Basic Turbo Set-up - Shopping List?
Discussion
I've only had my MX5 a few weeks and my mind has already turned to turbocharging!
Cash is the main restriction; so I was planning to sort out what I need to buy, set up some eBay notifications and get parts needed when they're available cheaply and it looks like the sort of thing I should be able to fit myself.
I'm only aiming for 140-150 bhp from my 1992 1.6 Eunos; so no major increases (just enough to make the back-end respond to a poke from the skinny pedal better). Having read the Flyin' Miata n00b stuff; I'm a little clearer on what I need and also a lot more confused!! Here's what I THINK I need; can anyone confirm/advise either way?
-Turbo (T24/T25/TD04)
-Turbo Manifold with relief cuts
-Turbo Downpipe (I'm close to Custom Chrome Racing so may get them to fabricate)
-Bipes ACU
-O2 clamp
-Fuel Pressure Regulator (I'm not sure if I actually need this).
The other option to consider is the BEGi Starter kits which come with a Chinese turbo - they're fairly affordable, but I'd be a bit concerned about the lifespan of the turbo; although BEGi claim to have tested one with no issues reported.
As I said, I'm not aiming for anything like 200bhp, so I'm not going down the route of Megasquirt, larger injectors etc - just something basic, reliable and cheap.
Also, if anyone does have any of the above parts available, just let me know!
Cash is the main restriction; so I was planning to sort out what I need to buy, set up some eBay notifications and get parts needed when they're available cheaply and it looks like the sort of thing I should be able to fit myself.
I'm only aiming for 140-150 bhp from my 1992 1.6 Eunos; so no major increases (just enough to make the back-end respond to a poke from the skinny pedal better). Having read the Flyin' Miata n00b stuff; I'm a little clearer on what I need and also a lot more confused!! Here's what I THINK I need; can anyone confirm/advise either way?
-Turbo (T24/T25/TD04)
-Turbo Manifold with relief cuts
-Turbo Downpipe (I'm close to Custom Chrome Racing so may get them to fabricate)
-Bipes ACU
-O2 clamp
-Fuel Pressure Regulator (I'm not sure if I actually need this).
The other option to consider is the BEGi Starter kits which come with a Chinese turbo - they're fairly affordable, but I'd be a bit concerned about the lifespan of the turbo; although BEGi claim to have tested one with no issues reported.
As I said, I'm not aiming for anything like 200bhp, so I'm not going down the route of Megasquirt, larger injectors etc - just something basic, reliable and cheap.
Also, if anyone does have any of the above parts available, just let me know!
I might be wrong but I'm strongly under the impression that even with moderate boost, turbo, cheap and reliable don't mix very well. So it might be worth saving a bit more.
I'm planning to go down the turbo route myself but I don't want to do it on the cheap so I'm planning to take about a year to collect part / save enough cash etc.
What's your budget ? You forgot to include a new clutch in your list btw.
I'm planning to go down the turbo route myself but I don't want to do it on the cheap so I'm planning to take about a year to collect part / save enough cash etc.
What's your budget ? You forgot to include a new clutch in your list btw.
Also you don't seem to have included any cooling ?
Again I'm far from being an expert but even if you don't want big power, I'm pretty sure you will need at least an intercooler if you want it half reliable.
Don't forget that you're asking for nearly 50% power increase here ( depending on your specific model ? ).
Again I'm far from being an expert but even if you don't want big power, I'm pretty sure you will need at least an intercooler if you want it half reliable.
Don't forget that you're asking for nearly 50% power increase here ( depending on your specific model ? ).
Edited by ftrigger on Monday 7th April 15:44
By the time you've acquired all the crap band aids, you may aswell have bought a megasquirt and larger injectors..
If you're going to really cheap out on the important bits, it will be an unreliable, slow and drive like crap IMO.
It honestly isn't difficult to plug a megasquirt in, wideband o2 sensor and some bigger injectors.
If you're going to really cheap out on the important bits, it will be an unreliable, slow and drive like crap IMO.
It honestly isn't difficult to plug a megasquirt in, wideband o2 sensor and some bigger injectors.
I'll be happy if I can do it for less than £1k.
From reading the Flyin' Miata guides, I shouldn't need an IC or an uprated clutch until about 180bhp. Obviously it would be sensible to uprate the clutch when my current one starts to go, but I don't see much point in doing so before hand. Same with the IC; if you calculate the required size of the IC for the power I'd be aiming for; it's such a small figure it seems unnecessary - again, FM says that one shouldn't be required until closer to 200bhp. I had considered an IC to be something that would follow the turbo installation.
As for Megasquirt etc, it is actually quite a lot more money and isn't necessary unless you're changing injectors (which I wouldn't need to for this sort of power).
