E60 M5 or 996 C4S
Discussion
I'm going to be in the market for a new toy in the next month or so. I had a 3.6 996 a year or so back and have also had a few beemers over the years, most recently a minted low miles E36 M3 Evo Cab through last summer. I was pretty much set that my new car was going to be a C4S but have now noticed that early E60 M5's have dropped into my budget and it has got me thinking....
I can guess the steer on this board will be to go for the M5 but I wanted to know a bit of background on the M5 as to be honest other than reading a few magazine articles when they came out in 2005 I've not paid that much attention to them.
Are there any known issues with these cars? Any major spec must haves? What sort of MPG do you get in the real world? I have a family of 3 kids under 7 and to be honest wasn't really thinking of this next car as being a kids taxi but presumably the M5 would be capable if needed to carry 3 in the back?
Also welcome any other thoughts, I've got about 5 weeks to mull this one over and I think as a minimum I'm going to need to drive one of these beasts to see how good they are!
I can guess the steer on this board will be to go for the M5 but I wanted to know a bit of background on the M5 as to be honest other than reading a few magazine articles when they came out in 2005 I've not paid that much attention to them.
Are there any known issues with these cars? Any major spec must haves? What sort of MPG do you get in the real world? I have a family of 3 kids under 7 and to be honest wasn't really thinking of this next car as being a kids taxi but presumably the M5 would be capable if needed to carry 3 in the back?
Also welcome any other thoughts, I've got about 5 weeks to mull this one over and I think as a minimum I'm going to need to drive one of these beasts to see how good they are!
Do you want a lunatic fast four door saloon that handles amazingly well for its size, but is still a four door saloon or a boring version of a great sports car?
They are very different. The M5 is in my view the more exciting car to drive. Talk about a RWD manual Porsche and that changes.
Do you need the space? If so, get the M5.
If not, get a Porsche, but please not a tiptronic C4S.
They are very different. The M5 is in my view the more exciting car to drive. Talk about a RWD manual Porsche and that changes.
Do you need the space? If so, get the M5.
If not, get a Porsche, but please not a tiptronic C4S.
Have you driven either?
996 C4S looks nice but I'm not convinced about 4wd in a 911.
M5 V10 engine is f****ng awesome. Goes like f**k and the gears and very clever. Traffic light grand prix very close - but who cares. Above 70mph in straight line I'd guess M5 wins.
Looks alone 996 wins.
Everything else M5 probably better.
996 C4S looks nice but I'm not convinced about 4wd in a 911.
M5 V10 engine is f****ng awesome. Goes like f**k and the gears and very clever. Traffic light grand prix very close - but who cares. Above 70mph in straight line I'd guess M5 wins.
Looks alone 996 wins.
Everything else M5 probably better.
M6 is a better car to drive than the M5, although not everybody likes the shape. Prices start from around £40 K.
Alpina B5's in 4.4 L spec from around the same price. Alpina has more go, more torque, better damping but is a very fast car and probably as quick everywhere except on a track as the M5. On track maybe a tad slower. In a straight line much faster and no electronics!!!
Alpina B5's in 4.4 L spec from around the same price. Alpina has more go, more torque, better damping but is a very fast car and probably as quick everywhere except on a track as the M5. On track maybe a tad slower. In a straight line much faster and no electronics!!!
Here is an interesting piece
Reviews homepage -> BMW road tests -> 2005 BMW M6
M-sechs: driving BMW's latest - Dave Jenkins
Back in the spring we managed to secure a BMW M5 for a cross Europe blast that culminated in a few laps of the Nurburgring. At the time we felt truly lucky to have experienced such a thing, perhaps a once in a lifetime chance to properly drive such a car. But then one quiet afternoon the phone rang and our friends at BMW offered up the car you see here, the new M6. As calmly as possible we thanked them, cancelled appointments and began ticking off the days. Our previous encounter with a big M car was mainly on the motorway on The Continent with very few excursions on back roads; the M6 would be subjected to a very different type of challenge. We decided to head north to the wide open windswept moor lands of Northern Scotland.
