Camaro or Firebird???
Discussion
I am contemplating buying a Chevy Camaro or a Pontiac Firebird and need some advice. I live in Scotland and am a little worried about when things go wrong, how easy are they to fix and get parts for. The era of car I would be interested in is late 80's early 90's.
Has anyone has any experience with either a Camaro or Firebird of this age?
If imported from the States, do any alterations need to be made to the cars?
Any experiences/advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Norm
Has anyone has any experience with either a Camaro or Firebird of this age?
If imported from the States, do any alterations need to be made to the cars?
Any experiences/advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Norm
Not an expert on 3rd Gen F Bodies but these guys are http://www.thirdgen.org/
If you can find one, a manual 5.7 Iroc Camaro would be the pick. For a 'Yank',go and handle well and small enough for a UK garage. Tuning/tinkering potential - endless.
Early 80's 5.0 crossfire V8's bit weedy as standard and the V6's do pretty much same MPG as the V8's, so...
Also try http://www.aacint.com/ (UK based club who have lots of Camaro/Firebird owners who can point you to local specialists and what may need changing for the MOT won't need SVA'ing due to age
)
If you can find one, a manual 5.7 Iroc Camaro would be the pick. For a 'Yank',go and handle well and small enough for a UK garage. Tuning/tinkering potential - endless.
Early 80's 5.0 crossfire V8's bit weedy as standard and the V6's do pretty much same MPG as the V8's, so...
Also try http://www.aacint.com/ (UK based club who have lots of Camaro/Firebird owners who can point you to local specialists and what may need changing for the MOT won't need SVA'ing due to age
)Edited by Motown Junk on Thursday 26th July 15:58
I drive a 1995 Camaro Z28 as a daily driver and have had it for three and a half years. I love it to bits, it is great fun. Pretty good spares back up with a range of specialists to choose from. Ebay also useful for small bits and pieces. Many tuning bits available. Firebirds generally seem to be a bit more expensive than Camaros so take your pick. Just make sure it is a V8.
Camaros & Firebirds are the same cars they just have slightly different panels, buy which ever one you think looks the best (1989 GTA!!)
NB:
3rd gens that don't have a 'TPI' engine are slow.
Many 'TPI' cars are advertised as 5.7/350 whereas they're really 5.0/305, they look identical you have to check the VIN/block #No (I was caught out by this)
90 - 92 Firebirds were ugly.
LT1 Firebirds & Camaros were ugly.
LS1 Firebirds & Camaros are awesome but can be a little plasticy to look at.
All of them are fun to own and drive.
NB:
3rd gens that don't have a 'TPI' engine are slow.
Many 'TPI' cars are advertised as 5.7/350 whereas they're really 5.0/305, they look identical you have to check the VIN/block #No (I was caught out by this)
90 - 92 Firebirds were ugly.
LT1 Firebirds & Camaros were ugly.
LS1 Firebirds & Camaros are awesome but can be a little plasticy to look at.
All of them are fun to own and drive.
There isn't much on a thirdgen that a drunk monkey couldn't fix in his driveway w/out hurting himself. Getting parts in the UK might not be that easy though.
No factory thirds ever came with a 5.7 (350) and a manual tranny; only the 305s got the 5 speed because it is a POS tranny.
TBI is crap, TPI is not too bad but carbed is better IMO.
All of the factory cars are slow and underpowered; however they do have potential and a carbed car will produce more HP for less money.
Thirdgens are among the best handling cars that GM has produced and they will do quite well with a Prokit and a set of Koni Yellows or Bilsteins as well as some other basic suspension bolt ons like poly bushings etc.
A well prepped thirdgen with around 400 HP is a brutally fast car which can hold its own track or street.
No factory thirds ever came with a 5.7 (350) and a manual tranny; only the 305s got the 5 speed because it is a POS tranny.
TBI is crap, TPI is not too bad but carbed is better IMO.
All of the factory cars are slow and underpowered; however they do have potential and a carbed car will produce more HP for less money.
Thirdgens are among the best handling cars that GM has produced and they will do quite well with a Prokit and a set of Koni Yellows or Bilsteins as well as some other basic suspension bolt ons like poly bushings etc.
