M3 vs M3 CS vs M3CSL

[fastfreddy]

I've been considering switching to a 350Z but there's been this thought in the back of my mind that I should consider a E46 M3 instead.
I had an M3 Evo back in '98 and various 3-series saloons and coupes over the years and they have always been reliable and fun.
So the question is, who has had a chance to compare the M3 against the CS and CSL versions and how do they compare?
If I'm honest, I prefer a manual gaearbox and a few creature comforts so the CS seems to be a good compromise.
I'd be looking at spending around £20k-£25k, which probably rules out the CSL anyway.
What do you lot think?

[m12_nathan]

I thought the 350Z was horrible, soft, over light steering, just a bit of a barge when I drove one on track, not driven one on the road but would take an m3 over it every time. Go and test drive one and see what you think, if you can afford a CS over the standard one then do it, the steering rack makes a big difference.

[belleair302]

Buy am M3 and spend some money improving the performance, brakes and suspension. The CS is a CSL clone without the best bits and the CSL is a bit too hard core for day to day use. Otherwise look out for a decent Alpina !!

[Zod]

The CSL is fine for daily use, unless you are a cissy.

Buy a CSL. It's much, much better than the normal M3 or the CS (which is hardly different from the normal M3).

[Lordsmut]

Zod said:

The CSL is fine for daily use, unless you are a cissy.

Buy a CSL. It's much, much better than the normal M3 or the CS (which is hardly different from the normal M3).

Good luck bagging one in that budget though

[C5L]

Well it depends what do you want the M3 for ? ?

Do want a daily driver, a track car, a quick road car or a pose mobile ? ?

The CSL is good if you like the thrill of pure driving, ie both hands must remain on the steering if you want to stay out of ditches ! !
Also the noise a CSL makes is one automotive nirvana, that low down growl of air hitting the big off C/F box and that shriek from the engine ! Also the SMG box on the CSL is fabulous when attacking a good road. Also everytime you sit inside it , if feels special, like your in a race car. Reversing around tight corners is a bit hairy as having a bit too much - camber does affect your turning circle.

However the CSL does have a rough ride at slow speeds and the box is a bit clunky in town with sport on. Also on cups they do not last long on the roads, be lucky to get 4000/5000 and on track a set can be easily killed of in a half a day session let alone a full day. Also for me i find it very hard to control myself from putting sport on and hearing the intake growl from 2500 to 4000rpm everywhere i go(obviously where permitted the shift lights will be working !!

When your not in the mood however it really can be hell + also my CSL hates town driving, i've been through 3 clutch packs and 2 gearboxes and i am adamant that its the town driving , especially pulling out of junctions and driving like a granny that the car does not like ! ! LOL

The CS is a much better comprimise for people i guess who want the steering wheel and alloys and the same steering rack as a CSL ? ? ? ( why not just buy them ! ) how it can have the same steering feel as a CSL i don't know as it isn't any lighteR ? drove a CS felt like a normal M3, only thing i could say was the steering wheel felt good snd Interlagos Blue looks amazing, box felt a bit slower/clunkier than the CSL's SMG II !! brakes felt the same as a stock M3.

Normal M3, well its a good bargain nowadays, and i wouldn't hesitate buying one over a 350z.

My friend has a Gt4 350z and do not get me wrong lovely car, but he seems to like the yellow colour more than the way it drives , get what im saying ?

I wouldn't advise a CS , i would just get a stock M3 and buy the alcantara steering wheel, upgrade the braking system with, good brake fluid, SS hoses, Uprated pads and the CSL front disk and brake carrier. change all the bushes all round ( so it will feel like a new car ) and some CSL wheels for a nicer look basically. If you want to lighten the car you can change seats, change body parts for C/F items, hell even fit a C/F roof and strip it.

good luck with whatever you decide.

The E46 M3 is a lovely car.

[fastfreddy]

Thanks for moving the thread to the M forum! A d'oh moment on my part there

What you've said makes a lot of sense. The car would be put to a variety of uses - motorway cruiser, a bit of town driving (not a lot these days) and it would be rude not to take it on track every now and then

As age creeps up on me I do find there are days when I just want to cruise from A to B in relative comfort and without too much engine/road noise getting in the way. The CSL is out of my price range anyway, so I suppose I was really trying to find out if the CS is anywhere near the CSL in terms of feel, but it seems more of a marketing exercise from what I'm reading.