Nestled in the heavily sculpted nose of the M6 is the same V10, packing over 500bhp and with torque aplenty. On the road the effect is predictable: huge pace allied to fantastic flexibility. Six months after our trip in the M5 the M6 feels shockingly urgent. Time away from such propulsive force dulls the memory but the M6 definitely feels a little quicker than the saloon and sounds it as well: a bit of induction and exhaust fine tuning methinks. On a dry Nurburgring in May 507bhp began to feel insufficient; on the cold, wet, salted roads here in the UK in November let me tell you it feels more than enough. As you'd expect, the limiting factor is traction, on slippery roads the traction control light will still flicker in fourth gear. Whilst outright pace is compromised one can refocus concentrative powers on deploying the power smoothly and the challenge of doing so when exiting tight corner after tight corner without troubling the traction control.
Not having enough traction to utilise the lower gears is not a hindrance, as the V10's reserves of grunt are such that overtaking is more of an extension of thought than a physical exertion. Times and distances have to be recalculated to allow for the accelerative urge available and one never, but never, gets tired of the comedy value of depressing the Power button during hard acceleration and feeling the extra 25% of power kick you in the back. On the long, sweeping Loch-side roads in Scotland the novelty value of the power along with the glorious song being echoed off the valley side never wears. The same paddle shift SMG as the M5 allows the perfect interaction between gears and engine, and the perfect throttle blip on the downshift remains one of my favourite automotive treats, along with the beautiful growl that accompanies it.
Since our last meeting this V10 has won a number of accolades, including engine of the year. In all honesty it is probably better than that, one of the best of all time. Indeed when asked recently to form a list of the cars powered by the best ever engines I listed it twice - in both M5 and M6 guises. It's a triumph of technology: here is an engine that produces in excess of 100bhp per litre from a V10 that revs to 8250rpm with not a hint of vibration, whilst emitting glorious noise, and yet will hum away all but silently when you're not at play and return 25mpg at a motorway cruise. Ten years ago this would have been deemed a miracle. Now, it's here, in a relatively mass-produced car and backed up with a warranty and requires nothing but routine servicing and pump fuel. Incredible.
The interior is as opulent as you'd expect but is strangely devalued by the excellence of lesser cars' interiors now; the BMW Z4 shares some of the same switchgear for example. I'm not sure what to expect of an £80k car interior these days, as there is only so much a manufacturer can add in with the increase in price. Here there is I-drive, electric everything, a monster stereo system and more gadgets than you can shake a stick at. The Six offers acceptable accommodation for four adults; it's as roomy as the external dimensions suggest and also as comfortable, if not as voluminous as the 5-series.
The front seats are electrically adjustable with memory presets as you'd expect and offer excellent comfort as well as the support needed in a performance car of this ilk. The optional leather is great; it lifts what would otherwise be an overly dark interior and the quality, fit and finish is what you'd expect of a £5k option - I actually think it is worth the money. Throughout our test car's cabin the red leather was complemented by carbon fibre trim on the dash and doors, which is an acquired taste one must admit but I loved it as I'm a bit of a carbon fibre fetishist.
This is a happy coincidence as I can indulge myself with the M6. The entire roof is made of carbon fibre and it looks very, very cool. You can also while away a few moments looking for it elsewhere - it peaks through the grille, amongst other places, behind which it provides the support for the front spoiler. There was rumour of an M6 CSL but given the carbon fibre roof and other weight saving measures on the 'standard' car, I don't see where weight could be trimmed from easily. As it is, the mass has not only been reduced, but the centre of gravity has been lowered.
This pays dividends on the road. The M6 rolls less than the M5 and feels more alert and nimble. Without driving them back to back it is hard to be exacting in the differences but the M6 definitely feels like more of a focused sports car. It corners flat and fast with a wonderful balance and neutrality easily adjusted via throttle and communicative and well weighted helm alike. Given the bulk and size of this car, the agility and body control is incredible. The three different chassis settings allow fine tuning to the road in question with the softer setting catering for a typical British B-road, the firmer setting for A-roads and the hardest for very smooth road or track.
