3.0 M3 fast road/track project
Discussion
Hello.
I have been considering building a fast road and occaisional track e36 3.0 M3 for some time and I am looking for some feedback on my plans so far.
I thought I would go for a 3.0 litre instead of a 3.2 evo because they are supposed to have fewer vanos issues (although I know this is over-hyped and to a certain degree avoided by regular vanos maintenance) and generally be less expensive to run. I also understand they are a little lighter (which would make them more suitable for the track). I realise the Evo is in many ways a better car. With this in mind the steering will need changing to a quicker rack and many parts will need upgrading.
My plans involve buying a base car for about £5000 with vadar leather. I don't know whether to go for low mileage or save some money for mods and get a higher mileage example?
I will then sell the vadar leather for about £500-700 to save some weight and free up some money for mods. Then I will buy some bucket seats and seat frames for about £400 (sportseats4u.com). I will also get some e36 coupe door cards from a scrappy. I will then strip out any uneccesary interior bits but compromise weight saving with some level of comfort.
For the brakes I thought I would go for some uprated fast road pads and discs with braided hoses and better fluid. Will this be sufficient bearing in mind the car will be a little lighter?
Chassis upgrades will include uprated ARB's and strut braces. Are these necessary?
The only mod to the engine will be a Dave F induction kit. Then maybe an exhaust.
The suspension will be uprated. Don't laugh, but there is a cheapy set of springs and dampers on ebay for £200. I imagine these are shite though so I will budget on spending more like £600-700.
Finally I will get the suspension fully aligned.
I would then hope to have a fast road car with the option of taking it to occaisional track days.
I'm looking for feedback on my plans and advice on different modifications outlined above.
One last thing. Does anyone have any sort of ball park figure as to how much weight would be saved by ditching the vadar leather and uneccesary interior trim. i hear the vadar seats weigh quite a bit alone.
Many thanks in advance, Matt.
I have been considering building a fast road and occaisional track e36 3.0 M3 for some time and I am looking for some feedback on my plans so far.
I thought I would go for a 3.0 litre instead of a 3.2 evo because they are supposed to have fewer vanos issues (although I know this is over-hyped and to a certain degree avoided by regular vanos maintenance) and generally be less expensive to run. I also understand they are a little lighter (which would make them more suitable for the track). I realise the Evo is in many ways a better car. With this in mind the steering will need changing to a quicker rack and many parts will need upgrading.
My plans involve buying a base car for about £5000 with vadar leather. I don't know whether to go for low mileage or save some money for mods and get a higher mileage example?
I will then sell the vadar leather for about £500-700 to save some weight and free up some money for mods. Then I will buy some bucket seats and seat frames for about £400 (sportseats4u.com). I will also get some e36 coupe door cards from a scrappy. I will then strip out any uneccesary interior bits but compromise weight saving with some level of comfort.
For the brakes I thought I would go for some uprated fast road pads and discs with braided hoses and better fluid. Will this be sufficient bearing in mind the car will be a little lighter?
Chassis upgrades will include uprated ARB's and strut braces. Are these necessary?
The only mod to the engine will be a Dave F induction kit. Then maybe an exhaust.
The suspension will be uprated. Don't laugh, but there is a cheapy set of springs and dampers on ebay for £200. I imagine these are shite though so I will budget on spending more like £600-700.
Finally I will get the suspension fully aligned.
I would then hope to have a fast road car with the option of taking it to occaisional track days.
I'm looking for feedback on my plans and advice on different modifications outlined above.
One last thing. Does anyone have any sort of ball park figure as to how much weight would be saved by ditching the vadar leather and uneccesary interior trim. i hear the vadar seats weigh quite a bit alone.
Many thanks in advance, Matt.
Matt have you seen the Evo E36 M3 owned by Jethro? He has created an interesting toy and the articles are well worth reading to give you a variety of answers to your questions. Issues 82-85 are the ones to look for, ie June - Oct 2005. The weight loss of the interior should be close to 80kgs. Jethros car budget was around £15 K and that included a car at around £5.2 which with certain improvements rose to £7.7 K and some serious brake hardwear costing £2.6K (AP). Good luck!!