A well prepped thirdgen with around 400 HP is a brutally fast car which can hold its own track or street.
Camaro.
Better looking and generally cheaper, with more kit than a Firebird ( wonderbar etc!! ) on the Iroc Z
You wont find a 5.7 manual unless its been converted as they just didnt make them.
Buy the best 350 top spec car you can afford, as on which car though its up to personal taste on the styling. I prefer the Camaro as i think it looks more muscular than a Firebird, and the Trans am looks a bit fat and soggy in my opinion.
This is my 88 Iroc Z 350 and its great fun
It has an axle relocation kit, performance exhaust, Hypertech chip, A/C and Smog delete pulleys, t tops, no cat, custom leather interior, G92 axle package, Aluminium prop, the list goes on and on.
Ben
Better looking and generally cheaper, with more kit than a Firebird ( wonderbar etc!! ) on the Iroc Z
You wont find a 5.7 manual unless its been converted as they just didnt make them.
Buy the best 350 top spec car you can afford, as on which car though its up to personal taste on the styling. I prefer the Camaro as i think it looks more muscular than a Firebird, and the Trans am looks a bit fat and soggy in my opinion.
This is my 88 Iroc Z 350 and its great fun
It has an axle relocation kit, performance exhaust, Hypertech chip, A/C and Smog delete pulleys, t tops, no cat, custom leather interior, G92 axle package, Aluminium prop, the list goes on and on.
Ben
Edited by bloodyniceben on Saturday 28th July 11:03
Thanks guys, I am beginning to think it might be best to just decide on Firebird of Camaro by which one I find! I think they both look awesome.
What sort if mpg do you guys get with a V8? Any 0-60 figures?
Obviously they are gonna be pretty hard to come by in the UK but it's just a case of keeping an eye out. Need to test drive one first just to see if I even like them! Are they quite spacious on the inside? The reason I ask is that I am 6'7 and some sporty cars are a bit cramped for me!
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
What sort if mpg do you guys get with a V8? Any 0-60 figures?
Obviously they are gonna be pretty hard to come by in the UK but it's just a case of keeping an eye out. Need to test drive one first just to see if I even like them! Are they quite spacious on the inside? The reason I ask is that I am 6'7 and some sporty cars are a bit cramped for me!
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
Mine averages about 16-18 mpg which does include a fair bit of local and town driving.
Generally been quite reliable. I bought it knowing it had a dodgy gearbox, which cost a lot more to replace than I thought. Am currently waiting for a new clutch which is the second I have had. Just replaced the exhaust system. Other than that just little bits and pieces really over a three and a half year period.
0-60 in the low to mid fives I think.
Generally been quite reliable. I bought it knowing it had a dodgy gearbox, which cost a lot more to replace than I thought. Am currently waiting for a new clutch which is the second I have had. Just replaced the exhaust system. Other than that just little bits and pieces really over a three and a half year period.
0-60 in the low to mid fives I think.
bloodyniceben said:
Camaro.
Better looking and generally cheaper, with more kit than a Firebird ( wonderbar etc!! ) on the Iroc Z
What did a Camaro come with that the equivalent Firebird/Trans Am didn't?Better looking and generally cheaper, with more kit than a Firebird ( wonderbar etc!! ) on the Iroc Z
If you get a car that doesn't have the steering brace then they're recommended (even if you have the stock one isn't ideal (along with most of the stock setup)), but will hardly break the bank:
http://www.top-downsolutions.com/product_info.php?...
somnv said:
What sort if mpg do you guys get with a V8?
If you have to ask, you're buying the wrong vehicle, there are some nice euro-box diesels these days that will give you 40+ mpgsomnv said:
Any 0-60 figures?
Stock 0-60 times http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-...somnv said:
Are they quite spacious on the inside? The reason I ask is that I am 6'7 and some sporty cars are a bit cramped for me!