My plan is to keep my eye out on eBay for a good used or recon turbo - Garrett or similar; I was merely pondering the option of a new Chinese turbo vs. a used branded turbo. That said, I would rather stick to a branded one.
From reading the Flyin' Miata guides, I shouldn't need an IC or an uprated clutch until about 180bhp. Obviously it would be sensible to uprate the clutch when my current one starts to go, but I don't see much point in doing so before hand. Same with the IC; if you calculate the required size of the IC for the power I'd be aiming for; it's such a small figure it seems unnecessary - again, FM says that one shouldn't be required until closer to 200bhp. I had considered an IC to be something that would follow the turbo installation.
As for Megasquirt etc, it is actually quite a lot more money and isn't necessary unless you're changing injectors (which I wouldn't need to for this sort of power).
My plan is to keep my eye out on eBay for a good used or recon turbo - Garrett or similar; I was merely pondering the option of a new Chinese turbo vs. a used branded turbo. That said, I would rather stick to a branded one.
This all sounds like a bad idea. A poorly set up low pressure turbo adding only 20bhp or so is more likely to blow the engine then a well sorted package that adds 200bhp.
Cheap. Reliable. Powerful. Choose 2.
The Bikes ACU just retards timing on boost. You need something to control fueling or at the very least add extra fuel on boost. A rising rate fuel pressure regulator will do it but its a broad-brush approach that just dumps fuel. To keep the engine safe you'll be retarding a lot of timing and adding a lot of extra fuel just to stop it detonating. It'll feel rubbish to drive. Yes it'll have a bit more power than stock but there's more to it than just power.
Are you sure you even need the extra power? Are you getting the most from what you have? Full power on the 1.6 is around 6.5krpm so you have to thrash it. Also, if you can't get the back end out with stock power, just adding extra power isn't going to help you much.
Cheap. Reliable. Powerful. Choose 2.
The Bikes ACU just retards timing on boost. You need something to control fueling or at the very least add extra fuel on boost. A rising rate fuel pressure regulator will do it but its a broad-brush approach that just dumps fuel. To keep the engine safe you'll be retarding a lot of timing and adding a lot of extra fuel just to stop it detonating. It'll feel rubbish to drive. Yes it'll have a bit more power than stock but there's more to it than just power.
Are you sure you even need the extra power? Are you getting the most from what you have? Full power on the 1.6 is around 6.5krpm so you have to thrash it. Also, if you can't get the back end out with stock power, just adding extra power isn't going to help you much.
ryanMIL said:
Here's what I THINK I need; can anyone confirm/advise either way?
-Turbo (T24/T25/TD04)
-Turbo Manifold with relief cuts
-Turbo Downpipe (I'm close to Custom Chrome Racing so may get them to fabricate)
-Bipes ACU
-O2 clamp
-Fuel Pressure Regulator (I'm not sure if I actually need this).
Plus a full service kit.-Turbo (T24/T25/TD04)
-Turbo Manifold with relief cuts
-Turbo Downpipe (I'm close to Custom Chrome Racing so may get them to fabricate)
-Bipes ACU
-O2 clamp
-Fuel Pressure Regulator (I'm not sure if I actually need this).
Oil.
Lots of bits of Hose.
A wideband.
A boost gauge.
Vacuum tubing.
Refurbing your 2nd hand turbo.
New gaskets all over the place.
A thermostat
Coolant
Maybe a radiator
A step drill and tap
Oil drain pipe
Oil feed pipe
Lots of p-clips
some wiring
Probably some tools you don't have
Some heat sheilding
A washer bottle+pump
An air filter
Loads of band clamps/jubilees
A differntial and driveshafts
A brake service all round
etc etc etc...
Not trying to put you off, but there's a LOT more to it than just the basics on your list. And that stuff all starts to add up to a lot. If you don't spend the right money on those things, you end up with the bodged, unreliable junk cars that run like crap, leak like seives, blow up, aren't all that quick but ZOMG BOOOST so it must be better. I've spent a small fortune on mine getting it to a neat, tidy, safe install.
ryanMIL said:
I'm only aiming for 140-150 bhp from my 1992 1.6 Eunos; so no major increases (just enough to make the back-end respond to a poke from the skinny pedal better).
Put a 1.8 in there. 140hp for £300. Easy.Seriously, I'm actually considering ditching the turbo all together. a 99 1.8 engine, tuned, skimmed, with a megasquirt, running say 160bhp, is going to be hilarious in an early 1.6 car. And would be ultra reliable, light, and quite easy to do.
OP, before you spend a penny on turbo bits I would very strongly recommend that you purchase and read
"Street turbocharging" by Mark Warner.
It's very well written, easy to read and extremely informative.
