Track set up - how far can you go?
Discussion
Hi,
Just wondering how close you can get in terms of performance & handling to something like say an elise/exige by track preparing an mx5...
For example, lets take a s/c or turbo converted mx-5 with upgraded susp/brakes etc. I suppose around 200bhp.
I know that the mx5 is heavier than elises/exiges, but i would have thought that with the right set up it would be an easier car to drive on the limit? - being front engined/rwd rather than mid engined.
I have driven a s/c Exige S & also a Honda Elise S2 on the road.
What I'm wodering is for a weekend car/occasional track (5-6 times a year) if it's worth shelling out for an Elise with a few track mods, or to save some money by getting something like a s/c or turbo mx5 for around £5-6k & then upgrading what ever still needs doing re track use e.g. AP brakes...
Just wondering how close you can get in terms of performance & handling to something like say an elise/exige by track preparing an mx5...
For example, lets take a s/c or turbo converted mx-5 with upgraded susp/brakes etc. I suppose around 200bhp.
I know that the mx5 is heavier than elises/exiges, but i would have thought that with the right set up it would be an easier car to drive on the limit? - being front engined/rwd rather than mid engined.
I have driven a s/c Exige S & also a Honda Elise S2 on the road.
What I'm wodering is for a weekend car/occasional track (5-6 times a year) if it's worth shelling out for an Elise with a few track mods, or to save some money by getting something like a s/c or turbo mx5 for around £5-6k & then upgrading what ever still needs doing re track use e.g. AP brakes...
I'm no track setup expert. But with the fully adjustable caster/camber/toe in on the car as standard you should be able to go for some fairly agressive track setups.
check out the MAX5 race cars. Very few mods, and even the brakes are standard parts off the 1.8 with uprated pads and fluid.
check out the MAX5 race cars. Very few mods, and even the brakes are standard parts off the 1.8 with uprated pads and fluid.
Wow, that's an enormous kettle of fish you have there!!!
The answer is kind of yes and kind of no.
You can give an MX-5 the straight-line pace easy enough with a super/turbo charger.
You can strip the car out so that (assuming you are starting with a '94 or earlier car) it gets down to about 800-850Kg.
You can set the alignment aggressively with light alloys and track tyres to give extra track grip/traction.
Most of all you can get training so that you can make the most of your car.
The car still won't be as good on track as a well sorted Elise but it will be a hell of a lot cheaper and will be easier to handle on the limit. It's also a very good tool to learn track driving.
With my car (226bhp, 195lb/ft), it's currently about the same around Bedford as a 111R and before the latest mods when it had 215bhp & 175lb/ft it was about the same as a stock S1 so that shows how much power you need to be able to match an Elise if you don't strip it to lose the weight (I'd guess that mine is over 1100Kg, possibly as much as 1200Kg). I have the power to keep up on the straights and the balance in the handling to match them on the tighter sections. Where lose out is on the faster bends where the Elises lack of mass seems to have a bigger advantage.
The answer is kind of yes and kind of no.
You can give an MX-5 the straight-line pace easy enough with a super/turbo charger.
You can strip the car out so that (assuming you are starting with a '94 or earlier car) it gets down to about 800-850Kg.
You can set the alignment aggressively with light alloys and track tyres to give extra track grip/traction.
Most of all you can get training so that you can make the most of your car.
The car still won't be as good on track as a well sorted Elise but it will be a hell of a lot cheaper and will be easier to handle on the limit. It's also a very good tool to learn track driving.
With my car (226bhp, 195lb/ft), it's currently about the same around Bedford as a 111R and before the latest mods when it had 215bhp & 175lb/ft it was about the same as a stock S1 so that shows how much power you need to be able to match an Elise if you don't strip it to lose the weight (I'd guess that mine is over 1100Kg, possibly as much as 1200Kg). I have the power to keep up on the straights and the balance in the handling to match them on the tighter sections. Where lose out is on the faster bends where the Elises lack of mass seems to have a bigger advantage.
Thanks for that - interesting. -I agree re driver training, I've had some 1 to 1 training at Brands & also at the international circuit in Dubai, & will do a 'Walshy day' whenever I get a weekend toy sorted out.
