MX5 - Decisions
Discussion
Hi guys,
I've been lingering around the mx5 section for the past couple of months and am trying to decide what I want to do for my next car.
I currently drive a Renault Clio 172, but am looking to move over to a 5.
I'm unsure of what mark I fancy. I toyed with the idea of buying a mk1 which has already been supercharged.
Then, I saw a very nice BBR turbo for sale which was just over my budget.
However, another part of me says that I should just buy a 1.8 mk2, with an lsd, and some options for comfort (pas, e/w, etc.) and then wait a while and get it supercharged when I can afford it.
I got a quote on a 1.8 Eunos V special, which came out at almost double what I can insure a UK car for.
Are all the imports this expensive to cover?
I've been lingering around the mx5 section for the past couple of months and am trying to decide what I want to do for my next car.
I currently drive a Renault Clio 172, but am looking to move over to a 5.
I'm unsure of what mark I fancy. I toyed with the idea of buying a mk1 which has already been supercharged.
Then, I saw a very nice BBR turbo for sale which was just over my budget.
However, another part of me says that I should just buy a 1.8 mk2, with an lsd, and some options for comfort (pas, e/w, etc.) and then wait a while and get it supercharged when I can afford it.
I got a quote on a 1.8 Eunos V special, which came out at almost double what I can insure a UK car for.
Are all the imports this expensive to cover?
cyprinis said:
However, another part of me says that I should just buy a 1.8 mk2, with an lsd, and some options for comfort (pas, e/w, etc.) and then wait a while and get it supercharged when I can afford it.
That's what I did...and I don't regret it. They all have PAS, electric windows and mirrors (AFAIK). Beyond that I think it's leather, heated seats and aircon - not much more in the way of options available.I used to have a Clio 182 and I now own a mk1 RS LTD with a JR M45 supercharger.
Personally, I think you'd love it.
I've had mine looked at by an MX-5 expert to make sure everything was hunky dory and his butt dyno estimated it to be about 175 bhp. Not a huge amount of power, but a decent amount, particularly for a 950 kg Roadster. Performance up to about 100 would be more or less on par with a Clio 182, which is what it needs.
I've driven a standard 5, and to be honest, the supercharger really transforms the car for me. It turns it into one which can feel quite gutless into an altogether punchier and more effortless machine. No longer does it have to be screwed to the red line to make progress, it is strong in the midrange - I think it would show a Clio 182 a thing or two in the midrange - I also used to have a Fabia vRS (229 lb ft) and the Mazda is just as quick in the midrange as that was! It makes overtaking simply effortless, and you can do it one gear higher than in a car like a 182.
And bear in mind that mine will be near the bottom level of power for a supercharged car. With this level of power, you can run all standard bits just fine. Start upgrading to more power, and it gets much more expensive pretty quickly, and *potentially* less reliable (not saying it will be, but this is true as a general rule).
I've never driven a Turbo, but if I was starting from scratch, I'd still get the supercharger to be honest (but I'd consider an MP62 - a bit more potential out of the box). Why? Well, I just think its more in keeping with the character of the car. It basically feels like the same car, just with more power at all points of the rev range. Not only that, but the sound it makes more than makes up for it being a 4 pot (although supercharger whine is like marmite, some people hate it, I personally like it). With the turbo, what you get is more potential for power, considerably more torque, but somehow I cant help but feel it'd change the character of the car. I realise that a relatively small turbo with a good ECU mapping will be as lag free as one can expect, there's still going to be SOME lag. Also, my understanding of turbos is that the smaller they are, the quicker / faster / earlier they will spin up, but they will struggle a little more at the top end of the rev range, whereas a larger turbo will give much more power, but mostly at higher revs with more lag low down. I think supercharged cars sound better too. Each to their own, obviously.
WIth the supercharger, what you get is not too dissimilar to an MX-5 with a much larger capacity engine. Mine I would say feels like I've got a 2.5-litre engine under the bonnet (having driven cars with those sizes of engine). It's smooth, effotlessly powerful and punchy and yet still as revvy as you like. But theres no doubt about it, if you want raw speed / power, turbo will be the way to go.
It will be cheaper to get one done already, however, you can never be 100% sure of the quality of the workmanship. Mine on the face of it, seemed like a bargain, but it had a few gremlins and other jobs needing done (and still does) and overall, I've spent approaching £1000 already sorting out the bits that needed sorting. However, it is now a thoroughly fun car to drive.