So, looking at a standard manual M3 then, where are the best sources for parts to upgrade the brakes (Eurocarparts, GSF?), suspension (bushes, anything else?) and anything to get it closer to CSL performance without spending a fortune? I'm happy to do the work myself in terms of fitting parts. I'd probably be interested in getting the geometry tweaked if there is a specialist out there you'd recommend for such work.

[Schnell]

fastfreddy said:

Thanks for moving the thread to the M forum! A d'oh moment on my part there

What you've said makes a lot of sense. The car would be put to a variety of uses - motorway cruiser, a bit of town driving (not a lot these days) and it would be rude not to take it on track every now and then

As age creeps up on me I do find there are days when I just want to cruise from A to B in relative comfort and without too much engine/road noise getting in the way. The CSL is out of my price range anyway, so I suppose I was really trying to find out if the CS is anywhere near the CSL in terms of feel, but it seems more of a marketing exercise from what I'm reading.

So, looking at a standard manual M3 then, where are the best sources for parts to upgrade the brakes (Eurocarparts, GSF?), suspension (bushes, anything else?) and anything to get it closer to CSL performance without spending a fortune? I'm happy to do the work myself in terms of fitting parts. I'd probably be interested in getting the geometry tweaked if there is a specialist out there you'd recommend for such work.

Munich legends are the best place to go RE tuning. They really really know their stuff and will give you the best advise as to what to.

[Zod]

I think that if you have never driven a CSL, the CS will feel better than the normal M3, but if you are used to the CSL, the CS is difficult to distinguish from the normal M3.

[belleair302]

For improvements I would look at DMS Automotive to help give you some more Torque and improve BHP, Eibach for suspension / springs, exhausts you can find many different options from Larini and Milltek just for starters!! Brakes have a look at AP or Mov'It (new but great bits of kit for fast road / track work) and then do some research on the M3 forums etc to see who likes what.

[C5L]

I think the manual M3 is definatly the way to go.

However give the SMG a try no harm..., i remember the 1st time i tried a CSL, i absolutly loathed the gearbox ( i was driving a e36 Evo at the time and a Civic Type R ).

I felt completly robbed of control, it felt like i was just tapping a button and had no control over the clutch.

However i bought one and after a month of driving SMG, i absolulty loved it ! ! Its a manual gearbox with a robotic arm and clutch. You need finnesse with the throttle and timing and then SMG makes sense, the sheer savagery of the box in full upshifts is a delight! !

For parts i advise you got either Thorney Motorsport or CA automotive + keep a look out on M3 orientated forums, ie BM3W,evotechnik for used parts, in the For Sale sections, even Ebay !.

The good thing about CSL owners is that they seem to need to modify everything, so that means that stock CSL parts can be had for bargains ! !

things like the standard suspension(set it up with correct GEO),stock M3 CSL discs and carriers, CSL backbox (LTW LOL ROFL my arse!).

If you look carefully you might be able to get a CSL steering wheel for cheap.

I doubt you would need a BBK if you only doing a handful of trackdays, as i said SS brake lines good fluid and CSL brake carries and disks would be more than upto the job. BBK are overkill unless you track it atleast once a month. Next i would get the bushes done, powerflex seem good but some people prefer OEM bushs on the rear anyway (softer) with RTAB limiter movement kits.

Also don't forget good tyres make night and day in the handling.

to get the car lighter i would suggest a lighter battery, CSL style bootlid (exspensive and fitment is a bitch unless OEM), adjustable racing seats, C/F roof(very exspensive, remove sound deading, lighter wheels and maybe suspension upgrade.

Performance wise i would advice a nice panel filter, racing cats and centre cross pipe and a remap of Thorney to get a smoother power delivery for better driveability. Alot of tuners chat basically shit about their gains to the S54 so be sceptical.

You could also go mad and get cams, full exhaust, flywheels, pulleys, clutches ETC but all Big $£££££

hope that helps ! !

DMS and Munich are okay but i doubt they know the M3 like Thorney Motorsport, Simpson Motorsport or CA Automotive.