(I'm not a track novice)
So what sort of suspension is recommended as the 'best' for an MX5 - Tein? together with I would guess front & rear strut braces + I know you can get some under body bracing for the earlier cars + mad dog roll bar + Pagid brake pads/braided lines + decent geo.
Can you get adjustable ARB's for the mx5? - are they worth it?
And are the lightweight wheels that much lighter?
(I'm not a track novice)
So what sort of suspension is recommended as the 'best' for an MX5 - Tein? together with I would guess front & rear strut braces + I know you can get some under body bracing for the earlier cars + mad dog roll bar + Pagid brake pads/braided lines + decent geo.
Can you get adjustable ARB's for the mx5? - are they worth it?
And are the lightweight wheels that much lighter?
Also, just to add a bit more info - I fancy a weekend car that I can do the odd trackday with, so it needs to have basics like carpet, but I would happily have wind up windows & no a/c etc to save on the weight.
Also, I like the whole 'david vs galiath' thing re track days, hence looking at Elises. I could hold on & continue to save for one, although I'm not far off having the spare cash to buy a FI mx5, & I figured that this would be a cheaper approach that I could have NOW, not in 6 or 12 months.
So if I were to buy a pre-converted s/c or turbo mx5 (would prefer s/c), then this would work out more cost effective & I could then just fit any extra's like strut braces & under body bracing + maybe susp/brakes if they're not already up to the job.
Also, I like the whole 'david vs galiath' thing re track days, hence looking at Elises. I could hold on & continue to save for one, although I'm not far off having the spare cash to buy a FI mx5, & I figured that this would be a cheaper approach that I could have NOW, not in 6 or 12 months.
So if I were to buy a pre-converted s/c or turbo mx5 (would prefer s/c), then this would work out more cost effective & I could then just fit any extra's like strut braces & under body bracing + maybe susp/brakes if they're not already up to the job.
If you've been on track before then you'll have first hand experience of the fact that the biggest improvement you can make to any car is training for the driver. I've been driving on track for the last 3 years or so but always drive well within my limits because I don't trust myself to push it that bit further. I'm doing a walshy day this Sunday but it's shared with a large group so I don't know how much benefit I'll get from it...
Suspension - well until a couple of weeks ago I've been using KYB AGX shocks, FM Springs and FM ARBs. There are better shocks & springs out there, Teim being one of the best but it's all about what you can afford. My full setup with shocks, springs, ARBs, fitting and alignment cost be less that Tein shocks alone! I've now replaced them with P5 PureDrive shocks & springs which are height adjustable and have been designed for British roads/tracks.
Front strut brace can help but isn't critical. Rear strut braces is nice but not sure it actually does anything, especially if you fit roll-bars.
The chassis/under-body bracing is well worth doing but don't go over the top with it - most of it helps on the road to allow the suspension to absorb bumps which isn't a problem on track.
Mintex 1144 are the best brake pads though Axxis Ultimates are 95% as good at 60% of the price and are as good as you'll ever need. Use them with plain stock or even budget discs. Grooved discs aren't needed. If you get a 1.6 fit 1.8 brake discs (or even better, Mk2.5 Sport discs).
You can get adjustable ARBs (my FMs are adjustable) but if you get the right shocks/springs you shouldn't need them. I'll be testing my car with the P5 shocks/springs and FM ARBs but suspect I will be swapping them for stock ARBs some time in the future.
As for wheels, it depends what you are comparing. Early 1.6 wheels can be very light as can some of the later 15" wheels but a lot of them, especially those found on special editions can be much heavier than you'd expect.
Performance 5 should be your first port of call...
Suspension - well until a couple of weeks ago I've been using KYB AGX shocks, FM Springs and FM ARBs. There are better shocks & springs out there, Teim being one of the best but it's all about what you can afford. My full setup with shocks, springs, ARBs, fitting and alignment cost be less that Tein shocks alone! I've now replaced them with P5 PureDrive shocks & springs which are height adjustable and have been designed for British roads/tracks.
Front strut brace can help but isn't critical. Rear strut braces is nice but not sure it actually does anything, especially if you fit roll-bars.
The chassis/under-body bracing is well worth doing but don't go over the top with it - most of it helps on the road to allow the suspension to absorb bumps which isn't a problem on track.
