Track Modifying an MX5?
Discussion
First up, accept my apologies if this post is running over things that have already been covered on the forum! I'm interested in modifying an MX5 for the track and everything that I can find is based around road use.
I've just returned from my second trip to the Nurburgring in my beloved Elise and I'm beginning to worry about running it at the ring and on trackdays due to its value (to me!) and the fact that it is an immaculate road car that I really cherish. My racing Caterham could be made road legal, but even if I made the mods it'd be a total pain to drive it to the ring and it's best kept just for racing. So, my mind's turned towards getting something in between - i.e. road legal with a CD player and a boot, but focused to track driving. I'd like to the car to be involving and well balanced, with excellent handling and enough power to make things interesting (i.e. over 200bhp per tonne, 60 in around 5 or less and a top end of over 130mph). My questions are as follows:
I've just returned from my second trip to the Nurburgring in my beloved Elise and I'm beginning to worry about running it at the ring and on trackdays due to its value (to me!) and the fact that it is an immaculate road car that I really cherish. My racing Caterham could be made road legal, but even if I made the mods it'd be a total pain to drive it to the ring and it's best kept just for racing. So, my mind's turned towards getting something in between - i.e. road legal with a CD player and a boot, but focused to track driving. I'd like to the car to be involving and well balanced, with excellent handling and enough power to make things interesting (i.e. over 200bhp per tonne, 60 in around 5 or less and a top end of over 130mph). My questions are as follows:
- My memory of driving road going MX5s was that they were lovely, but not with the level of involvement or rawness that I like in a car. Can this involvement be generated by modifying the car?
- Are parts like competition bushes, track biased suspension, anti rolls bars etc available?
- How much lower will the seating position go if I bolt in some racing bucket seats? I like to sit 'in' a car.
- Are there any companies out there that specialise in MX5 tuning for the track? I am most definitely not a wide boy and I'm just interested in track performance, rather than bodykits, neon lights etc
- Can MX5s get to over 200bhp without turbocharging them? (Sorry, but personally I'm not a fan of turbocharging). Maybe a light amount of supercharging coupled with some internal engine mods?
- Mk1 or Mk2?
- If I fit a roll cage, will the hood still go on? I'd like to retain some practicality to get to track days.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 24th August 16:51
Rob,
I run an MX5 in the Aldon HSA Speed Series. I have fitted an OMP RS bucket seat as low as possible (without runners) and the driving position is certainly a lot better in my opinion. The standard seat height is too high by at least 50mm. Track focused parts are readily available for the suspension. I'm planning on fitting a KW coilover kit to mine but there are a number of alternatives on the market. The only FIA approved roll cage is the one used in the Max5 race series which precludes use of the soft or hard top. There are a number of 4 and 6 point alternatives out there though. Hard Dog are the most popular it would seem.
If you want involvement and rawness you have to go Mk1 - it's lighter and there are generally more track type products on the market for Mk1 too.
Power wise anything is possible given enough money. I don't know what you can get to with the various S/C kits out there - I'm sure someone will be along to expand on this.
For the money the Mk1 is a cracking car. Back to basics motoring and I imagine it would be a hoot round the 'ring.
Dave
I run an MX5 in the Aldon HSA Speed Series. I have fitted an OMP RS bucket seat as low as possible (without runners) and the driving position is certainly a lot better in my opinion. The standard seat height is too high by at least 50mm. Track focused parts are readily available for the suspension. I'm planning on fitting a KW coilover kit to mine but there are a number of alternatives on the market. The only FIA approved roll cage is the one used in the Max5 race series which precludes use of the soft or hard top. There are a number of 4 and 6 point alternatives out there though. Hard Dog are the most popular it would seem.
If you want involvement and rawness you have to go Mk1 - it's lighter and there are generally more track type products on the market for Mk1 too.
Power wise anything is possible given enough money. I don't know what you can get to with the various S/C kits out there - I'm sure someone will be along to expand on this.