It's actually hard to believe how friendly the M6 is to push hard; it encourages you to do so by shrinking around you and being communicative and fun. On first acquaintance it is a little intimidating, but after a few miles and some time to adapt I found the M6 as easy to chuck about as a small hot hatch, just with much more potency. Grip levels are as extraordinary as you'd hope given the beautiful 19-inch diameter wheels shod with 255 section fronts and 285 rear tyres.
Behind the 5-spoke alloys nestle a huge set of stoppers that are faced with the task of reining in those 500 plus horses so intent on throwing the M6 at the horizon. Even after its diet the M6 is no lightweight and we found the brakes to have their hands somewhat full. I got to thinking that ceramic items may be a worthwhile option given the performance on tap. For the vast majority of the time the way the chassis and brakes contain the dynamic forces involved in driving an M6 at pace is admirable. My one real gripe, as this is a very personal one, is that I'd have preferred a broader brake pedal, or at least moved it further to the left. Given the wheel mounted shift and the ease with which one can pilot the M6 at pace I'd have liked to be able to use left foot braking without twisting in the driver's seat.
Overall, what we have here is a truly awesome car. On the one hand, a great GT in the traditional sense with mile munching capability coupled with comfort and refinement. On the other it's a great sportscar, harder edged and more raw than the BMW M5. Ultimately the value of the additional asking price will depend on the individual's specific needs. Adding the M6 to your stable (let's face it, most people who buy these will most likely already have several cars) is a question of taste. The looks still divide opinion like few others but it is indisputably individual. All will agree that the personality is a real winner and the relative scarcity and exclusivity will sway many in the favour of the M6 over the M5.
For me, the M6 faces some serious competition from Aston Martin and Porsche and I can't honestly say which one I would choose, as that decision would change from day to day. What I can say is that it would be lovely to have to make the choice in the first place.
[ Technical specifications ]
Published on Dec 22 2005
Performance:
Just plain Oh-My-God fast.
Engine & Transmission:
Engine of the year says it all really. One of the best engines of all time. We like the latest SMG gearbox too.
Ride & Handling:
Towering grip from massive rubber combines with excellent neutrality to offer huge fun.
Fuel Economy:
We averaged 17mpg over 1,600 miles with a peak of 25mpg on a motorway cruise and a low of 12mpg when having fun.
Tactility:
Steering is very good and the paddle shift is great. I'd actually like a broader brake pedal, but that's just me.
Appearance:
Mega presence and that roof is just so cool; loses a star for the rear end.
Interior:
Optional leather makes a big difference to cabin ambience. Carbon fibre trim not to all tastes though.
Safety:
Comes with the level of safety equipment you'd expect on an £80k sports car. Superb dynamic safety too.
Equipment & Value for Money:
M6 has all the gear, but so it should for £80k.
Reviews homepage -> BMW road tests -> 2005 BMW M6
M-sechs: driving BMW's latest - Dave Jenkins
Back in the spring we managed to secure a BMW M5 for a cross Europe blast that culminated in a few laps of the Nurburgring. At the time we felt truly lucky to have experienced such a thing, perhaps a once in a lifetime chance to properly drive such a car. But then one quiet afternoon the phone rang and our friends at BMW offered up the car you see here, the new M6. As calmly as possible we thanked them, cancelled appointments and began ticking off the days. Our previous encounter with a big M car was mainly on the motorway on The Continent with very few excursions on back roads; the M6 would be subjected to a very different type of challenge. We decided to head north to the wide open windswept moor lands of Northern Scotland.
Nestled in the heavily sculpted nose of the M6 is the same V10, packing over 500bhp and with torque aplenty. On the road the effect is predictable: huge pace allied to fantastic flexibility. Six months after our trip in the M5 the M6 feels shockingly urgent. Time away from such propulsive force dulls the memory but the M6 definitely feels a little quicker than the saloon and sounds it as well: a bit of induction and exhaust fine tuning methinks. On a dry Nurburgring in May 507bhp began to feel insufficient; on the cold, wet, salted roads here in the UK in November let me tell you it feels more than enough. As you'd expect, the limiting factor is traction, on slippery roads the traction control light will still flicker in fourth gear. Whilst outright pace is compromised one can refocus concentrative powers on deploying the power smoothly and the challenge of doing so when exiting tight corner after tight corner without troubling the traction control.