Mintex 1144 are the best brake pads though Axxis Ultimates are 95% as good at 60% of the price and are as good as you'll ever need. Use them with plain stock or even budget discs. Grooved discs aren't needed. If you get a 1.6 fit 1.8 brake discs (or even better, Mk2.5 Sport discs).
You can get adjustable ARBs (my FMs are adjustable) but if you get the right shocks/springs you shouldn't need them. I'll be testing my car with the P5 shocks/springs and FM ARBs but suspect I will be swapping them for stock ARBs some time in the future.
As for wheels, it depends what you are comparing. Early 1.6 wheels can be very light as can some of the later 15" wheels but a lot of them, especially those found on special editions can be much heavier than you'd expect.
Performance 5 should be your first port of call...
With regards to SC MX-5's there are basically 2 types using 2 chargers.
Hotside or coldside. If it's hotside it's mounted above the exhaust manifold with a tube across the front of the engine to the intake manifold. This can be replaced with an intercooler for bigger boost. Coldside sees the sc on a custom manifold on the intake side. This gives excellent throttle response and is a real joy to drive but is limited in the amount of boost that can be run as intercooling isn't an option though water injection is possible but tricky.
M45 or MP62. Both hotside and coldside are available with either charger. A base kit using M45 will give you about 160bhp whereas an MP62 will give about 180bhp. The M45 can be easily modded to give 180bhp and with a lot of work and cash 200bhp. The MP62 is easier to mod and will give much bigger power, more than the block can handle. There is one in UK with 256bhp and I know P5 are working on one that should have about 280bhp!!!
Of course an MP62 kit will be more expensive than an M45...
The belts are much better on the hotside than coldside and the MP62 uses 6-rib belts whereas M45 uses 4-rib which is less reliable.
Hope that helps!
Hotside or coldside. If it's hotside it's mounted above the exhaust manifold with a tube across the front of the engine to the intake manifold. This can be replaced with an intercooler for bigger boost. Coldside sees the sc on a custom manifold on the intake side. This gives excellent throttle response and is a real joy to drive but is limited in the amount of boost that can be run as intercooling isn't an option though water injection is possible but tricky.
M45 or MP62. Both hotside and coldside are available with either charger. A base kit using M45 will give you about 160bhp whereas an MP62 will give about 180bhp. The M45 can be easily modded to give 180bhp and with a lot of work and cash 200bhp. The MP62 is easier to mod and will give much bigger power, more than the block can handle. There is one in UK with 256bhp and I know P5 are working on one that should have about 280bhp!!!
Of course an MP62 kit will be more expensive than an M45...
The belts are much better on the hotside than coldside and the MP62 uses 6-rib belts whereas M45 uses 4-rib which is less reliable.
Hope that helps!
I've wondered about the MX-5/Elise thing myself recently and I'm not convinced there's that much point in modding an MX-5 when you consider that S1 Elises are getting cheaper all the time. People seem to spend a lot of time,effort and money fitting FI to their MX-5s only to end up with the same performance that can be had from one of the milder factory Elise variants (which are naturally aspirated, meaning you don't need the extra weight and complexity of FI). Part of the problem is that to make an MX-5 suitable for track use, you need to add weight - FI, rollbars, bracing etc.
In order to give youself the best headstart from a weight perspective, you'd need to use a Mk1 MX-5. The newest of these are approximately the same age as the oldest Elises and will almost certainly have done more miles (so you'd have to factor in the cost of things like new suspension - which the lower mileage, younger Elise may not need).
The Elise has better crash protection too - i.e. integrated rollbars and so forth. In an MX-5 you have to add your own (which bumps the weight up again).
If an off-the-shelf Elise isn't quick enough, all(!) you have to do is fit a JDM K20 to an S1 Elise. It's lighter than the standard engine (IIRC) and I'd guess the cost of the car and engine is comparable to the money you'd spend building a mega-spec, fully sorted supercharged MX-5 (assuming you do the conversion work yourself
).
There are other other considerations though - I've had Elises and MX-5s and I think the 5 is a far better designed car in many respects. As you say, the 5 is the more forgiving in handling terms too.