I recommend Thorney purely for the fact he will give you the truth and never be a salesman, hes a enthusiast through and through.

personally drive the car stock for atleast a month so you know where you stand with the car.

goodluck !

regards,
Raj

Edited by C5L on Thursday 11th October 15:15

Edited by C5L on Thursday 11th October 15:17

[DoctorD]

Look for a good CS, but don't pay an inordinate premium over the regular M3 (just enough to cover some of the key options it has fitted as standard). I owned an M3 for 3 years and have owned a CSL for 4 years, the CS I drove again recently on the test we published in EVO (Greatest M-cars). The CS' main advantage over the M3 is in the steering rack (which is 'very' well worth having) and this makes it flow notably better than a regular M3 across the roads.

The CSL is the real icon of the range but more hardcore than the CS. Imagine the difference between walking around in a pair of cross-trainers (i.e. CS) as opposed to walking around in thin track shoes (i.e. CSL).

At the budget you are looking for, there should be a nice CS out there, but budget to replace the alcantara steering wheel since most owners don't take good care of them.

[_daveR]

DoctorD said:

Look for a good CS, but don't pay an inordinate premium over the regular M3 (just enough to cover some of the key options it has fitted as standard).

But CS's (well the few I can find for sale) seem to be more around CSL money than M3 money?

[fastfreddy]

I presume getting the rack upgraded on the standard M3 is not small change? Probably not a job I'd want to tackle myself

[simple simon]

I have had an e46 m3 and now have a csl.
I would say to any one the standard m3 is still a very good and rewarding car.
Yes the csl would finish ahead in a race but if we are all hones how many of us could extract the difference (like tiff dose on the you tube video) to 2 seconds per lap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

I now drive my csl every day, although I don’t feel to much of a sissy , I do tend to find my self jumping in to my wife’s car ( boring Lexus rx300 )to pop to the shops, or especially when my wife wants to come out with me.

So what i am trying to say if you are even thinking of a good ride / comfort so to speak it’s the m3 all the way .

[Zod]

simple simon said:

I have had an e46 m3 and now have a csl.
I would say to any one the standard m3 is still a very good and rewarding car.
Yes the csl would finish ahead in a race but if we are all hones how many of us could extract the difference (like tiff dose on the you tube video) to 2 seconds per lap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

I now drive my csl every day, although I don’t feel to much of a sissy , I do tend to find my self jumping in to my wife’s car ( boring Lexus rx300 )to pop to the shops, or especially when my wife wants to come out with me.

So what i am trying to say if you are even thinking of a good ride / comfort so to speak it’s the m3 all the way .

I don't deny that the ordinary M3 is a great car and the CS is an improvement on it, but the CSL is intoxicating. For me, once I'd owned a CSL and driven it every day, I could never be satisfied with a normal E46.

[C5L]

True DoctorD the CS may flow better, but is it worth the price difference between a stock M3, ie you can get a good E46 for 18K but a CS will atleast cost you 26K.

Steering ratio of a M3 CS/CSL is – 14.5:1 vs. 15.4:1. for the normal M3

the CS/CSL steering gear ratio is higher than that of a stock M3 which acts to "speed-up" the steering. This means that the steering is very responsive and the turning radius of the car is greater. More wheel lock can also make the car more prone to over-correcting by the driver. This is more dangerous at higher speeds.

The normal M3 steering gear ratio is lower which acts to "slow-down" the steering. The turning radius of the car is decreased and the steering is not as responsive. At the higher speeds of the larger tracks and with large sweeping turns less wheel lock is desirable as there is less chance of over-correction by the driver and the steering is more forgiving.

The steering ratio is the ratio of how far you turn the steering wheel to how far the wheels turn. For instance, if one complete revolution (360 degrees) of the steering wheel results in the wheels of the car turning 20 degrees, then the steering ratio is 360 divided by 20, or 18:1. A higher ratio means that you have to turn the steering wheel more to get the wheels to turn a given distance. However, less effort is required because of the higher gear ratio.

So, using a Standard M3 with 15.4:1 ratio versus CSL 14.5:1 ratio...

360/X=15.4.... 360/X=14.5

Thus..one 360 degree turn of the steering wheel for the standard M3 turns the wheel 23.38 degrees and 24.83 degrees for the CSL gear ratio...

