Supercharging.....
Discussion
I know there have been a couple of threads about it over the last few weeks, and this is what has piqued my interest.
Few questions:
1: How much to fit a MK1 1.8 Eunos with a supercharger? - nothing too fancy so what do the costs range over?
2: How much added stress does it place on the engine / other bits and pieces?
3: What sort of performance increase are you looking at from standard?
4: Anything else i should know?
Few questions:
1: How much to fit a MK1 1.8 Eunos with a supercharger? - nothing too fancy so what do the costs range over?
2: How much added stress does it place on the engine / other bits and pieces?
3: What sort of performance increase are you looking at from standard?
4: Anything else i should know?
1: How much to fit a MK1 1.8 Eunos with a supercharger? - nothing too fancy so what do the costs range over?
From around £1000 to £££££££££££££££ with a 1.8 you have the choice of M45 (cheap but limited) or MP62 (more expensive but no more limited than a quality turbo)
2: How much added stress does it place on the engine / other bits and pieces?
On a 1.8 you are fine up to around 270bhp as long as it's well mapped.
3: What sort of performance increase are you looking at from standard?
Hard to quantify. Need to experience it to understand.
4: Anything else i should know?
Insurance will go up.
Fuel will disappear quicker (especially if you "enjoy" it).
You might think that xxx is enough power. It won't be. It never is
From around £1000 to £££££££££££££££ with a 1.8 you have the choice of M45 (cheap but limited) or MP62 (more expensive but no more limited than a quality turbo)
2: How much added stress does it place on the engine / other bits and pieces?
On a 1.8 you are fine up to around 270bhp as long as it's well mapped.
3: What sort of performance increase are you looking at from standard?
Hard to quantify. Need to experience it to understand.
4: Anything else i should know?
Insurance will go up.
Fuel will disappear quicker (especially if you "enjoy" it).
You might think that xxx is enough power. It won't be. It never is
I'd probably say myself that the entry level M45 kit would be good enough for someone who wants something cheapish and reliable. £1k ish for the kit (s/hand). As for the power not being enough, I find mine enough really, kicking out about 180 bhp and weighs 950 kg... but obviously it depends how much raw speed matters to you - if it does, I'd suggest buying something else.
I was told that the standard cars components overall were good for up to about 200 bhp. After that, you'll be starting to replace bits with uprated parts which of course = £££££
Compared to a standard car, even the entry level kit makes it feel a lot more "grunty", and with 180 bhp, you'll be at hot hatch territory, which is the power it should have had in the first place IMHO. Even so its not really about straight line speed, but for me, makes it an easier car to live with and more pleasant to drive.
As for the fuel thing, the previous poster was correct, it will drink a fair bit if you use the performance - circa 20 - 25 MPG on Super Unleaded!
I was told that the standard cars components overall were good for up to about 200 bhp. After that, you'll be starting to replace bits with uprated parts which of course = £££££
Compared to a standard car, even the entry level kit makes it feel a lot more "grunty", and with 180 bhp, you'll be at hot hatch territory, which is the power it should have had in the first place IMHO. Even so its not really about straight line speed, but for me, makes it an easier car to live with and more pleasant to drive.
As for the fuel thing, the previous poster was correct, it will drink a fair bit if you use the performance - circa 20 - 25 MPG on Super Unleaded!
Raw speed doesn't matter that much to me. I don't drive any faster than anyone else, in fact I probably drive my 1.8 Focus faster. I do like acceleration though. As for it not being the right car for me, I think it's exactly the right car for me. I could have had an S2000, Boxster or Elise but I prefer to have a fast MX5 that can match or beat all of those. Anyone who thinks an MX5 can't be a match for them is underestimating the car.
I did say that fuel will go quicker. However, I generally get about 28mpg which is about what I got before FI. If I actually use some of the power I have then of course the mpg drops (about 10mpg on track for example) but loads of torque and long gearing with the 6-speed box means I can keep the revs down and still travel rapidly.
I'm investing in an Adaptronic to replace the eManage and once thats fitted I expect the mpg to improve again and for power to increase to around 240-245bhp. The chassis and transmission can handle that easily - I have around 230bhp at the moment and am still running the stock clutch - it been that way for 50k miles now and it's never shown any signs of stress. I'm not saying an 80k miles 1.8 mk1 won't need a new clutch if that much power is put through it but it's not as urgent as people seem to think.
I did say that fuel will go quicker. However, I generally get about 28mpg which is about what I got before FI. If I actually use some of the power I have then of course the mpg drops (about 10mpg on track for example) but loads of torque and long gearing with the 6-speed box means I can keep the revs down and still travel rapidly.
I'm investing in an Adaptronic to replace the eManage and once thats fitted I expect the mpg to improve again and for power to increase to around 240-245bhp. The chassis and transmission can handle that easily - I have around 230bhp at the moment and am still running the stock clutch - it been that way for 50k miles now and it's never shown any signs of stress. I'm not saying an 80k miles 1.8 mk1 won't need a new clutch if that much power is put through it but it's not as urgent as people seem to think.