Resale value has to be a consideration too - you'd never see a return on your money if you mod an MX-5. If you just used an unmodded Elise for your track work then you'll probably get your money back when you sell. Even if you stuck a K20 in an Elise, you'd probably get your money back if you did the conversion yourself.
It's all down to personal choice ultimately I guess.
In order to give youself the best headstart from a weight perspective, you'd need to use a Mk1 MX-5. The newest of these are approximately the same age as the oldest Elises and will almost certainly have done more miles (so you'd have to factor in the cost of things like new suspension - which the lower mileage, younger Elise may not need).
The Elise has better crash protection too - i.e. integrated rollbars and so forth. In an MX-5 you have to add your own (which bumps the weight up again).
If an off-the-shelf Elise isn't quick enough, all(!) you have to do is fit a JDM K20 to an S1 Elise. It's lighter than the standard engine (IIRC) and I'd guess the cost of the car and engine is comparable to the money you'd spend building a mega-spec, fully sorted supercharged MX-5 (assuming you do the conversion work yourself
). There are other other considerations though - I've had Elises and MX-5s and I think the 5 is a far better designed car in many respects. As you say, the 5 is the more forgiving in handling terms too.
Resale value has to be a consideration too - you'd never see a return on your money if you mod an MX-5. If you just used an unmodded Elise for your track work then you'll probably get your money back when you sell. Even if you stuck a K20 in an Elise, you'd probably get your money back if you did the conversion yourself.
It's all down to personal choice ultimately I guess.
Edited by Risotto on Friday 27th June 17:00
redgriff500 said:
I think you lot forget that the best way is to buy one already modified.
I've seen a 240bhp FM2 turbo MX5 for £4000 and a full cosworth converted one also went for £4k.
Then its a no brainer.
Especially if you add in the respective costs should you crash it.
Good point, maybe I should have read the OP post again! I've seen a 240bhp FM2 turbo MX5 for £4000 and a full cosworth converted one also went for £4k.
Then its a no brainer.
Especially if you add in the respective costs should you crash it.
Yes, if you're talking about buying a 5 that someone else has already blown a fortune on, it's going to be cheaper than an Elise.
Thanks for the comments guys - yes that's right I'm suggesting buying a modified FI mx5 that someone else has thrown money at, & then just finishing it off myself as necessary for occasional track use, so approx £4k - 5k for the car to start with.
-Compared to a std earlier Elise 111S (preferably already upgraded with the S2 suspension), which would cost more to start with (approx £9k) although would probably just need a decent geo set up/decent tyres + harnesess.
I have driven an s2 Honda Elise which was very nice indeed, although obviously the Honda cars, whilst massively quicker, are £16k plus for the S1's & £20k plus for the S2's & whilst I did have that kind of budget towards the end of last year, I had to 'redirect some funds' into a property development & so am now saving back up re my fun car budget...
hence having mx5 level budget now, & not likely to have Elise level budget for another 6 months - hence the thought process surrounding this thread.
Thing is, if I start looking around at Elises, I just know I'll keep being tempted by the pre-converted Honda ones!
-Compared to a std earlier Elise 111S (preferably already upgraded with the S2 suspension), which would cost more to start with (approx £9k) although would probably just need a decent geo set up/decent tyres + harnesess.
I have driven an s2 Honda Elise which was very nice indeed, although obviously the Honda cars, whilst massively quicker, are £16k plus for the S1's & £20k plus for the S2's & whilst I did have that kind of budget towards the end of last year, I had to 'redirect some funds' into a property development & so am now saving back up re my fun car budget...
hence having mx5 level budget now, & not likely to have Elise level budget for another 6 months - hence the thought process surrounding this thread.
Thing is, if I start looking around at Elises, I just know I'll keep being tempted by the pre-converted Honda ones!