The best bit of advice I can give you is buy the best suspension you can afford, there is so much crap about, if it's for track use then buy track specific shocks and springs, strip as much as you can and leave the engine standard and you'll have a fast car, lap times come from experience and having a well set up car, not from power
belleair302 said:
Matt have you seen the Evo E36 M3 owned by Jethro? He has created an interesting toy and the articles are well worth reading to give you a variety of answers to your questions. Issues 82-85 are the ones to look for, ie June - Oct 2005. The weight loss of the interior should be close to 80kgs. Jethros car budget was around £15 K and that included a car at around £5.2 which with certain improvements rose to £7.7 K and some serious brake hardwear costing £2.6K (AP). Good luck!!
Funny you should say that. His 'project 8 mins' car was my inspiration. However, I don't have as much money to spend and I want to use the car for a bit of commuting also.I've heard something about using 840i or 850ci brembo calipers to upgrade the brakes. Someone did this on a e36 evo recently. Does anyone know if these calipers bolt straight on to a 3.0 M3?
Cheers, Matt
Matt how much do you want to spend on 'improvements' and what is the overall goal? A track based road car, a road based track car, something quick and subtle 'Q' car or an stripped out cafe racer? The most important areas to look at beyond weight are suspension, wheels and tyres, brakes (dont use any BMW brakes however look at kits from Movit.de or speak to CA Automotive or one of the track specialists), gearbox, exhaust and airfilter / ecu upgrades.
belleair302 said:
Matt how much do you want to spend on 'improvements' and what is the overall goal? A track based road car, a road based track car, something quick and subtle 'Q' car or an stripped out cafe racer? The most important areas to look at beyond weight are suspension, wheels and tyres, brakes (dont use any BMW brakes however look at kits from Movit.de or speak to CA Automotive or one of the track specialists), gearbox, exhaust and airfilter / ecu upgrades.
Hi. I'm looking to have a road biased car that can occaisionally be used on track.I'm moving to South Wales and intend to use the car for blasts up to the Brecon Beacons and the odd day at Pembrey or Llandow. I just want to save a bit of weight as I think close to 1500kg's is a bit heavy for use on track. I'm looking to spend less than £3k on 'improvements' although I will claw some money back for the sale of the vader interior.
So it will be a budget build but i should end up with a near 300bhp, RWD focused drivers car for £7-8k.
For a fast road/track car the main areas are brakes, tyres and suspenspion. For track use add instruction to the list.
As far as brakes are concerned save your money and get some decent pads (Mintex or Pagid), braided hoses and fluid. AP brakes etc are superb but you can get a very good set up by a simple upgrade of pads etc.
Suspension wise the x brace to the front and a good suspension kit works wonders and is probably as much as you need. I have an Intrax Kit, which i previously had on a CSL, and can't recommend them enough. You can buy direct from them. Not cheap but worth it in my view
As far as`tyres are concerned 888, A048 or Kumho track tyres are good options if you plan to do lts of track days.
Removing weight obviously helps. How much depends on how far you want to go. Mine is stripped but left the carpet in to reduce the sound slightly when driving to the track.
Hope this helps
As far as brakes are concerned save your money and get some decent pads (Mintex or Pagid), braided hoses and fluid. AP brakes etc are superb but you can get a very good set up by a simple upgrade of pads etc.
Suspension wise the x brace to the front and a good suspension kit works wonders and is probably as much as you need. I have an Intrax Kit, which i previously had on a CSL, and can't recommend them enough. You can buy direct from them. Not cheap but worth it in my view
As far as`tyres are concerned 888, A048 or Kumho track tyres are good options if you plan to do lts of track days.
Removing weight obviously helps. How much depends on how far you want to go. Mine is stripped but left the carpet in to reduce the sound slightly when driving to the track.
Hope this helps
mat59 said:
I've heard something about using 840i or 850ci brembo calipers to upgrade the brakes. Someone did this on a e36 evo recently. Does anyone know if these calipers bolt straight on to a 3.0 M3?