I'd say potentially, the '5 when supercharged could even be *slightly* quicker on the twisties than a 182. I say potentially, because I really dont have the skill / bottle to do it. I can fair hussle it along, but a good driver could cover a B-road ridiculously quickly in a '5. Basically, unlike the Clio, which is 150 kg heavier, and F/FWD, the '5 is a F/RWD car with almost 50/50 weight distribution. THe steering will be a revelation in feedback and purity after the Clio. Not to mention the midrange power of the SC'd '5. As long as you accept that unless you are a very good driver, and also that a lot of modern cars are certainly quicker in a straight line, that you probably wont be the fastest car on the road, then you'll have a lot of fun with it.
Its actually a very licence friendly car. Its more effortless at building up speed, and conveys speed much better. 70 - 80 down a B-road in one of these is really exciting. Roof down motoring is a revelation if you havent experienced it before.
They do have a rather effemenate image, but anyone who puts these cars down as "girls cars" simply knows nothing about cars AFAIC. I did have my reservations, but I'm glad I got one. But then again, my mates used to call my 182 a girls car too, so its no worse.
I would urge you to go for a supercharged car. If you drive both NA and SC'd, I'd almost guarantee you would much prefer the SC'd one. It turns it into a far better car IMO. Gives it the performance the chassis was screaming out for. The standard one is still a great car, and can still be driven with gusto (I'd say generally, an NA wouldnt be any slower on the twisties), but the SC makes it a different proposition.
My last car was an ITR, and I was worried that it wouldnt live up to my expectations. However, as a drivers car, I think a SC'd '5 is in a league above an ITR, which itself was a league above a Clio 182. I dont think you'd be disappointed, but you might be if you went for an NA one. When I drove the NA car, I actually had the 182 at the time, and I decided not to go for it, despite still liking it.
Running costs should generally be cheaper too. Tyres and parts are much less expensive. A SC'd '5 likes a drink though. My last tank was 25 MPG, and with SC'd cars you are advised to use Super Unleaded to prevent knock / detonation. However, you'll be used to using that anyway the clio. Its not inconceivable you could get low to mid 30's if you drive like a granny though (whereas the clio could get low to mid 40's).
Anyway, sorry for the extremely long post, I've just rambled a bit, but I say do it, you wont be disappointed.
Oh and one other thing. If you can, try and get one like mine (RS-Ltd). You get Kevlar Recaros, BBS alloys, Bilstein suspension and a few other niceties. They will hold their value better, and are more fun to drive (lighter and better dampers). You wont find a more raw car this side of an Elise / Caterham / TVR etc...
Personally, I think you'd love it.
I've had mine looked at by an MX-5 expert to make sure everything was hunky dory and his butt dyno estimated it to be about 175 bhp. Not a huge amount of power, but a decent amount, particularly for a 950 kg Roadster. Performance up to about 100 would be more or less on par with a Clio 182, which is what it needs.
I've driven a standard 5, and to be honest, the supercharger really transforms the car for me. It turns it into one which can feel quite gutless into an altogether punchier and more effortless machine. No longer does it have to be screwed to the red line to make progress, it is strong in the midrange - I think it would show a Clio 182 a thing or two in the midrange - I also used to have a Fabia vRS (229 lb ft) and the Mazda is just as quick in the midrange as that was! It makes overtaking simply effortless, and you can do it one gear higher than in a car like a 182.
And bear in mind that mine will be near the bottom level of power for a supercharged car. With this level of power, you can run all standard bits just fine. Start upgrading to more power, and it gets much more expensive pretty quickly, and *potentially* less reliable (not saying it will be, but this is true as a general rule).
I've never driven a Turbo, but if I was starting from scratch, I'd still get the supercharger to be honest (but I'd consider an MP62 - a bit more potential out of the box). Why? Well, I just think its more in keeping with the character of the car. It basically feels like the same car, just with more power at all points of the rev range. Not only that, but the sound it makes more than makes up for it being a 4 pot (although supercharger whine is like marmite, some people hate it, I personally like it). With the turbo, what you get is more potential for power, considerably more torque, but somehow I cant help but feel it'd change the character of the car. I realise that a relatively small turbo with a good ECU mapping will be as lag free as one can expect, there's still going to be SOME lag. Also, my understanding of turbos is that the smaller they are, the quicker / faster / earlier they will spin up, but they will struggle a little more at the top end of the rev range, whereas a larger turbo will give much more power, but mostly at higher revs with more lag low down. I think supercharged cars sound better too. Each to their own, obviously.
