Supercharging - an idiot's guide please

[Howard-]

Morning all,

I'm determined to get my head around this whole forced induction business as I would love to indulge in it myself one day soon..

Can someone list all the 'parts' I would need to successfully and reliably supercharge my 1.6 mk1? I'm not looking for monster power (yet), between 160 and 200bhp would be plenty.

Does a kit like this http://www.mossmx5.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?Pl... give you everything you need?

Are there any cheaper alternatives that give everything?

I like the idea of buying it, well, as much of it as possible in a "kit" form so I don't have to hunt around finding various random bits and pieces and making them work together - I can probably manage to fit it myself if instructions are provided and all that's required is bolting stuff together and splicing some wires, but I'm not *that* mechanically uber-sufficient yet!


Cheers

[pbirkett]

Yes, the Jackson Racing supercharger kit gives you everything you need.

You can expect circa 40% power increase, which on a healthy 1.6 will give approx 160 bhp.

If you see yourself wanting much more power in the future, I'd bite the bullet, spend a bit more, and just get to that stage in the first place or it'll cost you a lot more money, especially if you are buying the bits new.

[OnlyMX5ives]

To the current Moss kits you'll probably want to add a timing retard box, MSD / Bipes etc

To the older Moss kits with AFPR you'll need a pump too.

Otherwise thats about it.

[Ab Shocks]

pbirkett said:

Yes, the Jackson Racing supercharger kit gives you everything you need.

You can expect circa 40% power increase, which on a healthy 1.6 will give approx 160 bhp.

If you see yourself wanting much more power in the future, I'd bite the bullet, spend a bit more, and just get to that stage in the first place or it'll cost you a lot more money, especially if you are buying the bits new.

Exactly
You start with a crappy 100ish BHP on some cars and I don't see the point in dark siding what isn't working.
I expect 140bhp out of the 1.6 with a few bits and that is a much better baseline to start at and I expect to end up at circa 190bhp with SC.
I'm looking at a less expensive version of the Greddy E manage system that will cross over to the SC system later.

[Howard-]

my 1.6 developed 118bhp on the rollers so I would class it as fairly healthy

Does the Moss kit not come with a fuelling solution then?

[pbirkett]

Howard- said:

Does the Moss kit not come with a fuelling solution then?

Comes with a powercard for your fuelling, which is fine for a basic setup.

Like I said before though, if you anticipate upgrading in the future, why not just spend a bit more in the first place and get the better components - eg MP62 charger, decent EMU etc, rather than sticking the basic kit on, then having to upgrade literally everything when you want more power.

The basic M45 SC is good for about 8 psi or so IIRC, which will at most get you up to 190 - 200 bhp before the thing spins itself to an early grave. Better to get the MP62 which is good for at least 190 bhp and all the way up to perhaps around 250.

Then again, who knows, you might be happy enough with the basic solution - I am - I am running a standard kit on a 1.8 RS-Ltd and reckon I am getting about 180 bhp and it is pretty quick to say the least - it feels faster than my old Integra Type-R.

[willd58]

Is there a capable turbo or MP62 SC setup that comes with everything you need in a package similar to the m45 package Moss provide?

[Howard-]

pbirkett said:

Howard- said:

Does the Moss kit not come with a fuelling solution then?

Comes with a powercard for your fuelling, which is fine for a basic setup.

Like I said before though, if you anticipate upgrading in the future, why not just spend a bit more in the first place and get the better components - eg MP62 charger, decent EMU etc, rather than sticking the basic kit on, then having to upgrade literally everything when you want more power.

The basic M45 SC is good for about 8 psi or so IIRC, which will at most get you up to 190 - 200 bhp before the thing spins itself to an early grave. Better to get the MP62 which is good for at least 190 bhp and all the way up to perhaps around 250.

Then again, who knows, you might be happy enough with the basic solution - I am - I am running a standard kit on a 1.8 RS-Ltd and reckon I am getting about 180 bhp and it is pretty quick to say the least - it feels faster than my old Integra Type-R.

Thanks. This makes sense. I just don't know where to start I like the idea of being able to buy a kit that gives me all I need, but what you said is a fair point - if I want to upgrade, I'll have to upgrade everything. With this in mind, the Moss kit seems quite dear, so I was wondering if anything else is on the market? Or do I have to hunt things down myself and bodge them together?

