thinking of a csl to replace a 993 rs?
Discussion
Hi,
Are there any 911 drivers who now have a csl? Love the CSL and they seem to perform well on track. I understand that they ideally benefit from AP's and KW's (or similar). Is there anything else they need? Car would be pure track tool and v minimal road use.
Seems to make sense to change and free up some cash. All advice appreciated, thanks in advance
Are there any 911 drivers who now have a csl? Love the CSL and they seem to perform well on track. I understand that they ideally benefit from AP's and KW's (or similar). Is there anything else they need? Car would be pure track tool and v minimal road use.
Seems to make sense to change and free up some cash. All advice appreciated, thanks in advance
sambaman!!!!!!!!I cant coment on the porker but there is a welth of info on here and some porker members now in the CSL
www.cslregister.com
www.cslregister.com
silver7 said:
Hi,
Are there any 911 drivers who now have a csl? Love the CSL and they seem to perform well on track. I understand that they ideally benefit from AP's and KW's (or similar). Is there anything else they need? Car would be pure track tool and v minimal road use.
Seems to make sense to change and free up some cash. All advice appreciated, thanks in advance
I sold a 993 c2 which was felted with including bilsteins (no RS by any means but much better than standard) and bought a CSL. I ran the CSL for 12 months and thoroughly enjoyed it but found it too clinical on the road. It handled far better than the 993 but was too easy to drive at silly speeds. I also found the steering numb relative to the 993 and found the gearbox lacked involvement. I then moved to a cooper s which reminded me of how rewarding steering feedback is! Are there any 911 drivers who now have a csl? Love the CSL and they seem to perform well on track. I understand that they ideally benefit from AP's and KW's (or similar). Is there anything else they need? Car would be pure track tool and v minimal road use.
Seems to make sense to change and free up some cash. All advice appreciated, thanks in advance
The turn in and sound is something else.
Just my opinion
thanks for the reply, much appreciated. So they lack steering feel? Can anything be upgraded to change that? On the RS I changed the track rod ends to cup ones which have no rubber at all so feel is very good (not nice for motorways though;)) Maybe there is an upgraded motorsport part?
I remember looking at buying some plates that can be attached to the top mounts of the front suspension which allow you to increase the caster. This apparently increases feedback. I also read that changing the camber on the front increased feedback and there are certain tyres that offer more than others. However, feedback is an know issue with the e46 steering setup. I ran a E90 diesal at the same time and the steering was significantly better. I now run an E39 M5 which has much better steering again.
You will find that the CSL steering doesn't load up particularly well which leaves you removed from what is going on at the front end.
You will find that the CSL steering doesn't load up particularly well which leaves you removed from what is going on at the front end.
Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Thursday 5th March 20:03
First off I'm not a trackday junkie, so my opinion is based solely on driving the 993 RS and the CSL on the road.
I would agree about the steering feel, the CSL takes a leap of faith to get turned in, and the front end feels a little soft which can make it feel like it rolls too much on initial turn in.
Drive through the initial vagueness and there is front end grip aplenty however.
Having owned a 993RS I'll say hand on heart I think they're the most overated RS of the lot. The 964 RS always felt a lot more honest in its suspension set up (admittedly it's too hard for anything other than billiard smooth roads, and there the 993 version scores over its elder sister) But having owned three 964 RSs I think they're far superior in terms of steering feel and seat of the pants "what's going on underneath you" feel when compared to the 993.
My subsequent ownership of a MK 1 GT3 proved just how totally overated the 993 RS was (IMO)
A previous poster commented that the CSL was too easy to drive at silly speeds and a bit clinical. That's akin to saying central heating's a bit dull compared to a real open fire !
Put bluntly the CSL with it's superb engine, long travel, compliant suspension and flappy paddle gearshift would make mincemeat out of a 993 RS on any give and take road.
I drove my CSL around France and Italy for 3,500 miles the day after I took delivery of it last Autumn.
Initially I wasn't convinced by the gearbox, but once I'd driven up and down the Col De Turini, Mount Ventoux and The Gorge Du Verdon, it all started to make perfect sense. Let us not forget the WRC cars use flappy paddle gearboxes, drive up the Col De Turini and you'll see why !!
The CSL does have character ( and THE best induction noise of any car this side of £100K) it takes time to find and appreciate it (and you'll struggle to find it driving on the roads of the UK if I'm totally honest)
My car has 6 pot APs on the front and the 4 pot APs on the back, they are peerless.
The suspension was set up by Chris Franklin at Center Gravity and the only way it could be improved would be with either Intrax or KW coilovers, which dfor road use would be overkill quite frankly.
Hope that helps.