For the money the Mk1 is a cracking car. Back to basics motoring and I imagine it would be a hoot round the 'ring.
Dave
I'm not entirely sure what exactly you mean by involvement and rawness, but the feel of the car can be changed immensely. Not least, you have fully adjustable geometry all around. Then there are the suspension tuning options - many different brands of aftermarket springs and adjustable dampers, stiffer, adjustable arbs and poly bushing.
The seating can be dropped in various ways. Anything from removing some of the foam from the standard seats through to fitting of a race seat with side mounts, or as is becoming popular currently, Elise seats mounted directly to the floor. I can't quantify how low it will go, but I'm hoping to modify the standard runners on my RS Ltd seats to get it low enough that I can wear a helmet with the roof up (not comfortable on the standard seats). If not, I'll mount them directly to the floor that should give me an extra 30mm at least.
Most of the specialist MX5 tuning concentrates on performance rather than styling. My preferred specialist is Phil at Performance5. He can advise you in a lot more detail than I can. Forced induction is available in various flavours of turbo and supercharging. If you're preference is supercharging, the MP62 should be able to make around 200, no internal mods required. Built engines become a requirement when you're taking a turbo up above 230/240ish.
Plenty of cages can fit with the soft top up.
The Mk1 tends to be regarded as the purest drive and an early car will also be a bit lighter, the cage replacing the side impact and stiffness improvements added to the later cars.
There's a chap on Northloop (and Nutz) that runs a standard engined 1.6 on the Ring that he's modified the suspension to suit the Ring and embarrasses a lot of expensive machinery.
The seating can be dropped in various ways. Anything from removing some of the foam from the standard seats through to fitting of a race seat with side mounts, or as is becoming popular currently, Elise seats mounted directly to the floor. I can't quantify how low it will go, but I'm hoping to modify the standard runners on my RS Ltd seats to get it low enough that I can wear a helmet with the roof up (not comfortable on the standard seats). If not, I'll mount them directly to the floor that should give me an extra 30mm at least.
Most of the specialist MX5 tuning concentrates on performance rather than styling. My preferred specialist is Phil at Performance5. He can advise you in a lot more detail than I can. Forced induction is available in various flavours of turbo and supercharging. If you're preference is supercharging, the MP62 should be able to make around 200, no internal mods required. Built engines become a requirement when you're taking a turbo up above 230/240ish.
Plenty of cages can fit with the soft top up.
The Mk1 tends to be regarded as the purest drive and an early car will also be a bit lighter, the cage replacing the side impact and stiffness improvements added to the later cars.
There's a chap on Northloop (and Nutz) that runs a standard engined 1.6 on the Ring that he's modified the suspension to suit the Ring and embarrasses a lot of expensive machinery.
I have a Mk2.5 (2001+ Face-lifted Mk2) that I initially modified to be a fun fast road car but which has slowly become more of a track machine.
I have fitted KYB AGX shocks and FM Springs & ARBs. The shocks are 4 position adjustable but no height adjustment. They are fine for what i want but if you are serious about track driving you'll probably prefer something like Gaz coil-overs which are more adjustable.
I have replaced my seats with Lotus Elise S1 seats on the stock MX-5 runners which I reckon has lowered my seating position by around 2 inches but you have to take into account that leather heated Mk2.5 Sport seats are a fair bit higher than Mk1 seats. If I wanted it lower I could mount then direct to the floor (I have my piggy-back ecu under the passenger seat and a stereo power amp under the drivers seat to show how much more I could drop them) but I want to keep some practicality.
The Hard-Dog Deuce that I have had fitted is a proper roll-bar that offers rear roll protection as well as stiffening the chassis but isn't a full roll-cage and isn't really high enough for a serious track machine. The Hard Dog Hard-Core is about as high as you can get without loosing the hood.