WIth the supercharger, what you get is not too dissimilar to an MX-5 with a much larger capacity engine. Mine I would say feels like I've got a 2.5-litre engine under the bonnet (having driven cars with those sizes of engine). It's smooth, effotlessly powerful and punchy and yet still as revvy as you like. But theres no doubt about it, if you want raw speed / power, turbo will be the way to go.
It will be cheaper to get one done already, however, you can never be 100% sure of the quality of the workmanship. Mine on the face of it, seemed like a bargain, but it had a few gremlins and other jobs needing done (and still does) and overall, I've spent approaching £1000 already sorting out the bits that needed sorting. However, it is now a thoroughly fun car to drive.
I'd say potentially, the '5 when supercharged could even be *slightly* quicker on the twisties than a 182. I say potentially, because I really dont have the skill / bottle to do it. I can fair hussle it along, but a good driver could cover a B-road ridiculously quickly in a '5. Basically, unlike the Clio, which is 150 kg heavier, and F/FWD, the '5 is a F/RWD car with almost 50/50 weight distribution. THe steering will be a revelation in feedback and purity after the Clio. Not to mention the midrange power of the SC'd '5. As long as you accept that unless you are a very good driver, and also that a lot of modern cars are certainly quicker in a straight line, that you probably wont be the fastest car on the road, then you'll have a lot of fun with it.
Its actually a very licence friendly car. Its more effortless at building up speed, and conveys speed much better. 70 - 80 down a B-road in one of these is really exciting. Roof down motoring is a revelation if you havent experienced it before.
They do have a rather effemenate image, but anyone who puts these cars down as "girls cars" simply knows nothing about cars AFAIC. I did have my reservations, but I'm glad I got one. But then again, my mates used to call my 182 a girls car too, so its no worse.
I would urge you to go for a supercharged car. If you drive both NA and SC'd, I'd almost guarantee you would much prefer the SC'd one. It turns it into a far better car IMO. Gives it the performance the chassis was screaming out for. The standard one is still a great car, and can still be driven with gusto (I'd say generally, an NA wouldnt be any slower on the twisties), but the SC makes it a different proposition.
My last car was an ITR, and I was worried that it wouldnt live up to my expectations. However, as a drivers car, I think a SC'd '5 is in a league above an ITR, which itself was a league above a Clio 182. I dont think you'd be disappointed, but you might be if you went for an NA one. When I drove the NA car, I actually had the 182 at the time, and I decided not to go for it, despite still liking it.
Running costs should generally be cheaper too. Tyres and parts are much less expensive. A SC'd '5 likes a drink though. My last tank was 25 MPG, and with SC'd cars you are advised to use Super Unleaded to prevent knock / detonation. However, you'll be used to using that anyway the clio. Its not inconceivable you could get low to mid 30's if you drive like a granny though (whereas the clio could get low to mid 40's).
Anyway, sorry for the extremely long post, I've just rambled a bit, but I say do it, you wont be disappointed.
Oh and one other thing. If you can, try and get one like mine (RS-Ltd). You get Kevlar Recaros, BBS alloys, Bilstein suspension and a few other niceties. They will hold their value better, and are more fun to drive (lighter and better dampers). You wont find a more raw car this side of an Elise / Caterham / TVR etc...
Edited by pbirkett on Saturday 29th August 12:54
pbirkett - Thanks for that, that's just the sort of response I was hoping for.
I thought the same as you; That if I drove a standard 5, I would be dissapointed with the amount of power/grunt that it has. I'm by no means inexperienced with rear wheel drive cars, having had an MR2 with 270bhp, and a S13 with closer to 300, so I'm sure that I'd be fine with it in handling terms. I also thought that I would go with a supercharger due to the lack of lag, which is something that I haven't had before.
How much did you pay for the car, if you don't mind me asking, and what sort of increase was there on the premium when taking the modifications into account?
There don't seem to be many SC'd 5's for sale at the moment, hopefully as the weather declines people will decide that they do not want a convertible, or want something more practical and I will be inundated with choices!
