Anyone here sprint or hillclimb an MX5?
Discussion
(Ok, I know at least one person does...)
Just wondered who here does speed events in an MX5 and specifically does anyone use a car running forced induction?
If so, what class does that put you in and do you find you're competitive with the non-Mazda offerings? I figured a 200bhp MX5 should start to give things like standard Elises a run for their money, but that's assuming it's allowed in the same class. I suppose a FI car would be classed as modified rather than standard road?
Just wondered who here does speed events in an MX5 and specifically does anyone use a car running forced induction?
If so, what class does that put you in and do you find you're competitive with the non-Mazda offerings? I figured a 200bhp MX5 should start to give things like standard Elises a run for their money, but that's assuming it's allowed in the same class. I suppose a FI car would be classed as modified rather than standard road?
Chris,
You're right that an FI MX-5 would give a standard Elise a run for the money but you would rarely (if ever) be in the same class. This is because of the rule relating to FI equivalence (ie you multiply the engine cc by 1.4) and the rule that in roadgoing production class you have to run in the same capacity class as the manufacturers original spec. So, if you ran an 1840cc with forced induction, that is equivalent to 2580cc and so would force you into an over 2000cc class - and that ain't allowed.
The only exception would be where there was no 2000cc break in the class structure. So, for example, I run in the Scottish Championship in the Marque Road Sports class where there is no engine capacity breakdown. I could, in theory, run an FI MX-5 in that class. However, I would be up against an FI Exige so it would be a fruitless exercise.
Finally, in speed events, you are rarely up against a standard Elise. Most are modified (even in roadgoing production classes) to the extent that even 200bhp in an MX-5 would be about 100bhp short of being competitive.
However, I did manage to win two championship classes last year in my (fairly) standard MX-5 - and I even beat an S2 Elise on 1 event (rain helped me out!). Not forgetting that there is an MX-5 only class in the HSA championship which negates the need to worry about Elises at all!
Cheers,
Kev
You're right that an FI MX-5 would give a standard Elise a run for the money but you would rarely (if ever) be in the same class. This is because of the rule relating to FI equivalence (ie you multiply the engine cc by 1.4) and the rule that in roadgoing production class you have to run in the same capacity class as the manufacturers original spec. So, if you ran an 1840cc with forced induction, that is equivalent to 2580cc and so would force you into an over 2000cc class - and that ain't allowed.
The only exception would be where there was no 2000cc break in the class structure. So, for example, I run in the Scottish Championship in the Marque Road Sports class where there is no engine capacity breakdown. I could, in theory, run an FI MX-5 in that class. However, I would be up against an FI Exige so it would be a fruitless exercise.
Finally, in speed events, you are rarely up against a standard Elise. Most are modified (even in roadgoing production classes) to the extent that even 200bhp in an MX-5 would be about 100bhp short of being competitive.
However, I did manage to win two championship classes last year in my (fairly) standard MX-5 - and I even beat an S2 Elise on 1 event (rain helped me out!). Not forgetting that there is an MX-5 only class in the HSA championship which negates the need to worry about Elises at all!
Cheers,
Kev
Edited by kevham on Monday 18th May 21:20
Hi Kev,
That's kind of what I feared.
I'm attracted to an MX5 track car because of the plentiful supply of knowledge, upgrades and cheap spares, plus the fact it'll be far more comfortable to drive to events than a Westfield or something.
The problem is I only really want to do local-ish events and the HSA championship is spread right out with no events particularly near me. Investigating the local club (HCAAC) events the majority of the field is in the kit car class where Lotus 7 type cars are bundled in with the (admittedly non-kit) Lotuses.
Is it safe to assume a standard 1.8 MX5 would be out of its depth against the hot hatches and sports cars in 'road going up to 2000cc'?
That's kind of what I feared.
I'm attracted to an MX5 track car because of the plentiful supply of knowledge, upgrades and cheap spares, plus the fact it'll be far more comfortable to drive to events than a Westfield or something.