My car has been fitted with an MP62 supercharger and TDR intercooler which has boosted power to around 240bhp and 200lb/ft so it's certainly no slouch
The limit is actually around 270bhp before you need a built engine but i wouldn't go beyond 250bhp just to keep a margin of safety. In the states they talk about the max being 270bhp at the rear wheels but their dynos seem to read much higher than ours and their rw output seems to roughly match our crank hp. Bear that in mind when looking at US power claims.
The Mk1 is a more involving drive than the Mk2 when comparing stock cars but once you start changing the suspension components that difference disappears. I know my car is way more involving than my old Mk1 ever was
Most of my work was done by Phil at Performance5 who is this countries No1 MX-5 performance expert and I'd definitely recommend him to you - he's helped me out when I have had problems at silly times of the evening/weekend with no more than a bit of sarcasm
As for mk1 or mk2 I's say, if it was going to be primarily a road car then go for a Mk2 as the stiffer chassis means you can have more compliance in the suspension without ruining the handling but if it will be a track car with occasional road use then a mk1 would be an easier and cheaper base to start from.
I have fitted KYB AGX shocks and FM Springs & ARBs. The shocks are 4 position adjustable but no height adjustment. They are fine for what i want but if you are serious about track driving you'll probably prefer something like Gaz coil-overs which are more adjustable.
I have replaced my seats with Lotus Elise S1 seats on the stock MX-5 runners which I reckon has lowered my seating position by around 2 inches but you have to take into account that leather heated Mk2.5 Sport seats are a fair bit higher than Mk1 seats. If I wanted it lower I could mount then direct to the floor (I have my piggy-back ecu under the passenger seat and a stereo power amp under the drivers seat to show how much more I could drop them) but I want to keep some practicality.
The Hard-Dog Deuce that I have had fitted is a proper roll-bar that offers rear roll protection as well as stiffening the chassis but isn't a full roll-cage and isn't really high enough for a serious track machine. The Hard Dog Hard-Core is about as high as you can get without loosing the hood.
My car has been fitted with an MP62 supercharger and TDR intercooler which has boosted power to around 240bhp and 200lb/ft so it's certainly no slouch
The limit is actually around 270bhp before you need a built engine but i wouldn't go beyond 250bhp just to keep a margin of safety. In the states they talk about the max being 270bhp at the rear wheels but their dynos seem to read much higher than ours and their rw output seems to roughly match our crank hp. Bear that in mind when looking at US power claims.The Mk1 is a more involving drive than the Mk2 when comparing stock cars but once you start changing the suspension components that difference disappears. I know my car is way more involving than my old Mk1 ever was
Most of my work was done by Phil at Performance5 who is this countries No1 MX-5 performance expert and I'd definitely recommend him to you - he's helped me out when I have had problems at silly times of the evening/weekend with no more than a bit of sarcasm
As for mk1 or mk2 I's say, if it was going to be primarily a road car then go for a Mk2 as the stiffer chassis means you can have more compliance in the suspension without ruining the handling but if it will be a track car with occasional road use then a mk1 would be an easier and cheaper base to start from.
i think paul sheard auto's would be a good place to ask about suspension upgrades - they have two MAX5 racers and when i took one out it was certainly a lot stiffer and more responsive than my 5 on upgraded but still definitely road-spec suspension. i believe he used units that allowed you to fit racing springs so you can choose lengths and spring rates etc, rather than just buying something like the eibach spring set or whatever. then there are all sorts of chassis braces you can get to further stiffen the shell and improve control and response, and although i've only seen them in japan, you can also get parts to replace or stiffen the suspension arms, and uprated and adjustable ARB's are easy enough to come by.
as for sitting lower, it's not easy. i run with a sparco corsa (fibreglass shell) bolted directly to the floor and it's not significantly lower than stock. as said above, the full cages that go forwards and run down the windscreen pillars are not compatible with roofs; you can buy a 6-pt roll cage and use the roof still, but they do sometimes limit seat space. either the 6-pt cage or full cage will of course again stiffen up the shell somewhat.
