Video Oulton Park with GT3
Discussion
Hi
Just letting you know about new video I've added link on another forum but as not everyone goes there I thought I'd share on here aswell. Some CSL on CSL action aswell as close up action with GT3RS. Not me driving, I just put vid together. Think it shows some differences between the cars.
http://www.pistonheads.tv/clip1281
wheels
Just letting you know about new video I've added link on another forum but as not everyone goes there I thought I'd share on here aswell. Some CSL on CSL action aswell as close up action with GT3RS. Not me driving, I just put vid together. Think it shows some differences between the cars.
http://www.pistonheads.tv/clip1281
wheels
Edited by 3wheels3 on Thursday 28th June 15:44
hehehe
Excellent, no doubting his speed - is he back on both feet yet? 
Stumbled on this thread today I was driving the 997 RS its amazing how much time the CSL made under braking & the speed it carried through the corners it certainly suprised me. The slicks obviously helped but it does show just how quick a CSL can be when driven well. Wouldn't mind one myself when will the V8 CSL be out?
3wheels3 said:
Hi
Yes the CSL has AP's with Pagid RS29's but I know driver is hard on the brakes as can be seen in video. I've found standard brakes with the RS29's, hoses and fluid to be quite good but not quite AP-good but then it is a fair bit cheaper!
wheels
Hi thereYes the CSL has AP's with Pagid RS29's but I know driver is hard on the brakes as can be seen in video. I've found standard brakes with the RS29's, hoses and fluid to be quite good but not quite AP-good but then it is a fair bit cheaper!
wheels
Do the RS29's last as long as stock pads? Also do they wear the disc quicker?
My car is mainly for road, might do the odd trackday so brakes more fade resistant I would like but not at the expense of pads that don't last long or wear the disc quicker.
Hi
I think they will last longer than standard pad especially on the track. For me they were/are massively better and make the brakes how they should be standard. I was quite surprised at how much better they are even in everyday use. Guess they may wear disc slightly more although I think standard disks are upto the job. I haven't yet had any real brake fade with this setup. They may squeal a little if driving Miss Daisy too much but a little beasting settles them down. I actually think it's a nice squeal and makes me giggle a bit but then I'm a motorsport man! Just follow a good bed-in and they'll be fine although may leave you wanting the 'hitting a brick wall' effect of AP's.
wheels
I think they will last longer than standard pad especially on the track. For me they were/are massively better and make the brakes how they should be standard. I was quite surprised at how much better they are even in everyday use. Guess they may wear disc slightly more although I think standard disks are upto the job. I haven't yet had any real brake fade with this setup. They may squeal a little if driving Miss Daisy too much but a little beasting settles them down. I actually think it's a nice squeal and makes me giggle a bit but then I'm a motorsport man! Just follow a good bed-in and they'll be fine although may leave you wanting the 'hitting a brick wall' effect of AP's.
wheels
From Simpson's brake info:
Upgrading BMW Brakes
There is a lot of confusion amongst owners as to how good the brakes are on their performance
BMWs and whether or not they should upgrade them. For Z4M, M3, M3 CSL and V10 M5/M6 owners
the standard brakes are really not as bad as many people make out. The issue with the BMW system
is that it uses a single pot caliper with a swinging design. The pad and piston area is actually fairly
large, and in most cases the disc diameter is also large. Where the factory braking system usually
fails down is initially in the choice of pad material. BMW use pads with excellent cold bite to work
under all conditions on the road, but which then are not very resistant to fade. Given that most
BMWs are in excess of 1300kgs in weight and qualify as heavy cars, the pads are not really up to
anything more than normal day-to-day driving. The brake hoses and fluid are also not up to the job
of spirited driving, and definitely not capable of more than one or two laps on a trackday. The discs
on the M power cars are usually good with later models having fully floating discs for better heat
management. The downside is that the discs often have cast holes which is good for water dispersal
but increases the likelihood of cracking under extreme road or trackday driving conditions. The
BMW discs are also generally quite thin in comparison to aftermarket items, further decreasing their
ability to deal with heat. This is generally only a problem for drivers who are going to do trackdays
as it is not likely that spirited road use will result in cracked or warped discs. Track use will require
better heat management, which will mean either thicker discs with separate bells, or a cooling
arrangement with air ducted to the disc.
Non-M cars tend to have cast bells, and often small single piece discs with quite small calipers.
Drivers of 3.0 Z4s and E46 330i cars are really short-changed in the braking department especially if
they are going to do trackdays.
So on the one hand we have the cheaper conversion of uprated pads, such as Performance Friction
or Ferodo DS2500 which will improve everyday road use in conjunction with uprated hoses and
fluid. For trackday use, more aggressive pads are required, such as Pagid RS29 to withstand the
high temperatures that will be reached by the pads and discs on track. This is where the BMW single
piston caliper design starts to fall apart, and you discover why BMW fit soft pads in the first place –
the reason is that the swinging caliper is not very rigid or progressive in nature, meaning that there
is no finesse in the braking. Outright stopping power with a track pad such as the Pagid is excellent,
almost as good as an AP kit, but there is no finesse. You are either flat-out braking or not braking at
all. Techniques such as trail-braking into corners are impossible. The aggressive pad solution is
ideal if all you are going to do is 1 or 2 trackdays a year.