The problem is I only really want to do local-ish events and the HSA championship is spread right out with no events particularly near me. Investigating the local club (HCAAC) events the majority of the field is in the kit car class where Lotus 7 type cars are bundled in with the (admittedly non-kit) Lotuses.
Is it safe to assume a standard 1.8 MX5 would be out of its depth against the hot hatches and sports cars in 'road going up to 2000cc'?
looking at this weekends results from Loton Park, its a bit difficult to give a firm answer as the conditions were changable (dry one minute, throwing it down the next) and i cant remember who was new to the hill or not.
but
Class 1B - Roadgoing 1400-2000cc consisted of Honda S2000, MX5s (both 1.6 & 1.8) renault 5, toyota MR2 (mk2) pug 205gti and a few others.
the class record is held by an elise at 60.77sec
the MX5s ran 70-75secs between the 4 drivers, the S2000 did a 65sec run and a failed run. (won the class), renault 5 did 68 and 71sec runs (shared drive)
the pug 205 varied between 65secs (local driver, won the class on sunday) and 80secs
MR2 did 75-80sec runs.
i would say - what ever you start competing in - you wont be challenging for the class wins and championship trophy in your first season - but you will learn alot.
At Harewood theres a father and son who have been campaigning in their old Nissan Micra over the last 3 years - as its explotable, cheap to run, and they've learnt alot about car set up and handling and are now doing better in the club championship.
but
Class 1B - Roadgoing 1400-2000cc consisted of Honda S2000, MX5s (both 1.6 & 1.8) renault 5, toyota MR2 (mk2) pug 205gti and a few others.
the class record is held by an elise at 60.77sec
the MX5s ran 70-75secs between the 4 drivers, the S2000 did a 65sec run and a failed run. (won the class), renault 5 did 68 and 71sec runs (shared drive)
the pug 205 varied between 65secs (local driver, won the class on sunday) and 80secs
MR2 did 75-80sec runs.
i would say - what ever you start competing in - you wont be challenging for the class wins and championship trophy in your first season - but you will learn alot.
At Harewood theres a father and son who have been campaigning in their old Nissan Micra over the last 3 years - as its explotable, cheap to run, and they've learnt alot about car set up and handling and are now doing better in the club championship.
The MX-5s problem is power to weight. There's only so much that sublime handling can compensate for!
I've competed against MR2s, MGFs, Elises, 205Gti, 205Rallye, 106, Saxos, 306GTi, Puma, Astra, TVR Griffs, Porsche Boxster, 944 etc and can generally hold my head up against them (especially if I know the course and they dont!). However, I cannot often compete for a class win. Road classes at April sprint at Teesside (fine weather all day) broke down like this:
Peugeot 205R = 54.05
Toyota MR2 = 55.16
MG F VVC = 55.48
MX5 1.8i (me) = 56.20
Honda Civic VTi = 56.75
MG F VVC = 56.80
Peugeot 106R = 56.94
Peugeot 106R = 57.21
Peugeot 306GTi-6 = 57.29
MX5 2.0Sport (Mk3) = 58.97
Even something as simple as a 205Rallye with only 100bhp wins out because of its power to weight ratio (only weighs 760kg). So - I'm not doing it to win but I can usually mix it up if there are no Elises there.
However, I took a very early decision that I would compete against myself (improving times) and rather than spend lots of money on my car, I would spend the money on seat time and events. This year, I'm doing 28 competitive events at 11 different venues. The MX5 is a great car to learn in because it is RWD, predictable and forgiving. I'm hoping that the experience I'll have gained over my first 3-4 years will stand me in good stead when I move up to something a bit faster!
Hope this helps.
I've competed against MR2s, MGFs, Elises, 205Gti, 205Rallye, 106, Saxos, 306GTi, Puma, Astra, TVR Griffs, Porsche Boxster, 944 etc and can generally hold my head up against them (especially if I know the course and they dont!). However, I cannot often compete for a class win. Road classes at April sprint at Teesside (fine weather all day) broke down like this:
Peugeot 205R = 54.05
Toyota MR2 = 55.16
MG F VVC = 55.48
MX5 1.8i (me) = 56.20
Honda Civic VTi = 56.75
MG F VVC = 56.80
Peugeot 106R = 56.94
Peugeot 106R = 57.21
Peugeot 306GTi-6 = 57.29
MX5 2.0Sport (Mk3) = 58.97
Even something as simple as a 205Rallye with only 100bhp wins out because of its power to weight ratio (only weighs 760kg). So - I'm not doing it to win but I can usually mix it up if there are no Elises there.
However, I took a very early decision that I would compete against myself (improving times) and rather than spend lots of money on my car, I would spend the money on seat time and events. This year, I'm doing 28 competitive events at 11 different venues. The MX5 is a great car to learn in because it is RWD, predictable and forgiving. I'm hoping that the experience I'll have gained over my first 3-4 years will stand me in good stead when I move up to something a bit faster!
Hope this helps.
from a marshal point of view (rather than a competitor) there are alot of daily drivers that take part.
your standard 3 point belt is OK, you dont need a roll bar. i think the basic things you need to do to pass scruts is have the negative cable marked with yellow tape. mark where the towing points are located, a sticker by your ignition key to show the direction to turn the engine off. (the stickers are available (i'm guessing) from the likes of Demon Tweeks. and a Timing Strut fixed to the front of the car (alot of people use a numberplate screw to fix the strut to the front.
other than that - you need a Proban suit, or single layer nomex suit (may have changed this year) MSA approved Helmet (it needs to be a full face, or have a face visor or googles if wearing an open face visor if you plan on competing with the roof down.)
oh and remove any loose items from the car - face off panel of the stereo, spare wheel from the boot, empty the glove box, rubbish from the passenger footwell.
you can, i think within the rules of the road going, fit harnesses and a roll bar/cage if you wish. but the interior needs to remain to stay in the road going.
your standard 3 point belt is OK, you dont need a roll bar. i think the basic things you need to do to pass scruts is have the negative cable marked with yellow tape. mark where the towing points are located, a sticker by your ignition key to show the direction to turn the engine off. (the stickers are available (i'm guessing) from the likes of Demon Tweeks. and a Timing Strut fixed to the front of the car (alot of people use a numberplate screw to fix the strut to the front.
other than that - you need a Proban suit, or single layer nomex suit (may have changed this year) MSA approved Helmet (it needs to be a full face, or have a face visor or googles if wearing an open face visor if you plan on competing with the roof down.)
oh and remove any loose items from the car - face off panel of the stereo, spare wheel from the boot, empty the glove box, rubbish from the passenger footwell.
you can, i think within the rules of the road going, fit harnesses and a roll bar/cage if you wish. but the interior needs to remain to stay in the road going.
Not sure you even need the towing points marked? It's remarkably simple to get a car prepared and all the stickers etc. are in the Demon Tweeks catalogue.
Getting the license is 5 minutes online and £45 (did this last week). More outlay is required for the helmet and suit however, as the requirements for MSA competitions are quite high (compared to a basic motorcycle/karting/track day lid) and I believe they're about to change at the end of this year, so the trick is to make sure you have something elligible from 2010 onwards.
The only thing that strikes me about sprinting is you get very little track time. In terms of track miles per pound, track days obliterate it. But after doing something similar to a sprint course against the clock on a driver training day a while back I found the competitive element (even if it's against yourself) quite exciting.
Hmmm. It's a dilema. I'm pretty sure an MX5 would be about the most simple and affordable route to a track car and I like the fact you can get just about every component and a multitude of performance parts from someone like P5 in a single phone call. However, I do quite like the idea of something a little quicker and perhaps a little more competitive with the sprint classes. If only there was an active MX5 'grid' with the local motor clubs it'd be ideal, but I don't have the time or money to follow the HSA championship right round the country!
Getting the license is 5 minutes online and £45 (did this last week). More outlay is required for the helmet and suit however, as the requirements for MSA competitions are quite high (compared to a basic motorcycle/karting/track day lid) and I believe they're about to change at the end of this year, so the trick is to make sure you have something elligible from 2010 onwards.
The only thing that strikes me about sprinting is you get very little track time. In terms of track miles per pound, track days obliterate it. But after doing something similar to a sprint course against the clock on a driver training day a while back I found the competitive element (even if it's against yourself) quite exciting.
Hmmm. It's a dilema. I'm pretty sure an MX5 would be about the most simple and affordable route to a track car and I like the fact you can get just about every component and a multitude of performance parts from someone like P5 in a single phone call. However, I do quite like the idea of something a little quicker and perhaps a little more competitive with the sprint classes. If only there was an active MX5 'grid' with the local motor clubs it'd be ideal, but I don't have the time or money to follow the HSA championship right round the country!
Chris71 said:
Hmmm. It's a dilema. I'm pretty sure an MX5 would be about the most simple and affordable route to a track car and I like the fact you can get just about every component and a multitude of performance parts from someone like P5 in a single phone call. However, I do quite like the idea of something a little quicker and perhaps a little more competitive with the sprint classes.
TBH - what ever you start sprinting/hillclimbing in - your not really going to be challenging for the class win or championship crown in your first few years, no matter what you drive. Since the main limiting factor on the cars performance is YOU when you start. your first year or 2 will you will mainly be competing against yourself to get your times down.From the bank, we can tell the new drivers from their lines, and how much speed they take through the corners - quite often the new driver looks like they are out for a sunday drive, compared to those that know the hill.
if you want a cheapish competitive car - the MX5 is a good starting point to begin - as is a pug 205, 106 Citroen AX or classic mini.
lord summerisle said:
TBH - what ever you start sprinting/hillclimbing in - your not really going to be challenging for the class win or championship crown in your first few years, no matter what you drive. Since the main limiting factor on the cars performance is YOU when you start. your first year or 2 will you will mainly be competing against yourself to get your times down.
True. And to be honest I may well never have the skill or the funds to compete against someone who's been doing it for ages and turns up with something on a trailer. However, it'd be good to have something which provides a yard stick as to just how far I am behind everything else.Point taken though, much as I'd like to be able compete, that probably will be irrelevant for quite some time!
I know this has been done to death elsehwere, but what are people's feeling on roll cages? Are they safe for occasional road use if you have a proper racing harness that locks you in position?
yes, with a proviso - you can do you head some damage if you crack your head on the bars in an accident. so padding should be fitted.
with regards starting to compete - Harewood Hill and Gurston Down (i think) Midland Automobile Club (Shesley Walsh and Curborough) and Prescott all run drivers schools which will teach you the best way to drive the hills and get the most out of your car and you. prices seem to be around £150 or so for a days instruction.
with regards starting to compete - Harewood Hill and Gurston Down (i think) Midland Automobile Club (Shesley Walsh and Curborough) and Prescott all run drivers schools which will teach you the best way to drive the hills and get the most out of your car and you. prices seem to be around £150 or so for a days instruction.
lord summerisle said:
yes, with a proviso - you can do you head some damage if you crack your head on the bars in an accident. so padding should be fitted.
That's what I was referring to - I've heard mumblings about people being killed in accidents on the road because of that. Yet I can't help thinking if the cage is far enough back (and/or up) and you're strapped in tightly to a race seat it must be pretty difficult to make contact with the roll cage? As someone else pointed out, the 911 GT3 and Megane R26R are sold to the general public with roll bars.you'd be suprised how much your neck can streatch in an accident 
chatting to one of the rescue guys at Loton Park the other week, he was showing us round their new rescue unit, and where they keep their gear...
one of the subjects of convo was about the increase uptake of the Hans device on in speed event drivers. they have come across accidents with single seat drivers while they are strapped in tightly in the car - they have moved enough in the straps, and their neck stretched enough that they've headbutted the steering wheel/front of the cockpit cowling!
its one of those things - yes you could do yourself an injury hitting the bar... but equally the car has no roll over protection should you roll it, and you'd be squished inside the car. the risk of hitting your head on a bar is greater if the car has a full 6 point cage as opposed to just a 4 point roll bar behind the seat.
chatting to one of the rescue guys at Loton Park the other week, he was showing us round their new rescue unit, and where they keep their gear...
one of the subjects of convo was about the increase uptake of the Hans device on in speed event drivers. they have come across accidents with single seat drivers while they are strapped in tightly in the car - they have moved enough in the straps, and their neck stretched enough that they've headbutted the steering wheel/front of the cockpit cowling!
its one of those things - yes you could do yourself an injury hitting the bar... but equally the car has no roll over protection should you roll it, and you'd be squished inside the car. the risk of hitting your head on a bar is greater if the car has a full 6 point cage as opposed to just a 4 point roll bar behind the seat.
Roll bar issue is tricky.
After seeing an RX-8 roll at Knockhill on a trackday I decided I had to get some sort of rollover protection for competition. However, I still drive to and from events and I am acutely aware of the risk of head injury that even a minor shunt could cause - my seat is really far back and reclined (to get me under the bar for competition). My roll bar is padded to the hilt but that doesn't give me a lot of comfort TBH. I personally wouldn't use a harness on the road because it seriously restricts your movement.
To be clear, the biggest risk with a roll bar is when you are on the road without your helmet on.
As for using a daily driver - yes - there are plenty of folk who do it and there are some events with classes for totally standard production cars. I'd say just go for it - I procrastinated for 5 years before finally taking the plunge in 2006. It's not for everyone - you need to have a competitive streak and you need to be able to roll with the punches - I've seen lots of folk turn up for one event and get really hacked off with the waiting, relatively short track time and the fact that they don't win. They usually don't come back!
On the plus side - the camaraderie between drivers is second to none and sometimes, you get lucky and go home with a trophy - nothing beats that!
After seeing an RX-8 roll at Knockhill on a trackday I decided I had to get some sort of rollover protection for competition. However, I still drive to and from events and I am acutely aware of the risk of head injury that even a minor shunt could cause - my seat is really far back and reclined (to get me under the bar for competition). My roll bar is padded to the hilt but that doesn't give me a lot of comfort TBH. I personally wouldn't use a harness on the road because it seriously restricts your movement.
To be clear, the biggest risk with a roll bar is when you are on the road without your helmet on.
As for using a daily driver - yes - there are plenty of folk who do it and there are some events with classes for totally standard production cars. I'd say just go for it - I procrastinated for 5 years before finally taking the plunge in 2006. It's not for everyone - you need to have a competitive streak and you need to be able to roll with the punches - I've seen lots of folk turn up for one event and get really hacked off with the waiting, relatively short track time and the fact that they don't win. They usually don't come back!
On the plus side - the camaraderie between drivers is second to none and sometimes, you get lucky and go home with a trophy - nothing beats that!
Edited by kevham on Friday 22 May 19:15
Funnily enought I took my current car to a garage this morning that had a Westfield with a roll bar in its showroom and I tried it for size. I'm convinced there's no way my head could have made contact with that bar with me still in the seat. Granted, the geometry on the Eunos may be different, but I refuse to believe you run the risk of nutting the roll bar on all cars fitted with one.
On balance it probably makes sense anyway - the idea is to go for a trackday/clubmans car that can venture onto the road on sunny Sundays or on its way to an eveny, but will hopefully spend more time on track. On balance the risk is probably greater on track than it is on the road.
On balance it probably makes sense anyway - the idea is to go for a trackday/clubmans car that can venture onto the road on sunny Sundays or on its way to an eveny, but will hopefully spend more time on track. On balance the risk is probably greater on track than it is on the road.
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