as for s/c's then yes you will be able to hit 200 bhp without the need for any uprated internals - just the normal things of decent clutch, (box should be ok) and if you buy a 1.6 model, then uprate the diff. also, big brake kits (bbk's) are available (wilwood i think is one) that use 4-pt calipers front (maybe 2's on the rear?).
as for sitting lower, it's not easy. i run with a sparco corsa (fibreglass shell) bolted directly to the floor and it's not significantly lower than stock. as said above, the full cages that go forwards and run down the windscreen pillars are not compatible with roofs; you can buy a 6-pt roll cage and use the roof still, but they do sometimes limit seat space. either the 6-pt cage or full cage will of course again stiffen up the shell somewhat.
as for s/c's then yes you will be able to hit 200 bhp without the need for any uprated internals - just the normal things of decent clutch, (box should be ok) and if you buy a 1.6 model, then uprate the diff. also, big brake kits (bbk's) are available (wilwood i think is one) that use 4-pt calipers front (maybe 2's on the rear?).
IMO best place to start is an imported 1.8 Mk1 (cheap, has LSD etc)
A JR SC will just get you to 200bhp or an Intercooled (or W Inj) MP62 will get you around 240ish.
Jap importers have cages available cheap and they are a massive array of aftermarket parts.
I'd guess a good car £3-4000.
SC £1 - 4000.
Others bits £1000+
Obviously depends if you buy new / Ebay etc.
Alternatively converted cars turn up occassionally.
A JR SC will just get you to 200bhp or an Intercooled (or W Inj) MP62 will get you around 240ish.
Jap importers have cages available cheap and they are a massive array of aftermarket parts.
I'd guess a good car £3-4000.
SC £1 - 4000.
Others bits £1000+
Obviously depends if you buy new / Ebay etc.
Alternatively converted cars turn up occassionally.
I've got a caged MX5 mk1 on Bilstein dampers, std brakes and std power (nearly)... it's more than capable on track.
Check it out on my MX5 pages at bridgetogantry.com
Also there's a video of it in action here
Mine is 100bhp at the wheels with a full system (headers and back) and a trick airbox. So n/a 200bhp would deffo need a new motor!
That's still good for 127mph through the foxhole though... picture here
I've got a carbing 6-point cage, cost me £200 off ebay and the hood fits over it no sweat. Before that I had another £200 JDM cage that fitted under the hood.
Bucket seats need to be small, as do harness straps. Ummm... can't think of much else... I like the mk1. It's my favourite!
Check it out on my MX5 pages at bridgetogantry.com
Also there's a video of it in action here
Mine is 100bhp at the wheels with a full system (headers and back) and a trick airbox. So n/a 200bhp would deffo need a new motor!
That's still good for 127mph through the foxhole though... picture hereI've got a carbing 6-point cage, cost me £200 off ebay and the hood fits over it no sweat. Before that I had another £200 JDM cage that fitted under the hood.
Bucket seats need to be small, as do harness straps. Ummm... can't think of much else... I like the mk1. It's my favourite!
Edited by SuperRetard on Wednesday 29th August 23:43
Both the Caged and Safety Devices cages that were designed for the Max5 series are excellent but will not allow you to have a roof.
The American Miata series runs with an equally excellent cage but will allow you a hardtop as they run in their series.
More info on the series and Miata's/MX5s in general can be found here - http://www.miata.net
The biggest gains in terms of handling will come from set up. The Max5 series run on either Avo's or Spax coilovers which can be bought for around £500 a set. In terms of handing there seems to be little difference but the Spax seem to wear that bit better.
One of the biggest reasons for choosing either of these 2 brands is that you can then take advantage of the set up info from the Max5 guys. I would personally recommend Christian Dick who won the Championship in 2005 and also owns Speedworks Motorsport who ran 6 cars in last years championship. http://www.speedworksmotorsport.com/contact. Alternatively if Christian is too busy Paul Sheard will also be happy to help.
