Toyo Proxes T1R - always this bad?
Discussion
I recently swapped my mk1's rear tyres to Toyo Proxes T1Rs (195 55 15), and since then the car has had a slightly unsettling rubbery feel at the rear.
This reached a point today where the back end seemed to dig in or bounce on the left side going around a roundabout, and I was sure I must have a puncture or very low pressure. Checked at a garage and found the usual 25 to 26 PSI in all 4 tyres.
I took the wheels off and checked all the suspension but all seems in order, so I thought I'd swap the tyres front to rear, so the Toyos are on the front.
Took it for a spin and nearly soiled myself at the first corner as I turned the wheel and nothing seemed to happen. After a bit more experimenting it seems the car now has a really nasty rubbery feeling at the front, the steering sharpness is gone and for the first time ever the car understeered.
I tried a few medium to hard stops and it locks the front wheels with incredible ease, and the surface of the tyres are starting to develop little rubber marbles on them.
The back end with the Champiros now feels rock solid and grippy and sharp again, as it did before the Toyos went on.
Frankly I'm not going to drive it again in this state as whichever end the Toyos are on feels dangerously unpredictable, but I wondered perhaps if I have the pressures wrong or they take more than a couple of hundred miles to bed in?
This reached a point today where the back end seemed to dig in or bounce on the left side going around a roundabout, and I was sure I must have a puncture or very low pressure. Checked at a garage and found the usual 25 to 26 PSI in all 4 tyres.
I took the wheels off and checked all the suspension but all seems in order, so I thought I'd swap the tyres front to rear, so the Toyos are on the front.
Took it for a spin and nearly soiled myself at the first corner as I turned the wheel and nothing seemed to happen. After a bit more experimenting it seems the car now has a really nasty rubbery feeling at the front, the steering sharpness is gone and for the first time ever the car understeered.
I tried a few medium to hard stops and it locks the front wheels with incredible ease, and the surface of the tyres are starting to develop little rubber marbles on them.
The back end with the Champiros now feels rock solid and grippy and sharp again, as it did before the Toyos went on.
Frankly I'm not going to drive it again in this state as whichever end the Toyos are on feels dangerously unpredictable, but I wondered perhaps if I have the pressures wrong or they take more than a couple of hundred miles to bed in?
hi Jim,
my first advise for road use is to up the pressures to around the 30psi mark for road use and scub them in a bit. I have had four sets of these on my Mk1 over the last 2 years and find they are susceptible to pressure. on track i drop them down to about 26 to allow for heat to increase the pressures. I dont think the side walls are particularly strong and will therefore roll if underinflated. Im no tyre expert, just going on experience. On a recent trip to Cadwell i noticed i was a bit all at see on the Lincolnshire back roads, when checking pressures prior to track time i was on about 18psi all round. Quick inflate later and all was good.
More recently just got back from holiday and not used the car for 3 weeks and the pressures were shot so a quick visit to the garage, up to 28 all round and a nice hoon round the south downs relishing in the razor sharp steering. Stay with them and experiment a bit and you will find, for the money, they are a decent tyre.
For the record, i have only got through 4 sets in 2 years as i do tend to do a lot of trackdays and give them hell!!
D
my first advise for road use is to up the pressures to around the 30psi mark for road use and scub them in a bit. I have had four sets of these on my Mk1 over the last 2 years and find they are susceptible to pressure. on track i drop them down to about 26 to allow for heat to increase the pressures. I dont think the side walls are particularly strong and will therefore roll if underinflated. Im no tyre expert, just going on experience. On a recent trip to Cadwell i noticed i was a bit all at see on the Lincolnshire back roads, when checking pressures prior to track time i was on about 18psi all round. Quick inflate later and all was good.
More recently just got back from holiday and not used the car for 3 weeks and the pressures were shot so a quick visit to the garage, up to 28 all round and a nice hoon round the south downs relishing in the razor sharp steering. Stay with them and experiment a bit and you will find, for the money, they are a decent tyre.
For the record, i have only got through 4 sets in 2 years as i do tend to do a lot of trackdays and give them hell!!
D
Thanks for the info, I will give them a try at 30 and see how they feel then before I swap them for something else.
After a bit of research I've found a few other instances where people experienced the same thing where the rear end feels squashy and prone to a sort of rubber-band effect when changing direction where it bounces into line, which is what I was experiencing, and also 1 occurrence of the sidewall folding over which is i think what happened to me earlier.
I'm a bit disappointed though as the car was able to stop faster with no locking in the rain with the Champiros than the Toyos can manage in the dry, which is not what I was expecting, and the feel of the Champiros is razor sharp in comparison too.
After a bit of research I've found a few other instances where people experienced the same thing where the rear end feels squashy and prone to a sort of rubber-band effect when changing direction where it bounces into line, which is what I was experiencing, and also 1 occurrence of the sidewall folding over which is i think what happened to me earlier.
I'm a bit disappointed though as the car was able to stop faster with no locking in the rain with the Champiros than the Toyos can manage in the dry, which is not what I was expecting, and the feel of the Champiros is razor sharp in comparison too.