If you want to do regular spirited road driving and trackdays, then you really should opt for an
aftermarket kit. AP Racing kits are our preferred choice, and we run these on all our cars. The AP
calipers use a conventional piston design, 6 pistons at the front and 4 at the rear. The discs are far
superior to the OEM ones in that they are 4mm thicker at least, and instead of cast holes they feature
vented vanes and grooves. They are much more resilient to heat, run much cooler and last far longer
given that they are less likely to crack. The caliper, disc and bell is a much lighter combination, with
a combined weight-saving over 4 wheels of up to 20kgs on a BMW. You can choose with the AP kit
whether to have a solid or floating disc for better heat management, though it is not essential unless
you have a very heavy car (M5s for example). There is a much better selection of pads in nearly
every compound and the braking is extremely progressive translating into much quicker lap times
overall. Discs and pads last much longer too, so the more trackdays you do then the quicker the kit
will pay for itself!
One final point is that many owners only upgrade the front brakes to APs, as it is not viewed
essential to upgrade the back. Whilst it is true that the front of the car takes the majority of the
braking effort, by only upgrading the front you will alter the brake balance of the car, and are likely to
have more front lockups, resulting in the ABS system being on more often than it used to be. If you
do not want to buy a rear kit, then you must at least upgrade the rear pads to a more aggressive
material to maintain the front-rear balance. Equally, on most BMWs you will find that the AP 4 pot
caliper is a little large for the rear, and that a softer pad will generally work better in the rear with the
APs. We like to use RS29s all round on track, but run either a Pagid RS42 at the rear or a Ferodo
DS2500 on the road.
Upgrading BMW Brakes
There is a lot of confusion amongst owners as to how good the brakes are on their performance
BMWs and whether or not they should upgrade them. For Z4M, M3, M3 CSL and V10 M5/M6 owners
the standard brakes are really not as bad as many people make out. The issue with the BMW system
is that it uses a single pot caliper with a swinging design. The pad and piston area is actually fairly
large, and in most cases the disc diameter is also large. Where the factory braking system usually
fails down is initially in the choice of pad material. BMW use pads with excellent cold bite to work
under all conditions on the road, but which then are not very resistant to fade. Given that most
BMWs are in excess of 1300kgs in weight and qualify as heavy cars, the pads are not really up to
anything more than normal day-to-day driving. The brake hoses and fluid are also not up to the job
of spirited driving, and definitely not capable of more than one or two laps on a trackday. The discs
on the M power cars are usually good with later models having fully floating discs for better heat
management. The downside is that the discs often have cast holes which is good for water dispersal
but increases the likelihood of cracking under extreme road or trackday driving conditions. The
BMW discs are also generally quite thin in comparison to aftermarket items, further decreasing their
ability to deal with heat. This is generally only a problem for drivers who are going to do trackdays
as it is not likely that spirited road use will result in cracked or warped discs. Track use will require
better heat management, which will mean either thicker discs with separate bells, or a cooling
arrangement with air ducted to the disc.
Non-M cars tend to have cast bells, and often small single piece discs with quite small calipers.
Drivers of 3.0 Z4s and E46 330i cars are really short-changed in the braking department especially if
they are going to do trackdays.
So on the one hand we have the cheaper conversion of uprated pads, such as Performance Friction
or Ferodo DS2500 which will improve everyday road use in conjunction with uprated hoses and
fluid. For trackday use, more aggressive pads are required, such as Pagid RS29 to withstand the
high temperatures that will be reached by the pads and discs on track. This is where the BMW single
piston caliper design starts to fall apart, and you discover why BMW fit soft pads in the first place –
the reason is that the swinging caliper is not very rigid or progressive in nature, meaning that there
is no finesse in the braking. Outright stopping power with a track pad such as the Pagid is excellent,
almost as good as an AP kit, but there is no finesse. You are either flat-out braking or not braking at
all. Techniques such as trail-braking into corners are impossible. The aggressive pad solution is
ideal if all you are going to do is 1 or 2 trackdays a year.
If you want to do regular spirited road driving and trackdays, then you really should opt for an
aftermarket kit. AP Racing kits are our preferred choice, and we run these on all our cars. The AP
calipers use a conventional piston design, 6 pistons at the front and 4 at the rear. The discs are far
superior to the OEM ones in that they are 4mm thicker at least, and instead of cast holes they feature
vented vanes and grooves. They are much more resilient to heat, run much cooler and last far longer
given that they are less likely to crack. The caliper, disc and bell is a much lighter combination, with
a combined weight-saving over 4 wheels of up to 20kgs on a BMW. You can choose with the AP kit
whether to have a solid or floating disc for better heat management, though it is not essential unless
you have a very heavy car (M5s for example). There is a much better selection of pads in nearly
every compound and the braking is extremely progressive translating into much quicker lap times
overall. Discs and pads last much longer too, so the more trackdays you do then the quicker the kit
will pay for itself!
One final point is that many owners only upgrade the front brakes to APs, as it is not viewed
essential to upgrade the back. Whilst it is true that the front of the car takes the majority of the
braking effort, by only upgrading the front you will alter the brake balance of the car, and are likely to
have more front lockups, resulting in the ABS system being on more often than it used to be. If you
do not want to buy a rear kit, then you must at least upgrade the rear pads to a more aggressive
material to maintain the front-rear balance. Equally, on most BMWs you will find that the AP 4 pot
caliper is a little large for the rear, and that a softer pad will generally work better in the rear with the
APs. We like to use RS29s all round on track, but run either a Pagid RS42 at the rear or a Ferodo
DS2500 on the road.
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