Cheers, Matt
According to one of the currently-in-Smiths BMW mags they're a straight swap - it's the mag with an Estoril Blue M3 on the cover.Cheers, Matt
Moton are highly regarded and up there with the best. At the top level you are easily 3k upwards. Probably only worth while if you are racing. I have Intrax on my car and very pleased with them. Have enough adjsutability for track day use without going overboard and not too bad on the road either. They cost about 2k direct from Intrax so not cheap but highly regarded by many tuners (particularly for M cars)
£1000 will probably get you Bilstein or KW. No experience of either of them. KW are very popular in Germany. Thorney Motorsport seem to big a big fan of them too.
£1000 will probably get you Bilstein or KW. No experience of either of them. KW are very popular in Germany. Thorney Motorsport seem to big a big fan of them too.
^^^ that is YAT's car of e36 coupe. it is a beautiful example of a tuned m3, and one of the nicest e36 evo's in the country. if you want to see a perfect example of a track m3 look at the journals section for members pooky,m3psm, and JAppa...
people say the 3.0 is better suited to track work, and that its a stronger engine, maybe so, but the evo had steering and suspension revisions aswell as uprated brakes (in comparison to the 3.0), it may well cost you more to do these revisions than actually buying an evo to begin with.
for fast rd use: uprated pads, fluid and steel hoses will make the world of difference, and you'll find that the brakes are all you need for 90% of the time. still you may find this setup is not good for tracks which are hard on the brakes, inwhich case a propper 4 pot caliper upgrade is what you should go for (tho i dont believe the calipers will go straight on a 3.0-pls check that) as mentioned above Yat has done this upgrade and speaks highly of it. you could try move-it to or stop tech from the states.
as taffy says, you wont be able to get much more bhp out of the car maybe another 30 hp max, but that will cost the best part of a couple of grand in mods and setting up (remap etc). much more worth while doing the weight reduction mods and then spending money on driving instruction of some sort.
just my 2p worth..
cheers
Jam
people say the 3.0 is better suited to track work, and that its a stronger engine, maybe so, but the evo had steering and suspension revisions aswell as uprated brakes (in comparison to the 3.0), it may well cost you more to do these revisions than actually buying an evo to begin with.
for fast rd use: uprated pads, fluid and steel hoses will make the world of difference, and you'll find that the brakes are all you need for 90% of the time. still you may find this setup is not good for tracks which are hard on the brakes, inwhich case a propper 4 pot caliper upgrade is what you should go for (tho i dont believe the calipers will go straight on a 3.0-pls check that) as mentioned above Yat has done this upgrade and speaks highly of it. you could try move-it to or stop tech from the states.
as taffy says, you wont be able to get much more bhp out of the car maybe another 30 hp max, but that will cost the best part of a couple of grand in mods and setting up (remap etc). much more worth while doing the weight reduction mods and then spending money on driving instruction of some sort.
just my 2p worth..
cheers
Jam
Matt, have a look at our build here: http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
We've started with a 325 which has allowed us to spend a bit more on safety, stopping and cornering. We'll drop an M3 engine in next year after doing a track day "season". Although ours is purely a track day car and wont be used on the road, it should give you some idea of what's involved.
Also checkout http://www.zonemotorsport.co.uk/forum/ if you haven't done so already. There is loads of helpful people on there and the site is track focused. It's just been re-launched after problems with the server so is a little quiet at the moment.
Also check out http://www.bmw-rallying.co.uk/forum/ for second hand kit.
Cheers, Ben
We've started with a 325 which has allowed us to spend a bit more on safety, stopping and cornering. We'll drop an M3 engine in next year after doing a track day "season". Although ours is purely a track day car and wont be used on the road, it should give you some idea of what's involved.
Also checkout http://www.zonemotorsport.co.uk/forum/ if you haven't done so already. There is loads of helpful people on there and the site is track focused. It's just been re-launched after problems with the server so is a little quiet at the moment.
Also check out http://www.bmw-rallying.co.uk/forum/ for second hand kit.