I would agree about the steering feel, the CSL takes a leap of faith to get turned in, and the front end feels a little soft which can make it feel like it rolls too much on initial turn in.
Drive through the initial vagueness and there is front end grip aplenty however.
Having owned a 993RS I'll say hand on heart I think they're the most overated RS of the lot. The 964 RS always felt a lot more honest in its suspension set up (admittedly it's too hard for anything other than billiard smooth roads, and there the 993 version scores over its elder sister) But having owned three 964 RSs I think they're far superior in terms of steering feel and seat of the pants "what's going on underneath you" feel when compared to the 993.
My subsequent ownership of a MK 1 GT3 proved just how totally overated the 993 RS was (IMO)
A previous poster commented that the CSL was too easy to drive at silly speeds and a bit clinical. That's akin to saying central heating's a bit dull compared to a real open fire !
Put bluntly the CSL with it's superb engine, long travel, compliant suspension and flappy paddle gearshift would make mincemeat out of a 993 RS on any give and take road.
I drove my CSL around France and Italy for 3,500 miles the day after I took delivery of it last Autumn.
Initially I wasn't convinced by the gearbox, but once I'd driven up and down the Col De Turini, Mount Ventoux and The Gorge Du Verdon, it all started to make perfect sense. Let us not forget the WRC cars use flappy paddle gearboxes, drive up the Col De Turini and you'll see why !!
The CSL does have character ( and THE best induction noise of any car this side of £100K) it takes time to find and appreciate it (and you'll struggle to find it driving on the roads of the UK if I'm totally honest)
My car has 6 pot APs on the front and the 4 pot APs on the back, they are peerless.
The suspension was set up by Chris Franklin at Center Gravity and the only way it could be improved would be with either Intrax or KW coilovers, which dfor road use would be overkill quite frankly.
Hope that helps.
I think you'd find the CSL to be substantially quicker round the track than your 993. Have you tried an SMG M3? Bit of a change.
Your RS is lovely, but for a track tool a carefully upgraded CSL is a very good weapon.
Did you get a chance for a pax lap in the one at Bedford the other week?
Your RS is lovely, but for a track tool a carefully upgraded CSL is a very good weapon.
Did you get a chance for a pax lap in the one at Bedford the other week?
Hi Guys,
I haven't had a drive in one yet, need to.
Slippy diff, I agree that the standard 993 rs doesn't have great steering feel, however if you change to cup track rod ends the feel is better than a 964 rs as they have no rubber in them, you should have a go in one with that mod!
The csl looks like a good option though, am getting persuaded!
I haven't had a drive in one yet, need to.
Slippy diff, I agree that the standard 993 rs doesn't have great steering feel, however if you change to cup track rod ends the feel is better than a 964 rs as they have no rubber in them, you should have a go in one with that mod!
The csl looks like a good option though, am getting persuaded!
Edited by silver7 on Monday 9th March 18:37
The standard rack ends failed on my 993 RS and I replaced them with the standard items, the improvement was massive, but I felt the whole package was more biased towards a reduction in NVH than providing the bare bones drivers car that the 964 RS was.
The 993RS with it's multilink rear end and varioram engine just didn't provide the big leap in performance over the 964 that it promised. It was a luuuuuverly looking car all the same. . . .
The 993RS with it's multilink rear end and varioram engine just didn't provide the big leap in performance over the 964 that it promised. It was a luuuuuverly looking car all the same. . . .
Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 7th May 17:08
Slippydiff said:
First off I'm not a trackday junkie, so my opinion is based solely on driving the 993 RS and the CSL on the road.
I would agree about the steering feel, the CSL takes a leap of faith to get turned in, and the front end feels a little soft which can make it feel like it rolls too much on initial turn in.
Drive through the initial vagueness and there is front end grip aplenty however.
Having owned a 993RS I'll say hand on heart I think they're the most overated RS of the lot. The 964 RS always felt a lot more honest in its suspension set up (admittedly it's too hard for anything other than billiard smooth roads, and there the 993 version scores over its elder sister) But having owned three 964 RSs I think they're far superior in terms of steering feel and seat of the pants "what's going on underneath you" feel when compared to the 993.
My subsequent ownership of a MK 1 GT3 proved just how totally overated the 993 RS was (IMO)
A previous poster commented that the CSL was too easy to drive at silly speeds and a bit clinical. That's akin to saying central heating's a bit dull compared to a real open fire !
Put bluntly the CSL with it's superb engine, long travel, compliant suspension and flappy paddle gearshift would make mincemeat out of a 993 RS on any give and take road.
I drove my CSL around France and Italy for 3,500 miles the day after I took delivery of it last Autumn.