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
They are 2+2 and the drivers seat goes way backDo you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
somnv said:
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
Equivalent to, but remember not as easy as popping down halfords for parts. REGULAR oil changes are the key to theseEdited by ws6 on Saturday 28th July 20:47
somnv said:
Thanks guys, I am beginning to think it might be best to just decide on Firebird of Camaro by which one I find! I think they both look awesome.
What sort if mpg do you guys get with a V8? Any 0-60 figures?
Obviously they are gonna be pretty hard to come by in the UK but it's just a case of keeping an eye out. Need to test drive one first just to see if I even like them! Are they quite spacious on the inside? The reason I ask is that I am 6'7 and some sporty cars are a bit cramped for me!
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
I'm about 6'3 and find the car to be quite comfortable. Even with a helmet on I still have a little bit of headroom using the stock seats. Some aftermarket seats like Corbeau will raise you up too much though.What sort if mpg do you guys get with a V8? Any 0-60 figures?
Obviously they are gonna be pretty hard to come by in the UK but it's just a case of keeping an eye out. Need to test drive one first just to see if I even like them! Are they quite spacious on the inside? The reason I ask is that I am 6'7 and some sporty cars are a bit cramped for me!
Do you think reliabilty to comparable to most European cars?
I've had my 83 since 86; it's been very reliable and cheap to maintain. The old front engine RWD GM cars are simple technology and last forever. Mine is carbed with no computer which I prefer because there's less electronics to deal with and less to go wrong. Changing the fuel pump on an FI car is a pain in the ass because you have to drop the tank; Takes me about 15 minutes to change the mechanical fuel pump on a car like mine because it's on the side of the motor.
As for stock handling the Camaro and Firebird are near enough as makes no difference so just pick which ever one you like. Given that your choices will likely be limited I would be more concerned about the condition of the car rather than whether it's one or the other. Moreover, all thirdgens are so old now that the stock suspension will have worn out long ago so it will have been replaced and hopefully upgraded; if not then do the upgrades yourself.
I would recommend the following:
Steering Brace (it will keep the frame from cracking where the box bolts to the car)
Strut Tower Brace (optional)
Peripheral Subframe Connectors (tubular)
Poly Bushings
Rear Lower Control Arms and relocation brackets
Adjustable Panhard Bar
Eibach Prokit
Koni Yellows for track
Bilsteins for street use
Some kind of 17 x 9 inch rims with 275/40/17s will really work well but you don't have to go that far
I dunno if mine were isolated issues, but I had an 88 IROC Z with a 350 that had a wear-related air leak in the throttle body at about 70,000 miles, caused by an 'ovaling' of the hole that the butterfly spindle passed through in the aluminium casting. New throttle body was silly expensive at the time (early 90's). Also the fuel pump failed, which meant removing the entire rear end. The pump is in the gas tank and the tank is mounted above the rear axle.
Finally, I'm convinced that when GM built the car, they started with the radio antenna and constructed the rest of the car around it. When the power antenna quit, re-routing the replacement co-ax to the back of the stereo involved pulling the entire dash out and a whole afternoon of colourful language. Oh, the roof leaked as well! Other than that, it was a great car and I loved it. It was a daily driver that got a lot of hard work - I lived in Bradford, W. Yorks and commuted to Manchester in it daily. It wasn't too bad on gas, but ate rear tyres and brake pads. As mentioned above, I also removed the catalyst and put a Hypertech chip in it. In it's day it was a bit of a monster and would keep up with my mates C4 Vette.
Finally, I'm convinced that when GM built the car, they started with the radio antenna and constructed the rest of the car around it. When the power antenna quit, re-routing the replacement co-ax to the back of the stereo involved pulling the entire dash out and a whole afternoon of colourful language. Oh, the roof leaked as well! Other than that, it was a great car and I loved it. It was a daily driver that got a lot of hard work - I lived in Bradford, W. Yorks and commuted to Manchester in it daily. It wasn't too bad on gas, but ate rear tyres and brake pads. As mentioned above, I also removed the catalyst and put a Hypertech chip in it. In it's day it was a bit of a monster and would keep up with my mates C4 Vette.
"but carbed is better IMO"
Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
The rest of your posting is excellent. I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week.