By the time you're half way through you will understand why what you're trying to do is a very bad idea, and by the time you're finished you'll know what you need to do to do it properly and that anything even remotely good to drive and reliable is going to cost at least 3 times your budget.
"Street turbocharging" by Mark Warner.
It's very well written, easy to read and extremely informative.
By the time you're half way through you will understand why what you're trying to do is a very bad idea, and by the time you're finished you'll know what you need to do to do it properly and that anything even remotely good to drive and reliable is going to cost at least 3 times your budget.
By the time you've acquired all the crap band aids, you may aswell have bought a megasquirt and larger injectors..
If you're going to really cheap out on the important bits, it will be an unreliable, slow and drive like crap IMO.
It honestly isn't difficult to plug a megasquirt in, wideband o2 sensor and some bigger injectors.
^ this
If you're going to really cheap out on the important bits, it will be an unreliable, slow and drive like crap IMO.
It honestly isn't difficult to plug a megasquirt in, wideband o2 sensor and some bigger injectors.
^ this
snotrag said:
Put a 1.8 in there. 140hp for £300. Easy.
This may actually be an alternative, but most of the things which you've listed I need to do when turboing would also apply to this option - I actually think it would end up more expensive; £300 for an engine swap really isn't taking into account the other things that would need doing (full service kit, oil, new gaskets all over the place, coolant, maybe a radiator, an air filter, a differential and drive shafts, a brake service all round, clutch, engine hoist, ancilliaries). And then if you want to gain more power from there, options are limited and NA tuning is very expensive for comparitively small gains. Given that; I think I would rather go FI.Some of the things on your 'don't turbo your car' list aren't actually required, or are a given anyway; so you're making it looks worse than it is.
I get what everyone is saying about Megasquirt being simple and the best option; but the general consensus (from proper articles I've read, not forum hype) is that this level of management just isn't required for the set-up I'm considering.
Are you saying that the 'starter' GReddy and BEGi kits are dangerous/unreliable/crap to drive? Because that's basically the same spec which I'm aiming for - just that I know I can get all of those parts for less money. These kits are fairly widely used and have good reviews. People use these as a basis to slowly upgrade over their ownership of the car - same as which I would most likely do.
i.e:
- Stuvoro manifold/downpipe and oil lines (£400)
- Used Garrett/Mitsubishi/IHI TD04 Turbo (£100)
- Bipes ACU (£190)
- RRFPR (£125)
- Olderguy O2 Clamp (£100)
-Some heat shielding for the surrounding resivoirs/pipes (£20)
As for other items which you think I may have missed;
-Car has just had a full service (ALL fluids, ALL filters, plugs/leads) and will probably have at least one more before the turbo actually goes on.
-My brakes will be getting done within the next month, I've got the 1.8 clapier brackets, new 1.8 discs and EBC Yellow Stuff pads
-I would uprate my clutch once the current one starts to go, not before - that's just stupid.
I've heard the "Cheap/Reliable/Powerful - choose 2" line before. As I'm only looking for a ~30% power increase, I'll opt for Cheap/Reliable.
I guess the question is, do you know anyone who has spent that kind of money on their turbo conversion, achieved a similar power figure and who is actually happy with it medium term ?
As in the car drives nicely and they're not spending all their time under the bonnet fixing some hose that came off or something or the other that melted, seized or cracked.
Most people who try to do it on the cheap seem to end up disliking the car and selling it soon after.
As in the car drives nicely and they're not spending all their time under the bonnet fixing some hose that came off or something or the other that melted, seized or cracked.
Most people who try to do it on the cheap seem to end up disliking the car and selling it soon after.
The begi equipment is very good. I use their cast exhaust manifold and huge stainless downpipe and they are currently making me a one off 8 injector inlet manifold. BUT you are going to spend $2000+ to get to the power of a 1.8. If you want more later virtually none of the big ticket items in what you bought is any use to you.
A non cast exhaust manifold is a hiding to nothing. Tried several and they lasted between 2 hours and 1 week. Save your money.. There are a few companies that make top quality welded tubular turbo exhaust manifolds but choose carefully and make sure they guarantee it or walk away. The Chinese one on ebay that looks like a bunch of shiny bananas is utter rubbish, that was the 2 hour one! Warranty return, no chance, they didn't want to know.
Bodging the ECU signals to make it just barely runnable with a turbo is a short path to a dead engine. Cheap. yes, reliable no.
A non cast exhaust manifold is a hiding to nothing. Tried several and they lasted between 2 hours and 1 week. Save your money.. There are a few companies that make top quality welded tubular turbo exhaust manifolds but choose carefully and make sure they guarantee it or walk away. The Chinese one on ebay that looks like a bunch of shiny bananas is utter rubbish, that was the 2 hour one! Warranty return, no chance, they didn't want to know.