Thanks for all the info so far guys. Very useful.
When you say about 1k for the kit - is that just to buy it or does that include fitting?
How much for fitting if not?
I was wondering if it might be cheaper to just buy a supercharged one but looking in the classifieds the cheapest i can find is over 3k for a pretty ropey one.
When you say about 1k for the kit - is that just to buy it or does that include fitting?
How much for fitting if not?
I was wondering if it might be cheaper to just buy a supercharged one but looking in the classifieds the cheapest i can find is over 3k for a pretty ropey one.
Dan_1981 said:
Thanks for all the info so far guys. Very useful.
When you say about 1k for the kit - is that just to buy it or does that include fitting?
How much for fitting if not?
I was wondering if it might be cheaper to just buy a supercharged one but looking in the classifieds the cheapest i can find is over 3k for a pretty ropey one.
£1k would be just for the kit, not including fitting.When you say about 1k for the kit - is that just to buy it or does that include fitting?
How much for fitting if not?
I was wondering if it might be cheaper to just buy a supercharged one but looking in the classifieds the cheapest i can find is over 3k for a pretty ropey one.
Fitting by someone who knew what they were doing would cost about a days labour - perhaps up to £500 depending where you would take it.
Yes it would be cheaper to buy one already done. I paid £3900 for a Mk1 RS Ltd with JRSC M45. I have however spent £600 in the last two months getting it to a better standard. I'd say £5k would get you a well sorted "lower power" version, and £6k would get you something with plenty of power. I'd imagine for £3k it might be a bit ropey.
Other than that, the biggest cost is fuel - but as MX5-lazza says if you can get one with a decent ECU + mapping it wont be too bad - mine is just the basic kit and includes a powercard, a crude system which overfuels. Does the job, and is safe, but drinks the juice. I average about 23 MPG. However, these cars arent noted for their fuel economy.
I keep toying with this... I'd love a Chim or something but I'm not sure it would be so chuckable as the '5.
So I could sell my car and get a sorted s/c car, or I could s/c my car
So the standard M45 kit would take a Mk.1 1.8 from 130 to 180bhp ish? Doesn't sound a bad return for £1500 or so...
So I could sell my car and get a sorted s/c car, or I could s/c my car
So the standard M45 kit would take a Mk.1 1.8 from 130 to 180bhp ish? Doesn't sound a bad return for £1500 or so...
The Cooper Works kit replaces the M45 with an M62 (I think) which is why there are so many ex-mini M45s littering ebay. This has far more headroom for power (300bhp should be possible on an MX5 1.8).
The M45 can be tweaked to give more power but it can all start to get quite expensive. Out of the box you should get 170-180bhp. Any more would need proper mapping (i.e. emanage or similar) and an intercooler/charge-cooler/water injection. These could take it to about 200bhp. To get more than that you would need to double-up so intercooler/charge-cooler AND water injection ideally with a better mapping solution i.e. a standalone ecu.
The problem is one of airflow. The M45 pumps 0.45L of air each revolution. The faster you spin it the more air it pumps. As it pumps air using compression this heats the air. The faster you spin it the more air it pumps and the hotter that air gets. There is a limit to how fast you can spin it and how much you can cool the resulting air.
An M62 pumps 0.62L of air each revolution so doesn't have to spin as fast or compress the air as much to create the same airflow so can make more power with less work.
The M45 can be tweaked to give more power but it can all start to get quite expensive. Out of the box you should get 170-180bhp. Any more would need proper mapping (i.e. emanage or similar) and an intercooler/charge-cooler/water injection. These could take it to about 200bhp. To get more than that you would need to double-up so intercooler/charge-cooler AND water injection ideally with a better mapping solution i.e. a standalone ecu.
The problem is one of airflow. The M45 pumps 0.45L of air each revolution. The faster you spin it the more air it pumps. As it pumps air using compression this heats the air. The faster you spin it the more air it pumps and the hotter that air gets. There is a limit to how fast you can spin it and how much you can cool the resulting air.
An M62 pumps 0.62L of air each revolution so doesn't have to spin as fast or compress the air as much to create the same airflow so can make more power with less work.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Where's a good place to look for the kits Lazza?
Do the basic ones include any type of management?
The basic kit comes with a "Powercard". This is a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Basically, its a safe solution that works pretty well but the down side is its more thirsty than having a dedicated ECU like megasquirt or emanage. However, to get a dedicated ECU and map it properly will be a LOT more expensive.Do the basic ones include any type of management?
My setup is exactly this, it runs quite well, but it runs rich. My average fuel economy is about 23 MPG (but I dont exactly drive gently). On the plus side, with the rich setup and stainless exhaust and decat, it makes some nice popping and banging noises
I agree with all of what MX-5 Lazza says, I wouldnt bother trying to get much more out of an M45 setup - just get the better one to start with if you want more than about 180 bhp. Personally I couldnt justify much more expense on a car which is basically worth very little, but thats just me. I imagine a one with more power would be a hoot, but not for someone whos either on a tight budget, or someone who isnt exactly mechanically minded like me. Get a basic setup installed and fitted professionally for about £1500 and you will more than likely have a car just as reliable as standard and able to run on all of the standard bits.