[Ab Shocks]

Howard- said:

my 1.6 developed 118bhp on the rollers so I would class it as fairly healthy

Does the Moss kit not come with a fuelling solution then?

118bhp is very good for a untouched 1.6. is it decatted?
From what I understand, the moss kit now comes with the US fueling card not the UK one and that creates problems with our superior fuel.
Ask Russ at MX-5 Mad how he got over the problem.

[MX-5 Lazza]

Of course there are dynos and there are dynos. My car has shown 226bhp at one dyno (one I trust) and 253bhp at another (which I'm pretty sure is unrealistic).

[Howard-]

Howard- said:

pbirkett said:

Howard- said:

Does the Moss kit not come with a fuelling solution then?

Comes with a powercard for your fuelling, which is fine for a basic setup.

Like I said before though, if you anticipate upgrading in the future, why not just spend a bit more in the first place and get the better components - eg MP62 charger, decent EMU etc, rather than sticking the basic kit on, then having to upgrade literally everything when you want more power.

The basic M45 SC is good for about 8 psi or so IIRC, which will at most get you up to 190 - 200 bhp before the thing spins itself to an early grave. Better to get the MP62 which is good for at least 190 bhp and all the way up to perhaps around 250.

Then again, who knows, you might be happy enough with the basic solution - I am - I am running a standard kit on a 1.8 RS-Ltd and reckon I am getting about 180 bhp and it is pretty quick to say the least - it feels faster than my old Integra Type-R.

Thanks. This makes sense. I just don't know where to start I like the idea of being able to buy a kit that gives me all I need, but what you said is a fair point - if I want to upgrade, I'll have to upgrade everything. With this in mind, the Moss kit seems quite dear, so I was wondering if anything else is on the market? Or do I have to hunt things down myself and bodge them together?

Little bit of a bump, still trying to get my head around this!

Anyone able to help with my question above? Is there any 'easy' way of obtaining all the parts I need but with future-proofness in mind? Am I really restricted to around 160bhp with the Moss kit?


Re the engine power, my engine certainly doesn't feel 'tired' in any way. I have no reason to disbelieve it's making book figure power
Thanks for your patience

[MX-5 Lazza]

An M45 installation starts at around 160bhp on a 1.6. It's easy to upgrade it to around 170-180bhp with a boost upgrade kit.
If you want to push more power out of it then you will need a better fuelling solution and will need full control of the timing. For that you need at least an eManage blue rather than the Powercard the Moss kit comes with. Personally I'd rather have full control of the timing from the start.

My advice would be to talk to Phil at Performance 5. He can supply you with exactly the kit you want rather than having to buy the Moss kit then replace parts of it.

[heebeegeetee]

Imo 160bhp in an early Mk1 is a nice figure and it gives a really nice drive.

Imo the car's don't really go much faster with another 30bhp, and it starts to get pricey when going over 200bhp from a 1.6.

Personlly speaking as someone with 190bhp in a later Mk1 1800, I wouldn't spend a lot of money in trying for the 200 or so. If you can get a genuine 160bhp without breaking the bank i think you'll end up with a very nice and nippy car indeed.

Plus you'll be able to keep standard brakes and suspension, just make sure its all in good nick. Doesn't cost much to renew brakes but don't waste money on all the snake-oil solutions.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Tuesday 17th November 11:31

[pbirkett]

Agree with heebeegeetee, a basic kit will net you around 160 bhp, possibly a little more with some other mods, and it will be reliable and fun. There isn't a whole lot wrong IMO with the standard M45 superchargers and the bits that come with them.

I am running a supercharged 1.8, nothing more than basic (5 psi) boost and a powercard for fuelling. An MX5 specialist has driven mine and he reckoned it was around the 175 bhp mark. He also said that 200 bhp cars don't feel all that much quicker, and beyond the basic package, you are really hitting the laws of dimishing returns.

I know a lot of people, including some on here, run 250 bhp turbo MX-5s, but for me, and I have been thinking long and hard about this for several weeks, it would probably change the character of the car too much for me... it might be good for the track, but on the road, it could be a bit of handful, and you'd be holding back too much all of the time. Not neccesarily worse you understand, but different.

The basic supercharger kit gives one main advantage over stock for me - torque. You can pretty much drive like a diesel, and make rapid progress without absolutely thrashing it. Of course, you can still rev it too.