Not having enough traction to utilise the lower gears is not a hindrance, as the V10's reserves of grunt are such that overtaking is more of an extension of thought than a physical exertion. Times and distances have to be recalculated to allow for the accelerative urge available and one never, but never, gets tired of the comedy value of depressing the Power button during hard acceleration and feeling the extra 25% of power kick you in the back. On the long, sweeping Loch-side roads in Scotland the novelty value of the power along with the glorious song being echoed off the valley side never wears. The same paddle shift SMG as the M5 allows the perfect interaction between gears and engine, and the perfect throttle blip on the downshift remains one of my favourite automotive treats, along with the beautiful growl that accompanies it.
Since our last meeting this V10 has won a number of accolades, including engine of the year. In all honesty it is probably better than that, one of the best of all time. Indeed when asked recently to form a list of the cars powered by the best ever engines I listed it twice - in both M5 and M6 guises. It's a triumph of technology: here is an engine that produces in excess of 100bhp per litre from a V10 that revs to 8250rpm with not a hint of vibration, whilst emitting glorious noise, and yet will hum away all but silently when you're not at play and return 25mpg at a motorway cruise. Ten years ago this would have been deemed a miracle. Now, it's here, in a relatively mass-produced car and backed up with a warranty and requires nothing but routine servicing and pump fuel. Incredible.
The interior is as opulent as you'd expect but is strangely devalued by the excellence of lesser cars' interiors now; the BMW Z4 shares some of the same switchgear for example. I'm not sure what to expect of an £80k car interior these days, as there is only so much a manufacturer can add in with the increase in price. Here there is I-drive, electric everything, a monster stereo system and more gadgets than you can shake a stick at. The Six offers acceptable accommodation for four adults; it's as roomy as the external dimensions suggest and also as comfortable, if not as voluminous as the 5-series.
The front seats are electrically adjustable with memory presets as you'd expect and offer excellent comfort as well as the support needed in a performance car of this ilk. The optional leather is great; it lifts what would otherwise be an overly dark interior and the quality, fit and finish is what you'd expect of a £5k option - I actually think it is worth the money. Throughout our test car's cabin the red leather was complemented by carbon fibre trim on the dash and doors, which is an acquired taste one must admit but I loved it as I'm a bit of a carbon fibre fetishist.
This is a happy coincidence as I can indulge myself with the M6. The entire roof is made of carbon fibre and it looks very, very cool. You can also while away a few moments looking for it elsewhere - it peaks through the grille, amongst other places, behind which it provides the support for the front spoiler. There was rumour of an M6 CSL but given the carbon fibre roof and other weight saving measures on the 'standard' car, I don't see where weight could be trimmed from easily. As it is, the mass has not only been reduced, but the centre of gravity has been lowered.
This pays dividends on the road. The M6 rolls less than the M5 and feels more alert and nimble. Without driving them back to back it is hard to be exacting in the differences but the M6 definitely feels like more of a focused sports car. It corners flat and fast with a wonderful balance and neutrality easily adjusted via throttle and communicative and well weighted helm alike. Given the bulk and size of this car, the agility and body control is incredible. The three different chassis settings allow fine tuning to the road in question with the softer setting catering for a typical British B-road, the firmer setting for A-roads and the hardest for very smooth road or track.
It's actually hard to believe how friendly the M6 is to push hard; it encourages you to do so by shrinking around you and being communicative and fun. On first acquaintance it is a little intimidating, but after a few miles and some time to adapt I found the M6 as easy to chuck about as a small hot hatch, just with much more potency. Grip levels are as extraordinary as you'd hope given the beautiful 19-inch diameter wheels shod with 255 section fronts and 285 rear tyres.