If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
I laughed at your corbeau seats claim as when i first put mine in, i couldnt get my legs under the damn steering wheel. After ditching their subframes i made my own, which puts the seat as low as it can go - weird shaped floor huh.
If you pick the right parts a third gen will reward.
I'm not a huge fan of them left as standard though.
I use 255/17s on 8-1/2 inch rims and the switch to modern rubber brought a huge change in grip levels.
In hindsight i wish i had gone 9 inch on the rims, but sometimes you have to take what you can get (BMW rims fit straight on).
Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
The rest of your posting is excellent. I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week.
If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
I laughed at your corbeau seats claim as when i first put mine in, i couldnt get my legs under the damn steering wheel. After ditching their subframes i made my own, which puts the seat as low as it can go - weird shaped floor huh.
If you pick the right parts a third gen will reward.
I'm not a huge fan of them left as standard though.
I use 255/17s on 8-1/2 inch rims and the switch to modern rubber brought a huge change in grip levels.
In hindsight i wish i had gone 9 inch on the rims, but sometimes you have to take what you can get (BMW rims fit straight on).
Edited by tpivette on Monday 30th July 16:01
tpivette said:
"but carbed is better IMO"
Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week. If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
Carb v. FI is very much a personal preference. I like the simplicity of a carb. I have a 650 Demon; it can be on and off the car in no time and all I have to do is set the idle and jetting and it's ready to go. Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week. If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
My friends with FI systems are paying a lot of money to have other people tune there cars for them. Also, my ZZ4 would lose about 100 HP with TPI and to get that power back I'd have to spend a lot on a mini-ram or whatever the preferred method is to make power with TPI. I'd rather spend the money on suspensions bits.
The other thing too is that when an FI system fails it will leave you on the side of the road more often than not whereas a carb usually allows you to get home even if it's barely operating; this is something of a consideration in Canada where you can freeze to death on the side of a road in the middle of nowhere..lol
Sportlines are quite a drop and might have caused the rear axle to move over a bit. If possible make the panhard adjustable so that you can centre the axle if needed.
Also, with Sportlines the LCA angle will be out quite a bit and the car would likely benfit from having a set LCA relocation brackets installed. Check the pinion angle too as it might have changed.
Did you reinstall the old thirdgen isolators or install new ones? If new, they might be fourthgen isolators which are thicker and raise the car a bit. AFAIK new thirdgen isolators are no longer available and parts suppliers will just ship out the fourthgen ones instead.
I think with your suspension mods you really need subframe connectors. Spohn tubular SFCs are a perimeter design and work very well on a car which is set up for handling as opposed to drag racing. I would stay away from the SFCs that just run down the centre of the car; although they are fine for drag racing, I like the perimeter designs because you can stitch them to the rocker panels.
The stock alignment is +1 camber which makes the car sluggish at turn in and causes a lot of wear on the outer edge. If you havn’t already done so you might want to knock some of that out of there. I've been running -1 camber and the tyres have worn evenly however the car sees a lot track time as well as aggressive street driving and that might account for the outer edges wearing at a similar rate to the inner edges with high negative camber settings. It's possible that a mildly driven road car might have a lot of inner edge wear with say -1 camber however the stock setting is too much positive; 0 or -.5 would probably be enough. I find 0 toe to be good and caster is 3.5 which was all I could get.
Bars are 32/21 with poly bushings all round. I haven't tried another set but these seem to work well with the rates on the Prokit - which is 720 linear on the fronts I think. The car is very comfortable around the Mosport GP Track which is the fastest track I go to so I'm content to leave well enough alone.
That's about it I guess; although brake upgrades are another matter as the stockers are a bit lame but generally adequate for street use.
Here are some sites:
www.thirdgen.org
There is lot of good information on thirdgen but you have to be careful who you listen to as there are a lot of completed morons on that site and it has gone down somewhat over the last few years.
www.frrax.com
Frax is very good site in my opinion.
As for rims, I have the 9.5 x 17 Ronal Firehawks with 275/40/17s on all four corners. They have the correct offset for the car but they are far too heavy IMO.