Very interesting article for those wanting cheap M45 kits here:
http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2...
http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2...
I've been looking into MX-5 FI quite seriously since this thread appeared and I was almost sold on looking for a second hand M45 / MP62 kit.
Yesterday I was speaking to a very well respected Mazda/MX-5 specialist who is not a fan of them at all. He said that every one that he has ever seen has sooner or later given problems. We were chatting about the engine being the same that was previously in a turbo 323 and he said that there were a lot of different parts, like the pistons.
Like I say, this guy really knows his stuff (he's ex main dealer and knows '5s inside out) and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge.
The perceived wisdom is that the MX-5 can take at least basic level FI without too much grief. I know there is always going to be a greater risk of failure, but I'm a bit down about what he said
Surely as long as it's well fitted and there is enough fuel to ensure running lean it should be OK? Should compression be lowered? Revised head gasket?
Took the '5 out for a blast today and remembered how much I like it. I really fancy a supercharger and roll bar and attacking some track days
Yesterday I was speaking to a very well respected Mazda/MX-5 specialist who is not a fan of them at all. He said that every one that he has ever seen has sooner or later given problems. We were chatting about the engine being the same that was previously in a turbo 323 and he said that there were a lot of different parts, like the pistons.
Like I say, this guy really knows his stuff (he's ex main dealer and knows '5s inside out) and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge.
The perceived wisdom is that the MX-5 can take at least basic level FI without too much grief. I know there is always going to be a greater risk of failure, but I'm a bit down about what he said
Surely as long as it's well fitted and there is enough fuel to ensure running lean it should be OK? Should compression be lowered? Revised head gasket?Took the '5 out for a blast today and remembered how much I like it. I really fancy a supercharger and roll bar and attacking some track days
This may be the daftest question of the thread, but what the hell - how feasible/overambitious would fitting a supercharger kit yourself be? I've glanced over some of the instruction manuals on Moss-Europe and it didn't seem extraordinarly complicated, just quite time consuming - the most I've done to my 5 is changed the alternator belt, though 
NiceCupOfTea said:
Yesterday I was speaking to a very well respected Mazda/MX-5 specialist who is not a fan of them at all. He said that every one that he has ever seen has sooner or later given problems.
Like I say, this guy really knows his stuff (he's ex main dealer and knows '5s inside out) and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge.
UTTER RUBBISH - Name and shame !Like I say, this guy really knows his stuff (he's ex main dealer and knows '5s inside out) and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge.
I have run SC'd 5's for 10 yrs without ANY problems. Well once mine threw a belt which cost a full £10 and 20 mins to fix.
Obviously there is std maintainance of the car and to check the belt etc but I have NEVER had to open up any SC, the most I've ever done was change the oil.
I've sold / fitted / maintained loads of SC'd 5's over the years - NO problems.
Now that's not to say that all the kits / cars I've bought have been without problems - quite the opposite but the same is true of all cars that have been 'maintained' by those without a clue.
Oh and for the OP, fitting is £250 from me.
Edited by OnlyMX5ives on Friday 4th September 21:10
I'd rather not name & shame - it was an off the cuff chat and I have 100% confidence in him; he has years and years' experience with Mazda & '5s including all the main dealer accreditation & stuff.
I suspect it is more that he has seen a lot of crap installs. As we all know if these things are done badly they can cause an engine to nuke itself very quickly.
I suspect it is more that he has seen a lot of crap installs. As we all know if these things are done badly they can cause an engine to nuke itself very quickly.
MX-5 Lazza said:
Raw speed doesn't matter that much to me. I don't drive any faster than anyone else, in fact I probably drive my 1.8 Focus faster. I do like acceleration though.
The trouble is when do you lift off when accelerating? I stopped using my MX5 on the road and got something sensible and slow instead (VX200) as I'd drive to work on the nice empty a/b roads and accelerate out of bends,.. I'd keep my foot in until the point where I thought I should be braking or slowing for the bend or hazard. In a normal car say a 140bhp honda this would result in 80mph maybe being reached, in the fast sports car sa a VX200 105mph, in the silly turbo MX5 I'd see 120 appear on the clock and think I could still accelerate for a few more seconds but relly shouldn't... it all gets a bit much on the road. 200bhp/ton is the sweet spot for a road car and thats very easily accessable with an mx. More is too much for the road hence I'm off to Silverstone tomorrow NiceCupOfTea said:
Yesterday I was speaking to a very well respected Mazda/MX-5 specialist who is not a fan of them at all. He said that every one that he has ever seen has sooner or later given problems. We were chatting about the engine being the same that was previously in a turbo 323 and he said that there were a lot of different parts, like the pistons.
He's in the dark ages, lower comp pistons were late 80's/90's as the fueling and ignition computers were not up to scratch, today its a different ball game. The guys out of touch. 250bhp/220lbs for almost 3 years worth of trackdays now and all happy.Gassing Station | Mazda MX5/Roadster/Miata | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff