Discussion
Thankyou O font of all knowledge! I'm getting new tyres on the front and it's booked in at wheels-in-motion on monday,I can't wait!!!! I'm also going to order a Rods enthusist manual so I won't need to keep picking everyones brains all the time although I'm sure I will think of something!!!! 
probably won't help but grease is better in these sorts of applications than WD40 
my bonnet needed a big push after a small shunt to get it to shut properly - i undid the bolts on the catch but couldn't move it so i hope you do better than me. (i then levered the bonnet back into position using an old cricket bat and it's better)
my bonnet needed a big push after a small shunt to get it to shut properly - i undid the bolts on the catch but couldn't move it so i hope you do better than me. (i then levered the bonnet back into position using an old cricket bat and it's better)
MX-5 Lazza said:
If you are having a pair of new tyres fitted get them put on the rear. The best tyres should always be on the rear wheels.
I'd disagree with that personally, on most cars I make a point of having the best tyres on the front. If you have enough power for traction to be a significant problem then I can see why you'd have them on the rears, but in that case it would probably be worth replacing all of them.One way to look at it is when you're running out of grip, what would you prefer to lose first - traction, or steering and most of your braking?
Look at it another way - when you go into a bend in the wet would you rather suffer understeer that safely scrubs off the speed and lets you keep control or oversteer that send you spinning off the road? There is a very good reason why the majority of cars these days are made to understeer - it's much safer for 99.9% of drivers.
Look around for advice on the internet - you will find that pretty much everyone advises that the best tyres are fitted to the rear. It has nothing to do with traction or braking, it's all about cornering balance.
Look around for advice on the internet - you will find that pretty much everyone advises that the best tyres are fitted to the rear. It has nothing to do with traction or braking, it's all about cornering balance.
Try these for a start:
http://www.kwik-fit.com/tyre-rotation.asp
http://www.besttyre.com/tyres.htm
(tyre checklist item 5)
http://www.tyreplus.co.uk/tyre-tips.asp
(look in the "Is it a good idea to rotate your tyres?" section)
http://www.kwik-fit.com/tyre-rotation.asp
http://www.besttyre.com/tyres.htm
(tyre checklist item 5)
http://www.tyreplus.co.uk/tyre-tips.asp
(look in the "Is it a good idea to rotate your tyres?" section)
MX-5 Lazza said:
Look at it another way - when you go into a bend in the wet would you rather suffer understeer that safely scrubs off the speed and lets you keep control or oversteer that send you spinning off the road? There is a very good reason why the majority of cars these days are made to understeer - it's much safer for 99.9% of drivers.
Look around for advice on the internet - you will find that pretty much everyone advises that the best tyres are fitted to the rear. It has nothing to do with traction or braking, it's all about cornering balance.
I'd rather suffer oversteer that lets me adjust the attitude of the car than understeer that sees me ploughing straight ahead. Personal preference I guess, as most cars are made to understeer I try and ogive them a more neutral balance by putting the best tyres on the front. Most cars will still understeer first if you really get it wrong even with better tyres on the front.Look around for advice on the internet - you will find that pretty much everyone advises that the best tyres are fitted to the rear. It has nothing to do with traction or braking, it's all about cornering balance.
There's a lot of b0ll0x on the internet to support any argument you like, on whichever side you like, I'm just basing this on my personal experience. Those links tend to dumb things down for the lowest common denominator - what is 'easiest to control' for a below-average (incompetent) driver is by no means the same as what a keen driver prefers.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 26th June 12:33
GravelBen said:
I'd rather suffer oversteer that lets me adjust the attitude of the car than understeer that sees me ploughing straight ahead. Personal preference I guess, as most cars are made to understeer I try and give them a more neutral balance by putting the best tyres on the front. Most cars will still understeer first if you really get it wrong even with better tyres on the front.
There's a lot of b0ll0x on the internet to support any argument you like, on whichever side you like, I'm just basing this on my personal experience. Those links tend to dumb things down for the lowest common denominator - what is 'easiest to control' for a below-average (incompetent) driver is by no means the same as what a keen driver prefers.
ummm, you can adjust the attitude of the car in understeer by backing off! which is safer than getting a slide on when the rear goes. even a keen driver should know that - to suggest you can only rescue an oversteering car whereas an understeering car will plough straight on is false, regardless of personal preference of how you like to drive.There's a lot of b0ll0x on the internet to support any argument you like, on whichever side you like, I'm just basing this on my personal experience. Those links tend to dumb things down for the lowest common denominator - what is 'easiest to control' for a below-average (incompetent) driver is by no means the same as what a keen driver prefers.
Edited by skinny on Thursday 26th June 08:40
The advice doesn't come from Fred Bloggs who is a crap driver swanning around in his boring people carrier, it comes from the automotive and insurance industries who have done studies about this sort of thing.
If you go into a corner too fast so that you get understeer, as long as you still have rear grip you can lift-off (which is most peoples natural reaction) which will regain front-end grip and tighten the line. If however you go in too fast and the rear end breaks away you have to keep on the power and try to hold the slide, lifting off can see the back end overtaking the front - neither situation is great on crowded roads.
Another thing to consider is that rear tyre failures are pretty easy for anyone to deal with whereas front tyre failure usually results in a loss of control. Again, that comes from the automotive and insurance industries. You could argue that modern tyres hardly ever fail but it's all about reducing risk.
If you go into a corner too fast so that you get understeer, as long as you still have rear grip you can lift-off (which is most peoples natural reaction) which will regain front-end grip and tighten the line. If however you go in too fast and the rear end breaks away you have to keep on the power and try to hold the slide, lifting off can see the back end overtaking the front - neither situation is great on crowded roads.
Another thing to consider is that rear tyre failures are pretty easy for anyone to deal with whereas front tyre failure usually results in a loss of control. Again, that comes from the automotive and insurance industries. You could argue that modern tyres hardly ever fail but it's all about reducing risk.
skinny said:
GravelBen said:
I'd rather suffer oversteer that lets me adjust the attitude of the car than understeer that sees me ploughing straight ahead. Personal preference I guess, as most cars are made to understeer I try and give them a more neutral balance by putting the best tyres on the front. Most cars will still understeer first if you really get it wrong even with better tyres on the front.
There's a lot of b0ll0x on the internet to support any argument you like, on whichever side you like, I'm just basing this on my personal experience. Those links tend to dumb things down for the lowest common denominator - what is 'easiest to control' for a below-average (incompetent) driver is by no means the same as what a keen driver prefers.
ummm, you can adjust the attitude of the car in understeer by backing off! which is safer than getting a slide on when the rear goes. even a keen driver should know that - to suggest you can only rescue an oversteering car whereas an understeering car will plough straight on is false, regardless of personal preference of how you like to drive.There's a lot of b0ll0x on the internet to support any argument you like, on whichever side you like, I'm just basing this on my personal experience. Those links tend to dumb things down for the lowest common denominator - what is 'easiest to control' for a below-average (incompetent) driver is by no means the same as what a keen driver prefers.
I don't deny that understeer can be 'easier' to control as all you have to do is back off, but in my experience oversteer gives you more options for dealing with the situation.
You also seem to have missed my comment that most road cars will still tend to understeer even with the best tyres on the front, but evening out the balance raises the limit at which this will occur (all else being equal of course).
MX-5 Lazza said:
The advice doesn't come from Fred Bloggs who is a crap driver swanning around in his boring people carrier, it comes from the automotive and insurance industries who have done studies about this sort of thing.
The advice doesn't come from Fred Bloggs, but it is tailored for Fred Bloggs, by companies which are covering their a$$ by giving the advice least likely to get Fred the numpty in trouble. I'm not suggesting that everyone should go out and put bald tyres on the back (though that can be quite amusing in the wet), just saying putting the better pair on the front also has is advantages.MX-5 Lazza said:
If you go into a corner too fast so that you get understeer, as long as you still have rear grip you can lift-off (which is most peoples natural reaction) which will regain front-end grip and tighten the line. If however you go in too fast and the rear end breaks away you have to keep on the power and try to hold the slide, lifting off can see the back end overtaking the front - neither situation is great on crowded roads.
I don't think I've ever driven a car which oversteered on corner entry simply because of excess speed - generally they all tend to understeer unless provoked by certain driver inputs. And if someone is driving hard (or badly) enough to provoke serious under- or oversteer on crowded roads then chances are the problem lies with them more than their tyres.MX-5 Lazza said:
Another thing to consider is that rear tyre failures are pretty easy for anyone to deal with whereas front tyre failure usually results in a loss of control. Again, that comes from the automotive and insurance industries. You could argue that modern tyres hardly ever fail but it's all about reducing risk.
I think you got that part the wrong way round, front-wheel punctures are easiest to control for most people. But anyway, personally if I was all about reducing risk I wouldn't be driving a relatively lightweight 19-year oldsportscar with no roof, airbags, ABS etc. On a similar note I find ABS a problem rather than an aid for many of the roads I drive on (probably quite different situations to most of you), again personal preference which you may not agree with, but effective based on my experience.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 26th June 11:20
With a rear tyre failure all you have to do is brake - carefully. The weight shifts to the front and you can stop fairly safely.
With a front tyre failure braking is very tricky and will result in the car trying to steer itself away from the flat tyre.
At a recent Car Limits day we all experience the massive benefits of ABS in emergency braking at speed in a bend. With ABS you can just stamp on the brakes regardless of the speed and steering input and the car just stops without any drama. The cars with EBD were even better! Those without ABS span every time as they just can't cadence brake fast enough to avoid it. All F1 teams would have it if it was allowed.
With a front tyre failure braking is very tricky and will result in the car trying to steer itself away from the flat tyre.
At a recent Car Limits day we all experience the massive benefits of ABS in emergency braking at speed in a bend. With ABS you can just stamp on the brakes regardless of the speed and steering input and the car just stops without any drama. The cars with EBD were even better! Those without ABS span every time as they just can't cadence brake fast enough to avoid it. All F1 teams would have it if it was allowed.
Firstly - it's all going to depend on the situation and what your reaction is to that given situation.
ABS is not a problem, when they introduced it on the Corvette (awaiting some sort of American cars/corner abuse now!) - it was the Showroom stock racers who found the most benefit with it. One comment was that the braking distance was pretty much the same even if cornering, the car just did the stopping thing without any special input. Debate the physics if you like, but until you have four brake pedals in front of you and can judge the friction available on all 4 simultaneousely, I think we'll have to take our hat off to the electronics.
Good tyres on the front, as an alternative possibility, in the wet good front tyres will vlear more of the water out of the way for the rears. All this says to me is that you can put the good ones on either end, depends on the car and I'm unsure if a clear 'always put them on the...' can be arrived at.
Anyway, sorry, original poster,
Piece of advice I was told many years ago on shutting bonnets - best thing is actually to 'drop' them from a height, I typically guess I do about 12", this saves pushing on the thin metalwork and getting the characteristic dent you sometimes see in peoples bonnets, er, about where the catch is! Has worked very well for me over the years, on everything from the latest heavy soundproofed diesel engined cars, clamshells, the MX5, the funny engine lid you get on MR2's etc. My 2p worth!
I agree, I think the MX5 bonnet catches are quite hard in terms of pushing back against the catch.
ABS is not a problem, when they introduced it on the Corvette (awaiting some sort of American cars/corner abuse now!) - it was the Showroom stock racers who found the most benefit with it. One comment was that the braking distance was pretty much the same even if cornering, the car just did the stopping thing without any special input. Debate the physics if you like, but until you have four brake pedals in front of you and can judge the friction available on all 4 simultaneousely, I think we'll have to take our hat off to the electronics.
Good tyres on the front, as an alternative possibility, in the wet good front tyres will vlear more of the water out of the way for the rears. All this says to me is that you can put the good ones on either end, depends on the car and I'm unsure if a clear 'always put them on the...' can be arrived at.
Anyway, sorry, original poster,
Piece of advice I was told many years ago on shutting bonnets - best thing is actually to 'drop' them from a height, I typically guess I do about 12", this saves pushing on the thin metalwork and getting the characteristic dent you sometimes see in peoples bonnets, er, about where the catch is! Has worked very well for me over the years, on everything from the latest heavy soundproofed diesel engined cars, clamshells, the MX5, the funny engine lid you get on MR2's etc. My 2p worth!
I agree, I think the MX5 bonnet catches are quite hard in terms of pushing back against the catch.
ETA- In response to Lazza. Those links you quoted say that a front puncture is easier to deal with than rear, and I thought you were using that as a reason to put better tyres on the rear? As it is you seem to be suggesting putting better tyres on the front as you can deal with a rear puncture more easily?
Ever tried ABS on gravel or snow? Effective is not a word I'd use to describe it in those situations. Agreed that it helps a lot on smoother, harder surfaces though, and I'm pretty sure it can be programmed to work on looser surfaces (longer pulses etc) but in road cars it isn't.
Ever tried ABS on gravel or snow? Effective is not a word I'd use to describe it in those situations. Agreed that it helps a lot on smoother, harder surfaces though, and I'm pretty sure it can be programmed to work on looser surfaces (longer pulses etc) but in road cars it isn't.Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 26th June 12:33
DOH - That'll teach me not to post without reading/thinking! I think I had a lack of coffee yesterday 
I guess the front-tyre failure safer than rear tyre failure thing comes down to the same reasoning that says understeer is safer than oversteer...
ABS on snow/gravel isn't great - braking is improved if you can lock the wheels which causes a wedge of snow-gravel to build up in front of the tyre and ABS doesn't allow that to happen. Technology however doesn't stand still and modern ABS systems are much better in these conditions. This doesn't help us in our MX-5s though (possibly Mk3 is ok).
I guess the front-tyre failure safer than rear tyre failure thing comes down to the same reasoning that says understeer is safer than oversteer...
ABS on snow/gravel isn't great - braking is improved if you can lock the wheels which causes a wedge of snow-gravel to build up in front of the tyre and ABS doesn't allow that to happen. Technology however doesn't stand still and modern ABS systems are much better in these conditions. This doesn't help us in our MX-5s though (possibly Mk3 is ok).
Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Friday 27th June 11:06
Um, I think my car drives around on on gravel at walking pace on peoples drives and I don't seem to spend more than 1 day a year on snow, so I think for most drivers on the road ABS saves more incidents that it creates. On tracks, well, all the tracks I have seen have been concrete or tarmac surfaces.
For gravel, well gravel rallying normally means not an MX5 as far as I can tell, I've certainly not seen one, or one being competitive, so it'd be the wrong tool for the job.
Agree, snow and gravel have been challenges to traction control and ABS systems, but not enough to make a case to say ABS is worse than conventional.
I will concede one thing with any of these systems though, and that is that human beings tend to drive at a 'level of risk' they are comfortable with, alas fitting air bags, thicker safety cells and stability control just makes everyone drive faster and enjoy the same 'risk' as always, so in some respects safety systems make us all drive faster! (or with less attention, or both!)
For gravel, well gravel rallying normally means not an MX5 as far as I can tell, I've certainly not seen one, or one being competitive, so it'd be the wrong tool for the job.
Agree, snow and gravel have been challenges to traction control and ABS systems, but not enough to make a case to say ABS is worse than conventional.
I will concede one thing with any of these systems though, and that is that human beings tend to drive at a 'level of risk' they are comfortable with, alas fitting air bags, thicker safety cells and stability control just makes everyone drive faster and enjoy the same 'risk' as always, so in some respects safety systems make us all drive faster! (or with less attention, or both!)
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