Its really up to you what you want to do, but if you just wanna fit and forget, a basic kit is probably all you need, but if you really must have big power, you'll have to spend big money to get it, if you want it to be reliable. Better just to sell up and buy one already done. I thought about doing this myself, but I am pretty happy with the way mine runs - it is quick enough to feel fast & fun, slow enough to be thrashed everywhere if required, has great flexibility (bar the 2-3krpm flat spot i still have not managed to get rid of!) so can overtake with relative ease, and although Powercards are often maligned for poor fuel economy, on a trip from newcastle to carlisle and back again, most of it on country roads, I managed to get 34 MPG from mine. It does use a fair bit if you thrash it though!

[Howard-]

Thanks for all the advice so far

I might speak to Phil when I have the cash - will see what the xmas bonus is like (if at all) but I am very tempted to just go for the JR kit from Moss - I've heard a lot of good things about it in terms of reliablity and that it gives a useful smooth power boost. I honestly don't think I'll be in a position to spend silly money going 200bhp+ so 160-170 sounds ideal. £2k for an almost "set and forget" upgrade isn't too bad in my eyes. Things like fuelling can be upgraded in the future anyway

[Howard-]

So say I had the JR kit, and was getting around 160bhp... I've read on Nutz etc about timing control, AFPRs (?), fuel pumps etc. Is any of this necessary unless I want more power?

Ta

[MX-5 Lazza]

The Moss kit comes with everything you need for the standard power i.e Powercard for fuelling. You will have to retard the timing a bit, probably back to about 4-6btdc which will lose you a bit of power & throttle response at lower revs but it isn't really a problem.
An afpr (auxiliary fuel pressure regulator) is a very basic fuelling solution so isn't needed if you have the Powercard.
You won't need to change the fuel pump at standard power unless your existing one is getting a bit tired in which case it might as well be replaced with an uprated one.

Once you have the Moss kit fitted for a while you might think about upgrading for more power/better economy/better control over fuel & timing in which case the first step would be to replace the PC with something like an eManage blue which has custom maps for the fuelling & timing. When you have that you are then in a position to start upgrading things - bigger injectors, smaller pulleys etc to allow for more power.

[pbirkett]

MX-5 Lazza, you mention that retarding the timing loses power / throttle response at lower revs; do you think this is why mine hesitates slightly at just under 3000 rpm, and then takes off. It only seems to be at about 2500 - 3000 rpm, its relatively ok below that and fine above it...

I have been told to check the usual things; plugs, leads, air filter etc, but none of it has helped. I still have a new lambda sensor to fit, but am unsure if it'll make any difference; I do get decent MPG on a run and if that was knackered then surely it'd just drink loads all of the time? The only other two avenues I can think of are coil pack and the Powercard based setup.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but if anyone will know the answer to my question, I feel it'll be you

[Howard-]

MX-5 Lazza said:

The Moss kit comes with everything you need for the standard power i.e Powercard for fuelling. You will have to retard the timing a bit, probably back to about 4-6btdc which will lose you a bit of power & throttle response at lower revs but it isn't really a problem.
An afpr (auxiliary fuel pressure regulator) is a very basic fuelling solution so isn't needed if you have the Powercard.
You won't need to change the fuel pump at standard power unless your existing one is getting a bit tired in which case it might as well be replaced with an uprated one.

Once you have the Moss kit fitted for a while you might think about upgrading for more power/better economy/better control over fuel & timing in which case the first step would be to replace the PC with something like an eManage blue which has custom maps for the fuelling & timing. When you have that you are then in a position to start upgrading things - bigger injectors, smaller pulleys etc to allow for more power.

This is all good stuff to know in regards to your last paragraph, so this is this all possible with the Moss kit if for some strange reason I do desire more power a year or so down the line?

[MX-5 Lazza]

Well it's easy enough to check to see if the PC is causing a problem. Tie the bypass open so that you are effectively running na. The PC will only do anything when it sees boost so if you are still getting the same thing with no boost then it probably isn't the PC. They are usually pretty robust though.

It does sound like leads but if you say it isn't then I guess coils are worth a look. Can you maybe borrow a coil pack from someone else to test with before shelling out for replacements?

Other possibles are the O2 sensor or temp sensor.
Do you have an O2 clamp?