So is it worth it?

so, is this 1.45 degree difference of a more flowing nature worth the price of CS compared to a stock M3 ? ?

Just put a bit more effort when turning ! !

You could change the steering rack, but for the cost of a 1k , i wouldn't. I couldn't feel the change driving a CS from a normal M3 when i drove one but i must have not been paying attention as i was dreaming of my CSL.

True a CS has alcantara steering wheel(from £250 -£650 to buy new) M track mode ( but you lose all the steering wheel multi functions + most people drive withoust DSC/TC ), CSL alloys (£1000), CSL brakes and pads (used CSL items go for cheap), aluminium trim and interlagos blue paint( if you want).

I would personally get a stock M3 and make it how you want it, with the money you saved from not buying a CS.

I personally feel there is no point ina CS, you might aswell go the whole hog for a much much much better car , the CSL.

Btw DoctorD i'd like to thank you for your buying guide info, i bought my CSL using that infomation over 2 years ago so thank you Its been 2 years of motoring nirvana.

regards,

Raj

Edited by C5L on Friday 12th October 14:05

Edited by C5L on Friday 12th October 14:14

[DoctorD]

C5L said:

True a CS has alcantara steering wheel(from £250 -£650 to buy new) M track mode ( but you lose all the steering wheel multi functions + most people drive withoust DSC/TC ), CSL alloys (£1000), CSL brakes and pads (used CSL items go for cheap), aluminium trim and interlagos blue paint( if you want).

Thanks Raj. You raise another important attribute in my mind, namely M-track, which is a far less intrusive DSC mode than is available in the M3. That plus the steering are other good reasons to choose the CS. For anyone still thinking of whether a CSL would suit instead of a CS, I was reminded recenly how much quicker the SMG changes are in a CSL compared to the CS.

Anyway, the best way to think of the CS is as a final evolution of the M3, so yes it will be more expensive than an older M3, but I would not pay much more over an equivalent age/mileage M3. IIRC the CS was only produced for just over 12 months, so if I was in the market for a young M3, then I would definitely choose a CS rather than try and take an equivalent age M3 and improve it.

[PPPPPP]

Zod said:

simple simon said:

I have had an e46 m3 and now have a csl.
I would say to any one the standard m3 is still a very good and rewarding car.
Yes the csl would finish ahead in a race but if we are all hones how many of us could extract the difference (like tiff dose on the you tube video) to 2 seconds per lap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

I now drive my csl every day, although I don’t feel to much of a sissy , I do tend to find my self jumping in to my wife’s car ( boring Lexus rx300 )to pop to the shops, or especially when my wife wants to come out with me.

So what i am trying to say if you are even thinking of a good ride / comfort so to speak it’s the m3 all the way .

I don't deny that the ordinary M3 is a great car and the CS is an improvement on it, but the CSL is intoxicating. For me, once I'd owned a CSL and driven it every day, I could never be satisfied with a normal E46.

So perhaps the sensible thing to do is to buy a CSL, put in adjustable recaro seats & a sat Nav system. Keep the original seats in case you ever want to sell the car.

[Zod]

PPPPPP said:

Zod said:

simple simon said:

I have had an e46 m3 and now have a csl.
I would say to any one the standard m3 is still a very good and rewarding car.
Yes the csl would finish ahead in a race but if we are all hones how many of us could extract the difference (like tiff dose on the you tube video) to 2 seconds per lap!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

I now drive my csl every day, although I don’t feel to much of a sissy , I do tend to find my self jumping in to my wife’s car ( boring Lexus rx300 )to pop to the shops, or especially when my wife wants to come out with me.

So what i am trying to say if you are even thinking of a good ride / comfort so to speak it’s the m3 all the way .

I don't deny that the ordinary M3 is a great car and the CS is an improvement on it, but the CSL is intoxicating. For me, once I'd owned a CSL and driven it every day, I could never be satisfied with a normal E46.

So perhaps the sensible thing to do is to buy a CSL, put in adjustable recaro seats & a sat Nav system. Keep the original seats in case you ever want to sell the car.

I found the standard CSL seats very comfortable and I'm 6'2" and 14 stone. I did put sat nav in.