Behind the 5-spoke alloys nestle a huge set of stoppers that are faced with the task of reining in those 500 plus horses so intent on throwing the M6 at the horizon. Even after its diet the M6 is no lightweight and we found the brakes to have their hands somewhat full. I got to thinking that ceramic items may be a worthwhile option given the performance on tap. For the vast majority of the time the way the chassis and brakes contain the dynamic forces involved in driving an M6 at pace is admirable. My one real gripe, as this is a very personal one, is that I'd have preferred a broader brake pedal, or at least moved it further to the left. Given the wheel mounted shift and the ease with which one can pilot the M6 at pace I'd have liked to be able to use left foot braking without twisting in the driver's seat.
Overall, what we have here is a truly awesome car. On the one hand, a great GT in the traditional sense with mile munching capability coupled with comfort and refinement. On the other it's a great sportscar, harder edged and more raw than the BMW M5. Ultimately the value of the additional asking price will depend on the individual's specific needs. Adding the M6 to your stable (let's face it, most people who buy these will most likely already have several cars) is a question of taste. The looks still divide opinion like few others but it is indisputably individual. All will agree that the personality is a real winner and the relative scarcity and exclusivity will sway many in the favour of the M6 over the M5.
For me, the M6 faces some serious competition from Aston Martin and Porsche and I can't honestly say which one I would choose, as that decision would change from day to day. What I can say is that it would be lovely to have to make the choice in the first place.
[ Technical specifications ]
Published on Dec 22 2005
Performance:
Just plain Oh-My-God fast.
Engine & Transmission:
Engine of the year says it all really. One of the best engines of all time. We like the latest SMG gearbox too.
Ride & Handling:
Towering grip from massive rubber combines with excellent neutrality to offer huge fun.
Fuel Economy:
We averaged 17mpg over 1,600 miles with a peak of 25mpg on a motorway cruise and a low of 12mpg when having fun.
Tactility:
Steering is very good and the paddle shift is great. I'd actually like a broader brake pedal, but that's just me.
Appearance:
Mega presence and that roof is just so cool; loses a star for the rear end.
Interior:
Optional leather makes a big difference to cabin ambience. Carbon fibre trim not to all tastes though.
Safety:
Comes with the level of safety equipment you'd expect on an £80k sports car. Superb dynamic safety too.
Equipment & Value for Money:
M6 has all the gear, but so it should for £80k.
Edited by belleair302 on Thursday 29th May 17:30
Zod said:
Do you want a lunatic fast four door saloon that handles amazingly well for its size, but is still a four door saloon or a boring version of a great sports car?
They are very different. The M5 is in my view the more exciting car to drive. Talk about a RWD manual Porsche and that changes.
Do you need the space? If so, get the M5.
If not, get a Porsche, but please not a tiptronic C4S.
what he said + why 4wd??? it kills all the fun, you r not going to be driving on ice ru? but even that with all the rear weight of the 911 should be no problem...They are very different. The M5 is in my view the more exciting car to drive. Talk about a RWD manual Porsche and that changes.
Do you need the space? If so, get the M5.
If not, get a Porsche, but please not a tiptronic C4S.
Thanks for all the "stuff" so far!
Regards some of the questions, I had a 996 C2 3.6 before for about a year and loved it. I did testdrive a C4 before buying the C2 and did prefer the C2's handling and feel.....but I prefer the wideboy looks of the C4S to the narrow body one like I had last time, and I want something a wee bit different to what I had last time! It would certainly be a manual defo not a tip. I can't stretch to a 997 C2S and would be looking at late 996's so for a widebody it's got to be a C4S, I think that covers the pork questions....
We have another kiddie wagon family car (a new Honda FRV diesel! - great car BTW) so the larger seating capacity of the 5 doesn't really feature that highly but in a way it would be nice to have the option of using it when out with the full clan every now and again, an option I wouldn't have with the pork. Someone suggested an M6 - yup I love them and were it not for the circa 10K differential between them and the M5 for early used ones then I would certainly consider one of them. I haven't driven an E60 M5 yet but having had a bit of a think now I certainly will before deciding where to spend my pennies. I quite like the idea of the tech and gadgets in the M5 also......oh and the 500+BHP! I've had a few beemers over the years including a V8 E39 sport and I liked it a lot.