Also just like to add that it's refeshing to come into a car specific forum section where I'm getting some insiteful unbiased comments & not the 'this cars obviously better than anything else as I've got one' type of response you quite often get with some car specific forums/sections. 
i have a friend who had a mk2 and wanted to change to an early elise just for something quicker - but couldn't find one in decent condition and just heard so many stories about reliability that he was put off. if they are driven well, they are quicker than a 5, but if driven not so well they are much more difficult to control and handle. another friend, a vehicle ride and handling engineer, reckons the best thing you can do with an elise to improve the handling is shift weight out to the front and rear bumper and try to increase yaw inertia a little bit!!
i've seen guys driving elises crawling round tracks and still getting into trouble. so i'd say that if you're a regular trackdayer / racer, you will be able to exploit the advantages of an elise and go quicker than even a breathed on 5 - you just can't argue with that sort of weight difference. not sure who'd be having more fun tho
i've seen guys driving elises crawling round tracks and still getting into trouble. so i'd say that if you're a regular trackdayer / racer, you will be able to exploit the advantages of an elise and go quicker than even a breathed on 5 - you just can't argue with that sort of weight difference. not sure who'd be having more fun tho
And there is always the Q factor.
Sure an S1 Elise will be quicker than most FI MX-5's and a 111R will be quicker than a seriously FI MX-5 but it's not all about speed is it?
An Elise is seen as a track car that is good to use on the road so when you see one on the track you assume that it's going to be good whereas the MX-5 is seen as a hairdressers car so when one is seen hooning around a track giving any Elise a run for it's money everyone is interested and wants to know what you've done to it. Well that's my experience from running my '5 on Lotus-on-Track track days.
The best car I've seen on track was a seriously modded Mk1 Golf with a 2 litre engine. It was completely stripped out inside and even the roof-line was lowered a good 6 inches. It was beating everything around Goodwood including Exiges and even overtook a radical SR1! The driver was an 80 year old ex-professional racer so I'm sure part of his advantage was 50+ years of track experience.
Sure an S1 Elise will be quicker than most FI MX-5's and a 111R will be quicker than a seriously FI MX-5 but it's not all about speed is it?
An Elise is seen as a track car that is good to use on the road so when you see one on the track you assume that it's going to be good whereas the MX-5 is seen as a hairdressers car so when one is seen hooning around a track giving any Elise a run for it's money everyone is interested and wants to know what you've done to it. Well that's my experience from running my '5 on Lotus-on-Track track days.
The best car I've seen on track was a seriously modded Mk1 Golf with a 2 litre engine. It was completely stripped out inside and even the roof-line was lowered a good 6 inches. It was beating everything around Goodwood including Exiges and even overtook a radical SR1! The driver was an 80 year old ex-professional racer so I'm sure part of his advantage was 50+ years of track experience.
"i've seen guys driving elises crawling round tracks and still getting into trouble"
Yes - I've seen the video on youtube of the mx5 hassling an S2 Elise which then bins it!
Actually, re weight - what does a 'basic' S1 mx5 weigh? e.g. no elec windows or a/c.
+ what can you do to loose weight from one, there doesn't seem to be much to them, so I suppose take out the spare wheel & boot carpet... anything else?
Yes - I've seen the video on youtube of the mx5 hassling an S2 Elise which then bins it!
Actually, re weight - what does a 'basic' S1 mx5 weigh? e.g. no elec windows or a/c.
+ what can you do to loose weight from one, there doesn't seem to be much to them, so I suppose take out the spare wheel & boot carpet... anything else?
MX-5 Lazza said:
(I'd guess that mine is over 1100Kg, possibly as much as 1200Kg)
I think that maybe a being a bit mean to it, I'd be suprised if its 1100kg really shocked if its 1200kg. My '97 mk1 Eunos when it was normally aspirated and only weight saving mods were A/C having been removed & electric aerial removed, no spare wheel but a full toolkit, with a brimmed tank of fuel, oil & washerfluid only came in at 960kg on a DVLA weighbridge 500kg front axle, 460kg rear axle.
The mk2 is essentially the same car and yours has lightweight seats, its only got the weight of the supercharger & roll bar against it. The bars heavy admittedly but the charger probably only adds 15 or so kg?
Next time I find myself free on a school day I'll make a point of getting my car re-weighed on the same bridge. It'll have gained a Turbo kit, 2.5" exhaust & roll bar but lost electric windows, all the chrome trim and all sound deadening. I'm betting on 1000kg almost on the head, I admit i'm now at the point were theres nothing left to remove I can't live without, so is lightweight seats, carbon boot lid, alloy intercooler pipes next,.. sadly these are all costly things
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