Bodging the ECU signals to make it just barely runnable with a turbo is a short path to a dead engine. Cheap. yes, reliable no.
Only this really;
www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6457&...
There's not much I can find on the forums.
Anyway; I gather the general consensus is 'go big or go home'...suppose I'll go home!
www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6457&...
There's not much I can find on the forums.
Anyway; I gather the general consensus is 'go big or go home'...suppose I'll go home!
ryanMIL said:
I get what everyone is saying about Megasquirt being simple and the best option; but the general consensus (from proper articles I've read, not forum hype) is that this level of management just isn't required for the set-up I'm considering.
- Bipes ACU (£190)
- RRFPR (£125)
- Olderguy O2 Clamp (£100)
Umm that's over £400 there. More than a megasquirt. You don't need ms but there's no point spending more on something worse.- Bipes ACU (£190)
- RRFPR (£125)
- Olderguy O2 Clamp (£100)
Your best bet value for money is to find a bbr interceptor piggyback ecu. Probably pick one up for £60-80
Edited by skinny on Tuesday 8th April 21:51
fatjon said:
A non cast exhaust manifold is a hiding to nothing. Tried several and they lasted between 2 hours and 1 week. Save your money.. There are a few companies that make top quality welded tubular turbo exhaust manifolds but choose carefully and make sure they guarantee it or walk away. The Chinese one on ebay that looks like a bunch of shiny bananas is utter rubbish, that was the 2 hour one! Warranty return, no chance, they didn't want to know.
SCh40 welded manifolds are at elast as strong as the usual cast manifolds. Don' confuse eBay stainless tubular manifolds with mild steel Sch40 mani's.The stuff the OP is thinking of getting from Struvo will be the last thing left after the car has rusted down the drain.
VladD said:
Just as a slight tanget, which would be the best 1.8 engine to turbo?
As far as I know the Mk2 was different from the Mk1 and the Mk2.5 different again.
They're all as 'good' as each other.As far as I know the Mk2 was different from the Mk1 and the Mk2.5 different again.
The MK2.5 has a higher compression ratio, so needs slightly more careful tuning. the MK2.5 also has VVT which can greatly improve spool.
The MK1 has the worst flowing head, but they all still end up making largely the same power - the MK1's lower compression ratio means you can run more boost to compensate for the worse flowing head.
IMO the MK2.5 motor is the best one to go for due to the VVT advantages, but that also requires a slightly more expensive ECU to control it.
Just been doing a little looking around at manifolds. Can't find any "Struvo" manifolds. Do you mean "Sturovo". Some guy in Czech republic who made a welded up one? If so I will stick with a BEGI cast one..
There certainly are some very good schedule 4O manifolds around and if the job was a one off and I couldn't get an off the shelf cast one I would take that route but they are pretty pricey and in my experience (which is quite a lot) they rarely outlast a good quality cast manifold. They do of course tend to flow better though and you can get it made to your own specifications which is handy.
There certainly are some very good schedule 4O manifolds around and if the job was a one off and I couldn't get an off the shelf cast one I would take that route but they are pretty pricey and in my experience (which is quite a lot) they rarely outlast a good quality cast manifold. They do of course tend to flow better though and you can get it made to your own specifications which is handy.
Richyvrlimited said:
VladD said:
Just as a slight tanget, which would be the best 1.8 engine to turbo?
As far as I know the Mk2 was different from the Mk1 and the Mk2.5 different again.
They're all as 'good' as each other.As far as I know the Mk2 was different from the Mk1 and the Mk2.5 different again.
The MK2.5 has a higher compression ratio, so needs slightly more careful tuning. the MK2.5 also has VVT which can greatly improve spool.
The MK1 has the worst flowing head, but they all still end up making largely the same power - the MK1's lower compression ratio means you can run more boost to compensate for the worse flowing head.
IMO the MK2.5 motor is the best one to go for due to the VVT advantages, but that also requires a slightly more expensive ECU to control it.
I wonder if anyone has ever gone for the twin sequential turbo route, like was fitted to the Toyota Supra.
skinny said:
Umm that's over £400 there. More than a megasquirt. You don't need ms but there's no point spending more on something worse.
Your best bet value for money is to find a bbr interceptor piggyback ecu. Probably pick one up for £60-80
Interesting; so the BBR piggyback ECU will do what I need it to? To be honest, it's the air/fuel management part which I'm struggling to get my head around because there's so much conflicting information aroundYour best bet value for money is to find a bbr interceptor piggyback ecu. Probably pick one up for £60-80
Edited by skinny on Tuesday 8th April 21:51
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