Cheers, Ben
I think you are going to have to do something more than a pad upgrade on the brakes.
If you are on a limited budget, go for the Evo disk upgrade as I know a good mate who fitted them with Pagid RS14's to a friends M3 recently and said it made no end of difference to stopping power. I believe Evo disks can be bought cheaply from GSF, so it's an effective, low cost upgrade.
If you have a bit more, get 8 series calipers which do bolt straight on, but are in demand, so salvager's charge more than you'd thing (circa £150, but I was quote £110 for one!) and you really need to change the disk to E46 diesel ones as the std disks are too small to sweep the pad.
Next more expensive is Hispek, Godspeed or a similar outfit.
Finally, if you have more money than sense, by a new set of AP's for around two grand and then faint when you need to replace the disks and pads!
Re suspension, also look at poly bushes and uprated ARB's. Get the Xbrace from a scrapyard for around 50 quid.
Jez
If you are on a limited budget, go for the Evo disk upgrade as I know a good mate who fitted them with Pagid RS14's to a friends M3 recently and said it made no end of difference to stopping power. I believe Evo disks can be bought cheaply from GSF, so it's an effective, low cost upgrade.
If you have a bit more, get 8 series calipers which do bolt straight on, but are in demand, so salvager's charge more than you'd thing (circa £150, but I was quote £110 for one!) and you really need to change the disk to E46 diesel ones as the std disks are too small to sweep the pad.
Next more expensive is Hispek, Godspeed or a similar outfit.
Finally, if you have more money than sense, by a new set of AP's for around two grand and then faint when you need to replace the disks and pads!
Re suspension, also look at poly bushes and uprated ARB's. Get the Xbrace from a scrapyard for around 50 quid.
Jez
Thanks for the advice so far.
I think I will go for the Evo disk upgrade with fast raod pads, better brake fluid and braided brake hoses. Do evo disks bolt staright on to a 3.0 m3? What size are they compared to standard 3.0 m3 disks?
The suspension will probably be uprated dampers and springs as these are cheaper than coilovers and probably more road biased.
I intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
I think I will go for the Evo disk upgrade with fast raod pads, better brake fluid and braided brake hoses. Do evo disks bolt staright on to a 3.0 m3? What size are they compared to standard 3.0 m3 disks?
The suspension will probably be uprated dampers and springs as these are cheaper than coilovers and probably more road biased.
I intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
just checked here http://bmwfans.info/ there no difference in size but there do have different part number so they must be something in it 
mat59 said:
Thanks for the advice so far.
I intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
you could do must on the service yourself, on top of a normal car service you need to change the zanos filter and bolts, a good read -> http://mukerji.co.uk/ and also there are the valve Clarence's to do I could do this myself but would be a right fe#k on so I ask my local indy and they said it world be about £130 and they'd need it over night as it need to be done when the engines couldI intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
Cliffv8 said:
mat59 said:
Thanks for the advice so far.
I intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
you could do must on the service yourself, on top of a normal car service you need to change the zanos filter and bolts, a good read -> http://mukerji.co.uk/ and also there are the valve Clarence's to do I could do this myself but would be a right fe#k on so I ask my local indy and they said it world be about £130 and they'd need it over night as it need to be done when the engines couldI intend to do most of the work myself. This will include basic servicing if possible. Does anyone know what is involved in a inspection one and two services that would be more tricky to tackle for a competent home mechanic?
Thanks, Matt
So it looks like I will be able to run a 3.0 m3 on a reasonable budget hopefully. Close to 300 rear wheel BHP for around £5000-6000. Keep it quiet but i think 3.0 M3's are one of the bargains of the moment. Just to think I was going to spend £13k on a 350Z. Another great car but I would rather save the money for track days. I would imagine the difference in the performance of the two cars is minimal. The M would would probably have the edge with some choice brake, suspension and breathing improvements.
I'd recommend www.geoffsteelracing.co.uk they run a good few E36 M3's in various championships and will have invaluable advice on getting it right first time. Speak to Will Fields.
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