Initially I wasn't convinced by the gearbox, but once I'd driven up and down the Col De Turini, Mount Ventoux and The Gorge Du Verdon, it all started to make perfect sense. Let us not forget the WRC cars use flappy paddle gearboxes, drive up the Col De Turini and you'll see why !!
The CSL does have character ( and THE best induction noise of any car this side of £100K) it takes time to find and appreciate it (and you'll struggle to find it driving on the roads of the UK if I'm totally honest)
My car has 6 pot APs on the front and the 4 pot APs on the back, they are peerless.
The suspension was set up by Chris Franklin at Center Gravity and the only way it could be improved would be with either Intrax or KW coilovers, which dfor road use would be overkill quite frankly.
Hope that helps.
Excellent summary. I owned a 993RS for a few years, and currently own an M3 CSL. I would agree about the steering feel, the CSL takes a leap of faith to get turned in, and the front end feels a little soft which can make it feel like it rolls too much on initial turn in.
Drive through the initial vagueness and there is front end grip aplenty however.
Having owned a 993RS I'll say hand on heart I think they're the most overated RS of the lot. The 964 RS always felt a lot more honest in its suspension set up (admittedly it's too hard for anything other than billiard smooth roads, and there the 993 version scores over its elder sister) But having owned three 964 RSs I think they're far superior in terms of steering feel and seat of the pants "what's going on underneath you" feel when compared to the 993.
My subsequent ownership of a MK 1 GT3 proved just how totally overated the 993 RS was (IMO)
A previous poster commented that the CSL was too easy to drive at silly speeds and a bit clinical. That's akin to saying central heating's a bit dull compared to a real open fire !
Put bluntly the CSL with it's superb engine, long travel, compliant suspension and flappy paddle gearshift would make mincemeat out of a 993 RS on any give and take road.
I drove my CSL around France and Italy for 3,500 miles the day after I took delivery of it last Autumn.
Initially I wasn't convinced by the gearbox, but once I'd driven up and down the Col De Turini, Mount Ventoux and The Gorge Du Verdon, it all started to make perfect sense. Let us not forget the WRC cars use flappy paddle gearboxes, drive up the Col De Turini and you'll see why !!
The CSL does have character ( and THE best induction noise of any car this side of £100K) it takes time to find and appreciate it (and you'll struggle to find it driving on the roads of the UK if I'm totally honest)
My car has 6 pot APs on the front and the 4 pot APs on the back, they are peerless.
The suspension was set up by Chris Franklin at Center Gravity and the only way it could be improved would be with either Intrax or KW coilovers, which dfor road use would be overkill quite frankly.
Hope that helps.
The 993RS is so pretty, though.
silver7 said:
looks lovely, a clubsport isn't it? the cup track rod ends really help as there is zero rubber in them.
I agree that the GT3's are good value at the moment, and getting cheaper by the looks of it. If you rate the csl then I need to drive one asap I think
Somewhere between CS and "basic" spec I think ! factory fit CS spoilers but no cage, it came fully carpeted and was fitted with a 993 Cup wheel from the factory (a really rare option apparently) no leccy windows, no air con, no air bags, it DID have comfort seats though I agree that the GT3's are good value at the moment, and getting cheaper by the looks of it. If you rate the csl then I need to drive one asap I think
The previous owner took them out and fitted the Recaros you can see in the picture. I subsequently swapped them for a pair of 968 CS seats out of red CS, so they had red backs too 
As regards the CSL, if you're ever up near Birmingham and your license isn't in tatters, feel free to come for a drive in mine. Just be warned, once you've been bitten, you'll most likely be smitten !
For track work quite a few owners have bolted rear wheels onto the front of their cars to enable them to run larger section front tyres to reduce the understeer. I believe it requires the car to run with large amounts of negative camber to make them clear the arches though.
Have a chat with the lads at Thorney (KW) or Simpson Motorsort (Intrax)for their views on improving the CSL for track use.
HTH
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 10th March 17:52
Slippydiff said:
Somewhere between CS and "basic" spec I think ! factory fit CS spoilers but no cage, it came fully carpeted and was fitted with a 993 Cup wheel from the factory (a really rare option apparently) no leccy windows, no air con, no air bags, it DID have comfort seats though The previous owner took them out and fitted the Recaros you can see in the picture. I subsequently swapped them for a pair of 968 CS seats out of red CS, so they had red backs too
As regards the CSL, if you're ever up near Birmingham and your license isn't in tatters, feel free to come for a drive in mine. Just be warned, once you've been bitten, you'll most likely be smitten !
For track work quite a few owners have bolted rear wheels onto the front of their cars to enable them to run larger section front tyres to reduce the understeer. I believe it requires the car to run with large amounts of negative camber to make them clear the arches though.