I've got a few weeks to mull this one before I will be going "shopping"...happy days!
Regards some of the questions, I had a 996 C2 3.6 before for about a year and loved it. I did testdrive a C4 before buying the C2 and did prefer the C2's handling and feel.....but I prefer the wideboy looks of the C4S to the narrow body one like I had last time, and I want something a wee bit different to what I had last time! It would certainly be a manual defo not a tip. I can't stretch to a 997 C2S and would be looking at late 996's so for a widebody it's got to be a C4S, I think that covers the pork questions....
We have another kiddie wagon family car (a new Honda FRV diesel! - great car BTW) so the larger seating capacity of the 5 doesn't really feature that highly but in a way it would be nice to have the option of using it when out with the full clan every now and again, an option I wouldn't have with the pork. Someone suggested an M6 - yup I love them and were it not for the circa 10K differential between them and the M5 for early used ones then I would certainly consider one of them. I haven't driven an E60 M5 yet but having had a bit of a think now I certainly will before deciding where to spend my pennies. I quite like the idea of the tech and gadgets in the M5 also......oh and the 500+BHP! I've had a few beemers over the years including a V8 E39 sport and I liked it a lot.
I've got a few weeks to mull this one before I will be going "shopping"...happy days!
Have you considered a manual E92 M3???
the car is best described as a manual M5/M6
I too looked at the C4s but the car didn't feel as special as it looked. The interior is beginning to looked dated. Bearing in mind most are 40K. Although pace isn't everything the C4s felt alot slower than my M3.
Only the size and gearbox but me off from looking at the bigger M5/M6.
the car is best described as a manual M5/M6
I too looked at the C4s but the car didn't feel as special as it looked. The interior is beginning to looked dated. Bearing in mind most are 40K. Although pace isn't everything the C4s felt alot slower than my M3.
Only the size and gearbox but me off from looking at the bigger M5/M6.
Steve, had a C4S which I enjoyed but like others prefer the 2wd. Have you considered a 997 non 'S', a bit cheaper lighter and virtually as fast as the 'S'.
Another decent toy would be an SLK 55 (auto only though), I had a 350 which was great fun.
Having said all that I'm sure an M5 is something pretty special and well worth a test drive.
Good luck.
Another decent toy would be an SLK 55 (auto only though), I had a 350 which was great fun.
Having said all that I'm sure an M5 is something pretty special and well worth a test drive.
Good luck.
Sandy59 said:
Steve, had a C4S which I enjoyed but like others prefer the 2wd. Have you considered a 997 non 'S', a bit cheaper lighter and virtually as fast as the 'S'.
Another decent toy would be an SLK 55 (auto only though), I had a 350 which was great fun.
Having said all that I'm sure an M5 is something pretty special and well worth a test drive.
Good luck.
Good idea on the 997 C2 non 'S'. I had a C2S and they are very good. The non S is 'only' a 3.6 which is the same engine you get in the 996 C4S so still plenty of oomph there to get you going. 997 has a very nice cabin and the balance and turn in is SO much better than the 996. Definitely worth a serious look.Another decent toy would be an SLK 55 (auto only though), I had a 350 which was great fun.
Having said all that I'm sure an M5 is something pretty special and well worth a test drive.
Good luck.
Funny you should mention that. I did find myself perusing 996 turbo ads, they now seem to be entering my price range. For info I'm looking to spend high 30's so I am looking at faily early TT territory. They way things are just now another 6 weeks depreciation will help my cause!
I still feel like the E60 M5 is an itch I've got to scratch but Mrs996 reckons if I buy anything other than another pork I'll just end up taking a depreciation hit and THEN end up back in porkland.....
I still feel like the E60 M5 is an itch I've got to scratch but Mrs996 reckons if I buy anything other than another pork I'll just end up taking a depreciation hit and THEN end up back in porkland.....
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