With regard to the mpg, I currently get 30mpg consistently with the cloio, as the vast majority of my driving in it is urban, commuting etc. When I collected the car, I averaged 45mpg at 70mph
However the slight loss of economy is not an issue, as I've just sold my motorbike, so have lots of extra monies to play with! 
I thought the same as you; That if I drove a standard 5, I would be dissapointed with the amount of power/grunt that it has. I'm by no means inexperienced with rear wheel drive cars, having had an MR2 with 270bhp, and a S13 with closer to 300, so I'm sure that I'd be fine with it in handling terms. I also thought that I would go with a supercharger due to the lack of lag, which is something that I haven't had before.
How much did you pay for the car, if you don't mind me asking, and what sort of increase was there on the premium when taking the modifications into account?
There don't seem to be many SC'd 5's for sale at the moment, hopefully as the weather declines people will decide that they do not want a convertible, or want something more practical and I will be inundated with choices!
With regard to the mpg, I currently get 30mpg consistently with the cloio, as the vast majority of my driving in it is urban, commuting etc. When I collected the car, I averaged 45mpg at 70mph
However the slight loss of economy is not an issue, as I've just sold my motorbike, so have lots of extra monies to play with! No probs
I think given your car history, you might well be disappointed with a standard '5 in performance terms. Thats not to say they arent good cars without the extra power, because they are, but they are just so much better with the extra power. And although some people go up to 250 bhp with these cars, I'd say it really wasnt neccesary for road driving, but each to their own. It'd certainly be thrilling with that kind of power though, but I think might just be too much for it really (I've read reports of people with cars of this power being able to spin up in every gear in the wet, and the first three in the dry. Not really sure i see the point of that).
I paid £3900 for mine but have spent £800 so far getting it to a standard I deem acceptable. I still anticipate having to spend a further £400 or so before its properly up to spec. Still, thats just over £5k for a car with approx 187 bhp / tonne, 2-seat, reliable, cheap to run RWD sports car.
Cant comment on the insurance, as I just simply had it transferred straight across from when I had my ITR, but I know that its no more costly than that was (and that car was completely standard!).
The economy thing is pretty much the only thing letting it down, but since I changed the plugs and leads it seems a bit better. Still, I doubt I'd ever manage to get much more than about high 20's to early 30's out of it in general use.
I think given your car history, you might well be disappointed with a standard '5 in performance terms. Thats not to say they arent good cars without the extra power, because they are, but they are just so much better with the extra power. And although some people go up to 250 bhp with these cars, I'd say it really wasnt neccesary for road driving, but each to their own. It'd certainly be thrilling with that kind of power though, but I think might just be too much for it really (I've read reports of people with cars of this power being able to spin up in every gear in the wet, and the first three in the dry. Not really sure i see the point of that).
I paid £3900 for mine but have spent £800 so far getting it to a standard I deem acceptable. I still anticipate having to spend a further £400 or so before its properly up to spec. Still, thats just over £5k for a car with approx 187 bhp / tonne, 2-seat, reliable, cheap to run RWD sports car.
Cant comment on the insurance, as I just simply had it transferred straight across from when I had my ITR, but I know that its no more costly than that was (and that car was completely standard!).
The economy thing is pretty much the only thing letting it down, but since I changed the plugs and leads it seems a bit better. Still, I doubt I'd ever manage to get much more than about high 20's to early 30's out of it in general use.
cyprinis said:
pbirkett - Thanks for that, that's just the sort of response I was hoping for.
I thought the same as you; That if I drove a standard 5, I would be dissapointed with the amount of power/grunt that it has. I'm by no means inexperienced with rear wheel drive cars, having had an MR2 with 270bhp, and a S13 with closer to 300, so I'm sure that I'd be fine with it in handling terms. I also thought that I would go with a supercharger due to the lack of lag, which is something that I haven't had before.
How much did you pay for the car, if you don't mind me asking, and what sort of increase was there on the premium when taking the modifications into account?
There don't seem to be many SC'd 5's for sale at the moment, hopefully as the weather declines people will decide that they do not want a convertible, or want something more practical and I will be inundated with choices!
With regard to the mpg, I currently get 30mpg consistently with the cloio, as the vast majority of my driving in it is urban, commuting etc. When I collected the car, I averaged 45mpg at 70mph However the slight loss of economy is not an issue, as I've just sold my motorbike, so have lots of extra monies to play with!