In terms of the seating position, simply bolt it straight to the floor. I am 6ft 5" and even with my helmet on can get my head under the cage with no problems.
Overall it sounds like an excellent idea I might just have a go at something myself
The American Miata series runs with an equally excellent cage but will allow you a hardtop as they run in their series.
More info on the series and Miata's/MX5s in general can be found here - http://www.miata.net
The biggest gains in terms of handling will come from set up. The Max5 series run on either Avo's or Spax coilovers which can be bought for around £500 a set. In terms of handing there seems to be little difference but the Spax seem to wear that bit better.
One of the biggest reasons for choosing either of these 2 brands is that you can then take advantage of the set up info from the Max5 guys. I would personally recommend Christian Dick who won the Championship in 2005 and also owns Speedworks Motorsport who ran 6 cars in last years championship. http://www.speedworksmotorsport.com/contact. Alternatively if Christian is too busy Paul Sheard will also be happy to help.
In terms of the seating position, simply bolt it straight to the floor. I am 6ft 5" and even with my helmet on can get my head under the cage with no problems.
Overall it sounds like an excellent idea I might just have a go at something myself
Edited by SKR on Thursday 30th August 00:11
SuperRetard said:
I've got a caged MX5 mk1 on Bilstein dampers, std brakes and std power (nearly)... it's more than capable on track.
Check it out on my MX5 pages at bridgetogantry.com
Also there's a video of it in action here
Mine is 100bhp at the wheels with a full system (headers and back) and a trick airbox. So n/a 200bhp would deffo need a new motor! That's still good for 127mph through the foxhole though... picture here
I've got a carbing 6-point cage, cost me £200 off ebay and the hood fits over it no sweat. Before that I had another £200 JDM cage that fitted under the hood.
Bucket seats need to be small, as do harness straps. Ummm... can't think of much else... I like the mk1. It's my favourite!
127mph at the bottom of the foxhole is good going Check it out on my MX5 pages at bridgetogantry.com
Also there's a video of it in action here
Mine is 100bhp at the wheels with a full system (headers and back) and a trick airbox. So n/a 200bhp would deffo need a new motor!
That's still good for 127mph through the foxhole though... picture hereI've got a carbing 6-point cage, cost me £200 off ebay and the hood fits over it no sweat. Before that I had another £200 JDM cage that fitted under the hood.
Bucket seats need to be small, as do harness straps. Ummm... can't think of much else... I like the mk1. It's my favourite!
Edited by SuperRetard on Wednesday 29th August 23:43
I'm apexing Aremberg at about 60mph in the Elise and only just hit that by the bottom. Mind you, I do drive like a sissy at the ring.I think you were there when I last drove the ring actually - Sunday the 19th of August? I was stuck behind something mundane that didn't see me at Adenau Forst, and for some reason the second you turned up he moved over!
Greg_D said:
we run a track prepped mx5 using off the shelf components (details here) and it runs rings around turbo'd 5's at trackdays, it is all down to the setup as mentioned before.
Greg
really? theres no reason a turbo 5 can't have the rest of the setup the same as your n/a track car but oh 100bhp more, you loose nothing fitting a turbo its not like you loose poer off boost it stays the same as an n/a car so you don't have the arugment that say off boost exiting a corner you have power ready to use, a turbo car will be the same but then will disappear into the distance down the straight.Greg
On the Bedford GT circuit back in April when my car had 215bhp it was roughly the same speed around the track as a stock S1 Elise. A couple of weekends ago with around 240bhp it was roughly the same speed around the same track with the same cars/drivers as a new Elise 111R (the 189bhp Toyota engines version). That's on all parts of the track, down the straights and around the bends. On the high speed bends they had the edge as I only have 195 width road tyres on my 15" wheels whereas they have much wider tyres and less weight so have more outright grip. I could fix this with wider tyres (or using trackday specials) but fun on the track isn't all about cornering speeds.
Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Friday 7th September 12:29
Hmmm
All intresting reading.