Have a chat with the lads at Thorney (KW) or Simpson Motorsort (Intrax)for their views on improving the CSL for track use.
HTH
Have a look on this thread for rear wheels etc. Apologies for hijacking the AP / Stoptech thread too... The previous owner took them out and fitted the Recaros you can see in the picture. I subsequently swapped them for a pair of 968 CS seats out of red CS, so they had red backs too As regards the CSL, if you're ever up near Birmingham and your license isn't in tatters, feel free to come for a drive in mine. Just be warned, once you've been bitten, you'll most likely be smitten !
For track work quite a few owners have bolted rear wheels onto the front of their cars to enable them to run larger section front tyres to reduce the understeer. I believe it requires the car to run with large amounts of negative camber to make them clear the arches though.
Have a chat with the lads at Thorney (KW) or Simpson Motorsort (Intrax)for their views on improving the CSL for track use.
HTH
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Not heard of the 18" route on the CSL Nords, but IIRC the factory engineers who did the E46 M3 chassis tuning said that in their opinion the car handles best on 18"s rather than the optional 19"s . . .
No doubt the CSL benefitted from further development to tailor the 19" wheels and cups to the rest of the package.
It's a mystery to me why people attempt to engineer Porsche (or more specifically GT3 calipers) to fit a CSL a when the AP set up (both front and rear) is available off the shelf, bolts straight on and is sooooo good.
No doubt the CSL benefitted from further development to tailor the 19" wheels and cups to the rest of the package.
It's a mystery to me why people attempt to engineer Porsche (or more specifically GT3 calipers) to fit a CSL a when the AP set up (both front and rear) is available off the shelf, bolts straight on and is sooooo good.
I have had a CSL for nearly a year, the steering is far nicer than a standard M3 in weight and speed but still no real feel and after 911s it feels a bit cr4p to be honest.
The SMG is good when when you are out for a "drive" but mine drives me a bit mad in town, you don`t realise how much blending you do with a clutch pedal when approaching big bumps of sleeping policeman etc, you have to suffer the full decelleration of the sequential gear, yess you can shift 2 at a time but that doesn`t help when sometimes in a manual you would just momentarily dip the clutch in 2nd and then cruise away!
I never thought I would say this but my EVO 6 RS2 is easier to live with in London.
You do get some sense of occasion in a CSL which is nice (no more than a 993 RS though) and as everyone knows and has said the induction sound never loses it`s appeal.
My girlfriend HATES the seats because they are VERY upright but I`ve heard that they are adustable (with some work not by pulling any levers)
After parking I often turn around and have a quick look which is also nice.
They are far more "knife edge" when sideways than a regular M3 with grip coming back at the slightest feather of the throttle on "regular" tyres not Cups.
I have thought about selling recently to buy a 360 0r 550 but just not sure!
The SMG is good when when you are out for a "drive" but mine drives me a bit mad in town, you don`t realise how much blending you do with a clutch pedal when approaching big bumps of sleeping policeman etc, you have to suffer the full decelleration of the sequential gear, yess you can shift 2 at a time but that doesn`t help when sometimes in a manual you would just momentarily dip the clutch in 2nd and then cruise away!
I never thought I would say this but my EVO 6 RS2 is easier to live with in London.
You do get some sense of occasion in a CSL which is nice (no more than a 993 RS though) and as everyone knows and has said the induction sound never loses it`s appeal.
My girlfriend HATES the seats because they are VERY upright but I`ve heard that they are adustable (with some work not by pulling any levers)
After parking I often turn around and have a quick look which is also nice.
They are far more "knife edge" when sideways than a regular M3 with grip coming back at the slightest feather of the throttle on "regular" tyres not Cups.
I have thought about selling recently to buy a 360 0r 550 but just not sure!
[/quote]
For track work quite a few owners have bolted rear wheels onto the front of their cars to enable them to run larger section front tyres to reduce the understeer. I believe it requires the car to run with large amounts of negative camber to make them clear the arches though.
Have a chat with the lads at Thorney (KW) or Simpson Motorsort (Intrax)for their views on improving the CSL for track use.
If you run rears rims on the front, you need to do the turret tops to get -3.5 deg neg to gain clearance under the arch..
I run -2.5 neg on my CS, which gives a good footprint on cups, on std roll bars, track spacers help a bit too, low ride height, KW3's I have found you can dial in a pretty neutral balance once you get used to the dampers..
Make me an offer for my CS.. ready to go,..
Edited by RatBoy M3CS on Thursday 19th March 16:41
Edited by RatBoy M3CS on Thursday 19th March 16:41
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