I thought the same as you; That if I drove a standard 5, I would be dissapointed with the amount of power/grunt that it has. I'm by no means inexperienced with rear wheel drive cars, having had an MR2 with 270bhp, and a S13 with closer to 300, so I'm sure that I'd be fine with it in handling terms. I also thought that I would go with a supercharger due to the lack of lag, which is something that I haven't had before.
How much did you pay for the car, if you don't mind me asking, and what sort of increase was there on the premium when taking the modifications into account?
There don't seem to be many SC'd 5's for sale at the moment, hopefully as the weather declines people will decide that they do not want a convertible, or want something more practical and I will be inundated with choices!
With regard to the mpg, I currently get 30mpg consistently with the cloio, as the vast majority of my driving in it is urban, commuting etc. When I collected the car, I averaged 45mpg at 70mph
However the slight loss of economy is not an issue, as I've just sold my motorbike, so have lots of extra monies to play with! I've just come across a mk1 mx5 for sale at reasonable money, and with a new and unfitted supercharger (the Eaton M45) which would be included subject to negotiation. The car is an import, and I just called my insurance company (Bell) and got them to quote me. It will be no more expensive than the clio!
I'm hoping to go and see it tomorrow, and was wondering if there is anything specific that I should be looking out for above the usual?
I'm hoping to go and see it tomorrow, and was wondering if there is anything specific that I should be looking out for above the usual?
cyprinis said:
What were you driving before the 5, Nfo?
Just a 1.6 Focus, so the MX-5 feels pretty nippy in comparison 
Not a patch on the turbo SAAB I had though - similar sort of power (175bhp) in '5 would be very nice to have. As standard it certainly doesn't have 'pull out and go' overtaking power...nfo said:
cyprinis said:
What were you driving before the 5, Nfo?
Just a 1.6 Focus, so the MX-5 feels pretty nippy in comparison Not a patch on the turbo SAAB I had though - similar sort of power (175bhp) in '5 would be very nice to have. As standard it certainly doesn't have 'pull out and go' overtaking power...Hopefully going tomorrow now, Have found out that it has a dent in the nearside front wing, but everything else is good apparently. Just been taxed too.
The charger is from a Mini Cooper S, and can be fitted to the car, just a case of fabricating a few brackets, and 1 or 2 other bits and pieces (Optimistic?). Anyone with any experience of doing the install?
The charger is from a Mini Cooper S, and can be fitted to the car, just a case of fabricating a few brackets, and 1 or 2 other bits and pieces (Optimistic?). Anyone with any experience of doing the install?
I bought a mk2 sport yesterday - I cant imagine how it'd feel with a supercharger/turbo - but its great NA. Not the aggressive torque of a clio 182 (which my best mate has) - but it still does the numbers quite nicely, the gearbox helps in this regard though. Try a healthy one, and give it the full revs/quick shifts - I found it pleasantly quick. Not as outright fast as my mates 182, but I cant think there is that much in it, will find out soon enough... The clio's torque makes it feel fast (and they are) I reckon the mx5 isnt *massively* behind it, but it doesnt feel that quick in terms of accelleration. That said, it equally doesnt throw up its lamda warning light every now and again, or have its exhausts rust through at 3 years old. 
Dont get me wrong, my mates 182 is epic, I'd have it in a shot, but I am no longer quite as jealous of him now I have the mazer. Top down, in tunnels 5k to 7krpm, borla's screaming - things dont get much better, and a couple of tenths just dont matter.
Try it NA, its a different type of car, a damn good one.
Dont get me wrong, my mates 182 is epic, I'd have it in a shot, but I am no longer quite as jealous of him now I have the mazer. Top down, in tunnels 5k to 7krpm, borla's screaming - things dont get much better, and a couple of tenths just dont matter.
Try it NA, its a different type of car, a damn good one.
Fabricating brackets shouldn't be a problem, and megasquirt engine management is apparently the way to go. I'll admit it doesn't seem as straightforward as I first thought.
I am thinking that waiting for a 2nd hand kit to come up at mx5ives is a better option, and they will fit it for an extra cost. Meaning I will negotiate without the supercharger included tomorrow.
I am thinking that waiting for a 2nd hand kit to come up at mx5ives is a better option, and they will fit it for an extra cost. Meaning I will negotiate without the supercharger included tomorrow.
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