Well ive just bought a Eunos 1.8 with Torsen Diff and just started preping it for the Ring, i am off there in it on the 13th - 16th Oct.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Should be a blast..... so far only stuck a Roll Bar on it. It has a Full Mazdaspeed 4-2-1 Manifold and exhasut on it and K&N. It certainly goes well.
Next on the list is some Springs, not sure if i am going to do shocks at the same time, still deciding if its worth it on a £3K car.
Keeping with the 14" wheels for the moment as tyres are cheap cheap cheap.
The reason i bought the 5 was it was a cheap car to run, mod and fix where necessary.
Any advice on Modifications to help my Ring Trip would be good!
Cheers
Mark
All intresting reading.
Well ive just bought a Eunos 1.8 with Torsen Diff and just started preping it for the Ring, i am off there in it on the 13th - 16th Oct.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Should be a blast..... so far only stuck a Roll Bar on it. It has a Full Mazdaspeed 4-2-1 Manifold and exhasut on it and K&N. It certainly goes well.
Next on the list is some Springs, not sure if i am going to do shocks at the same time, still deciding if its worth it on a £3K car.
Keeping with the 14" wheels for the moment as tyres are cheap cheap cheap.
The reason i bought the 5 was it was a cheap car to run, mod and fix where necessary.
Any advice on Modifications to help my Ring Trip would be good!
Cheers
Mark
you want to get in touch with Al on FastClassics..
his little red demon of an mx5 goes rather well round the ring!
here's his car:
http://www.fastclassics.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php...
It's done on the cheap, with everything optimised basically for 'Ring driving and nothing else.. and certainly reaps the rewards!
his little red demon of an mx5 goes rather well round the ring!
here's his car:
http://www.fastclassics.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php...
It's done on the cheap, with everything optimised basically for 'Ring driving and nothing else.. and certainly reaps the rewards!
Edited by Pierscoe1 on Sunday 9th September 21:34
cool!steve bowen said:
Greg_D said:
we run a track prepped mx5 using off the shelf components (details here) and it runs rings around turbo'd 5's at trackdays, it is all down to the setup as mentioned before.
Greg
really? theres no reason a turbo 5 can't have the rest of the setup the same as your n/a track car but oh 100bhp more, you loose nothing fitting a turbo its not like you loose poer off boost it stays the same as an n/a car so you don't have the arugment that say off boost exiting a corner you have power ready to use, a turbo car will be the same but then will disappear into the distance down the straight.Greg
ps. i have no axe to grind as i own a road optimised mx5 turbo with more than 200 rwhp as well as the track car. I am just being honest that is all.
Greg
MX-5 Lazza said:
On the Bedford GT circuit back in April when my car had 215bhp it was roughly the same speed around the track as a stock S1 Elise. A couple of weekends ago with around 240bhp it was roughly the same speed around the same track with the same cars/drivers as a new Elise 111R (the 189bhp Toyota engines version). That's on all parts of the track, down the straights and around the bends. On the high speed bends they had the edge as I only have 195 width road tyres on my 15" wheels whereas they have much wider tyres and less weight so have more outright grip. I could fix this with wider tyres (or using trackday specials) but fun on the track isn't all about cornering speeds.
Lazza, I always assumed your name was Laura! Edited by MX-5 Lazza on Friday 7th September 12:29
Yep been a few S2000 ones in the USA.
Not really worth it unless its for a specific race class etc as the MX5 is so suited to Forced induction and there are plenty of cheap kits around.
240 FI'd bhp with the associated torque would wipe the floor with Honda's 240 NA bhp and cost less (unless you are a skilled fabricator and don't count your labour cost)
Not really worth it unless its for a specific race class etc as the MX5 is so suited to Forced induction and there are plenty of cheap kits around.
240 FI'd bhp with the associated torque would wipe the floor with Honda's 240 NA bhp and cost less (unless you are a skilled fabricator and don't count your labour cost)
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