When would you need to tune a FI car? The only way you could tune it would be to have the PROM in the ECU remapped, you'd never need to do that unless you'd dramatically altered the engine/induction.
If you had a stock 3rd gen with a 350TPI motor in it then it'll have up to 240 horses under the hood, if you had a carb'ed motor producing more than that then it probably wouldn't be the engine that came with the car, even if it is you've already spent a lot more money than it would cost with a TPI motor.
If you had a stock 3rd gen with a 350TPI motor in it then it'll have up to 240 horses under the hood, if you had a carb'ed motor producing more than that then it probably wouldn't be the engine that came with the car, even if it is you've already spent a lot more money than it would cost with a TPI motor.
Joe Rotax said:
tpivette said:
"but carbed is better IMO"
Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week. If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
Carb v. FI is very much a personal preference. I like the simplicity of a carb. I have a 650 Demon; it can be on and off the car in no time and all I have to do is set the idle and jetting and it's ready to go. Thats funny, I was going to call you foolish until i read in a later posting that you're 6'3.
I recently added yellow koni's and sportlines to my third gen, the difference was amazing.
I have been fabricating a panhard and strut brace using QA1 rod ends etc and hopefully these should be on the car by next week. If succesful I will be moving onto the wonderbar and maybe the LCA's.
My friends with FI systems are paying a lot of money to have other people tune there cars for them. Also, my ZZ4 would lose about 100 HP with TPI and to get that power back I'd have to spend a lot on a mini-ram or whatever the preferred method is to make power with TPI. I'd rather spend the money on suspensions bits.
The other thing too is that when an FI system fails it will leave you on the side of the road more often than not whereas a carb usually allows you to get home even if it's barely operating; this is something of a consideration in Canada where you can freeze to death on the side of a road in the middle of nowhere..lol
Sportlines are quite a drop and might have caused the rear axle to move over a bit. If possible make the panhard adjustable so that you can centre the axle if needed.
Also, with Sportlines the LCA angle will be out quite a bit and the car would likely benfit from having a set LCA relocation brackets installed. Check the pinion angle too as it might have changed.
Did you reinstall the old thirdgen isolators or install new ones? If new, they might be fourthgen isolators which are thicker and raise the car a bit. AFAIK new thirdgen isolators are no longer available and parts suppliers will just ship out the fourthgen ones instead.
I think with your suspension mods you really need subframe connectors. Spohn tubular SFCs are a perimeter design and work very well on a car which is set up for handling as opposed to drag racing. I would stay away from the SFCs that just run down the centre of the car; although they are fine for drag racing, I like the perimeter designs because you can stitch them to the rocker panels.
The stock alignment is +1 camber which makes the car sluggish at turn in and causes a lot of wear on the outer edge. If you havn’t already done so you might want to knock some of that out of there. I've been running -1 camber and the tyres have worn evenly however the car sees a lot track time as well as aggressive street driving and that might account for the outer edges wearing at a similar rate to the inner edges with high negative camber settings. It's possible that a mildly driven road car might have a lot of inner edge wear with say -1 camber however the stock setting is too much positive; 0 or -.5 would probably be enough. I find 0 toe to be good and caster is 3.5 which was all I could get.
Bars are 32/21 with poly bushings all round. I haven't tried another set but these seem to work well with the rates on the Prokit - which is 720 linear on the fronts I think. The car is very comfortable around the Mosport GP Track which is the fastest track I go to so I'm content to leave well enough alone.
That's about it I guess; although brake upgrades are another matter as the stockers are a bit lame but generally adequate for street use.
Here are some sites:
www.thirdgen.org
There is lot of good information on thirdgen but you have to be careful who you listen to as there are a lot of completed morons on that site and it has gone down somewhat over the last few years.
www.frrax.com
Frax is very good site in my opinion.
As for rims, I have the 9.5 x 17 Ronal Firehawks with 275/40/17s on all four corners. They have the correct offset for the car but they are far too heavy IMO.
There is a similar issue with piston size in the brake master cylinders. GM got some complaints about the pedal being too stiff in earlier cars and compromised on it notwithstanding that the solid pedal provides better feedback. So, when buying a MC make sure it's the right one.
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