. Howevber, all are cheap to tune, and the bits [excluding panels interior stuff etc] are cheap.
4th generation; Cheap to buy,[£5k and up for a good 'un] but a bit too "Japanese" for me. V6's aren't good [prone to headgaskets] Quite expensive to tune [they have a lot of electronic gubbins] You may as well buy a Supra.
Which leaves....
3rd generation;
[and not just because I'm selling a mint one either!] Cheapest of the lot to buy,[£4k for best ones] but if you want to cane it, avoid anything with t tops, as the too much power applied with the roof section removed can actually slightly distort the roof, and it'll leak for ever and a day. Very tunable, either in V8 305 or 350 form [avoid four pots and V6's] especially if you buy one with a carb, as the fuel injected ones are getting into "gubbins" era.
Vital to buy a rot free one, a lot more expensive to sort out the body, than sort out the oilly bits.
Handle very, very well. On the mechanical side, big weakness is brakes, but cheap to sort out / upgrade.Parts are cheap [£28 for a fuel pump!] Buy an auto [manuals are very rare] Late autos are a bit marginal, and, again, there's gubbins involved. Early 3 speed plus o/d are stronger. Not THAT fast in standard form, but you can tune the nuts off them for not a lot of cash.
As I said I've got a mint silver one for sale [see this website!] but if you want any advise, just get in touch
I've been lucky enough to own one of each generation, and for what it's worth this is my opinion.
1 and 2nd generation; Expensive to buy [you won't get a decent one for under £6k [especially 1st generation] expensive to run as a dailly [fuel economy is fairly dismal] Very prone to rot. Howevber, all are cheap to tune, and the bits [excluding panels interior stuff etc] are cheap.
4th generation; Cheap to buy,[£5k and up for a good 'un] but a bit too "Japanese" for me. V6's aren't good [prone to headgaskets] Quite expensive to tune [they have a lot of electronic gubbins] You may as well buy a Supra.
Which leaves....
3rd generation;
[and not just because I'm selling a mint one either!] Cheapest of the lot to buy,[£4k for best ones] but if you want to cane it, avoid anything with t tops, as the too much power applied with the roof section removed can actually slightly distort the roof, and it'll leak for ever and a day. Very tunable, either in V8 305 or 350 form [avoid four pots and V6's] especially if you buy one with a carb, as the fuel injected ones are getting into "gubbins" era.
Vital to buy a rot free one, a lot more expensive to sort out the body, than sort out the oilly bits.
Handle very, very well. On the mechanical side, big weakness is brakes, but cheap to sort out / upgrade.Parts are cheap [£28 for a fuel pump!] Buy an auto [manuals are very rare] Late autos are a bit marginal, and, again, there's gubbins involved. Early 3 speed plus o/d are stronger. Not THAT fast in standard form, but you can tune the nuts off them for not a lot of cash.
As I said I've got a mint silver one for sale [see this website!] but if you want any advise, just get in touch
Edited by senatorc on Saturday 26th January 09:46
autoholic said:
expect to see a 94 up Stang on my drive as soon as I can find a good one for the money!!
i'd think twice if i were you.....i've had my 96 stang V6 18 months now, and its had so much go wrong with it its unreal, its a nice car, but i'm living one fault to the next, its not abused, far from it, the car is absolutely immacualte, and had just 23,000 miles on the clock when i bought it, its just poor quality..
i keep kidding myself when i get a fault fixed it will all be sorted, but its not.
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