JimSuperSix said:
I recently swapped my mk1's rear tyres to Toyo Proxes T1Rs (195 55 15), and since then the car has had a slightly unsettling rubbery feel at the rear.
This reached a point today where the back end seemed to dig in or bounce on the left side going around a roundabout, and I was sure I must have a puncture or very low pressure. Checked at a garage and found the usual 25 to 26 PSI in all 4 tyres.
2 things which are likely causes here.This reached a point today where the back end seemed to dig in or bounce on the left side going around a roundabout, and I was sure I must have a puncture or very low pressure. Checked at a garage and found the usual 25 to 26 PSI in all 4 tyres.
1) Stock tyre size is 195 50 15. You're running more sidewall than you should be.
2) Toyo's have notoriously soft sidewalls. Run a higher tyre pressures to compensate. I have mine at 30psi.
As above, 30psi seems to work best for these tyres. Also, all tyres when new have a coating (to help them come out of the mould) which needs to be worn off before they start working properly. The usual advice is to drive carefully for the 1st 200-250 miles to bed them in then they will really start working for you.
Richyvrlimited said:
1) Stock tyre size is 195 50 15. You're running more sidewall than you should be
It has Rays Mazdaspeed wheels on it, which I brought over from my old 1.6, so both cars have always had that size tyre on it for about 8 years+, and they have always handled fantastically well.Anyway I couldn't put new 50s on the rear with it having 55s on the front.
I'll try 30psi and see what happens.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 22 September 22:19
JimSuperSix said:
It has Rays Mazdaspeed wheels on it, which I brought over from my old 1.6, so both cars have always had that size tyre on it for about 8 years+, and they have always handled fantastically well.
Anyway I couldn't put new 50s on the rear with it having 55s on the front.
I'll try 30psi and see what happens.
Whomever you bought the Rays/1.6 MX5 from from must have had the wrong tyres fitted too... Anyway I couldn't put new 50s on the rear with it having 55s on the front.
I'll try 30psi and see what happens.
Edited by JimSuperSix on Monday 22 September 22:19
They could well have come from a similar era Honda. The Civic/DelSol and Intergra all had 195/55/15 fitted.
195 50 15 are much cheaper tyres too FWIW
Sometimes combinations of different tyres can play out in strange ways, at one stage I had T1Rs on the fron of the Legacy and Bridgestone RE001 on the rear, it was actually bad enough to call dangerous - the nose was all over the place. Swapped the T1Rs to the rear and it was tolerable, once they died the RE001 all round were much better.
It was a similar problem to what you're finding - overly soft sidewalls causing nasty handling issues - the front end was vague, wooly and just all over the place following bumps, cambers etc.
With soft sidewalls all round it was a bit less precise than with stiffer tyres, but still predictable and progressive - that particular combination was terrible though.
Never had that problem on an MX5 but I never had T1Rs on them... I did have a pair of kingstars on one! In the wet they were hilarious on the rear and just scary on the front.
It was a similar problem to what you're finding - overly soft sidewalls causing nasty handling issues - the front end was vague, wooly and just all over the place following bumps, cambers etc.
With soft sidewalls all round it was a bit less precise than with stiffer tyres, but still predictable and progressive - that particular combination was terrible though.
Never had that problem on an MX5 but I never had T1Rs on them... I did have a pair of kingstars on one! In the wet they were hilarious on the rear and just scary on the front.
I've tried them at about 30 to 31 psi, and although it's a bit better the steering sharpness and immediate turn-in that I was getting from the Champiros is still missing. There is still a slightly unsettling vagueness about the front end, more akin to winter tyres where you have to turn the wheel and wait for the car to catch up.
Braking performance is still woeful - it will lock either or both front wheels on a dry road with what I would class as medium braking effort, ie braking hard but not as much as you'd want to use in an emergency stop.
Cornering grip seemed OK but if the braking is still bad I've no reason to believe they will grip sideways much better than they did before, which was also terrible.
The tyres have been on both ends of the car for perhaps 4 months in total now, not certain of exact mileage but it's much more than just a couple of hundred miles so they've had plenty of chance to bed in a bit, and they're spoiling my enjoyment of the car completely so a new pair of Champiros will be going on ASAP and these can be kept as emergency spares or sold.
I just have no trust at all that during cornering the sidewall wont suddenly fold over again and let the rim fall dangerously close to the ground, luckily I got away with it last time but not taking that chance again.
Also the MX5 is a small very old car with bugger-all safety features, so I want to be able to stop as quickly as is possible the next time someone somehow fails to see it.
Braking performance is still woeful - it will lock either or both front wheels on a dry road with what I would class as medium braking effort, ie braking hard but not as much as you'd want to use in an emergency stop.
Cornering grip seemed OK but if the braking is still bad I've no reason to believe they will grip sideways much better than they did before, which was also terrible.
The tyres have been on both ends of the car for perhaps 4 months in total now, not certain of exact mileage but it's much more than just a couple of hundred miles so they've had plenty of chance to bed in a bit, and they're spoiling my enjoyment of the car completely so a new pair of Champiros will be going on ASAP and these can be kept as emergency spares or sold.
I just have no trust at all that during cornering the sidewall wont suddenly fold over again and let the rim fall dangerously close to the ground, luckily I got away with it last time but not taking that chance again.
Also the MX5 is a small very old car with bugger-all safety features, so I want to be able to stop as quickly as is possible the next time someone somehow fails to see it.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 24th September 08:03
I had them on my Cerbera. They were horrible tyres. Marginal in the dry and suicidal in the wet. They are proof that a brand name will sell regardless of facts. I chucked mine with 5mm still left on them and fitted Kumho Ecsta's. Hardly a known top end super tyre with a multi billion dollar brand behind them. The transformation was night and day. They stick like s
t to a blanket wet or dry and got me a first in class at Santa Pod in 2012.
t to a blanket wet or dry and got me a first in class at Santa Pod in 2012.It is absolutely vital that you fit the right size tyre to the right size rim, and run it at the right pressure before any judgement is made. The Toyo might be an older design but when I was sprinting twelve years ago, an Exige in my class on those tyres was untouchable, and pretty useful in the wet too. Tyre technology simply hasn't moved on so far as to make these tyres somehow rubbish
I couple of years ago I binned a set of Linglong Ditch-Finders for T1-R's on an MR-2 Roadster, mainly after reading forum recommendations for them.
What a mistake, I found the T1-R's shocking.
Dry grip wasn't bad, but completely destroyed steering feel and ultimately handling and confidence.
Replaced them with Kumho Ecsta which I got on with much better.
On the MX-5 I now use Federal 595 RSR as an outstanding value track tyre, but amazed how good (relatively) they are in the wet, so keep them on all year round.
If it was a daily drive though, I would probably go for the Kuhmo Ecsta's again.
Not going anywhere near Toyo's again, on anything.
What a mistake, I found the T1-R's shocking.
Dry grip wasn't bad, but completely destroyed steering feel and ultimately handling and confidence.
Replaced them with Kumho Ecsta which I got on with much better.
On the MX-5 I now use Federal 595 RSR as an outstanding value track tyre, but amazed how good (relatively) they are in the wet, so keep them on all year round.
If it was a daily drive though, I would probably go for the Kuhmo Ecsta's again.
Not going anywhere near Toyo's again, on anything.
They certainly aren't shockingly bad and won't ruin any MX5. On a heavier car maybe.
AD08s might well be a fair bit better but that's not comparing like-for-like. A set of 195/50/15 can be had for £150 which is around the price of 1 AD08.
I've had Dunlop SP2000, Yoko A509/520, Bridgestone S02/SO3, Goodyear F1 GSD2/GSD3, Michelin PS2 and now running Toyo T1R. Of those the Bridgestone S02 was the best. The GSD3 and T1R are on a par with each other, the GSD3 being slightly better in the wet and T1R better dry, both being bad on cold roads. Mixing a pair of one with a pair of another always made it feel bad, regardless of what they were so I always make sure I change all my tyres as a set of 4.
AD08s might well be a fair bit better but that's not comparing like-for-like. A set of 195/50/15 can be had for £150 which is around the price of 1 AD08.
I've had Dunlop SP2000, Yoko A509/520, Bridgestone S02/SO3, Goodyear F1 GSD2/GSD3, Michelin PS2 and now running Toyo T1R. Of those the Bridgestone S02 was the best. The GSD3 and T1R are on a par with each other, the GSD3 being slightly better in the wet and T1R better dry, both being bad on cold roads. Mixing a pair of one with a pair of another always made it feel bad, regardless of what they were so I always make sure I change all my tyres as a set of 4.
I had Pirelli P5000 Drago's on the MX5 for a long time. Great tyre wet and dry, good feel and only replaced becuase one got badly ripped on the sidewall and I couldn't get them anymore. Still got 2 on the front. Toyos on the rear are good for grip in the dry, not tried them in the wet. However they do feel different, not as sharp. On a quick turn in the back end moves noticeably sideways then settles in and grips for the rest of the corner. My guess is this is it taking up the compliance in the sidewalls. A little unsettling at first but when you tune it into your driving you barely notice it.
I must try upping the pressures a little. I've always run 26-28 out of habit.
I must try upping the pressures a little. I've always run 26-28 out of habit.
MX-5 Lazza said:
They certainly aren't shockingly bad and won't ruin any MX5.
Well what I have experienced certainly points to the opposite:1. the fronts lock at the slightest sign of hard braking.
2. first time I've ever had understeer in an MX5.
3. the left rear sidewall folded over as I took a roundabout, leading to the car suddenly dropping and bouncing sideways.
4. the steering feels numb and vague and cornering becomes a 2-stage process of turn and then see what happens.
5. 26 or 30 psi made no real difference to the steering feel of the car, and no difference to the braking performance.
They have certainly ruined my car and the incident with the rear folding over could easily have ended up a lot worse.
JimSuperSix said:
the left rear sidewall folded over as I took a roundabout, leading to the car suddenly dropping and bouncing sideways
Can you post a photo? I have no idea how that could happen. I drive like my arse is on fire around twisty country roads and nothing even remotely like that ever happens?How are you measuring the pressure? Have you tried a different gauge?
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