Has BMW lost the plot with the E92 M3?

[edb49]

E46 M3 engine stats:
3200cc
343 bhp
269 lbft
107 bhp/litre
84 lbft/litre

E92 M3 engine stats:
4000cc
414 bhp
295 lbft
103 bhp/litre
74 lbft/litre

So the new M3's engine is essentially less efficient. Lower specific torque and specific power outputs. The marketing figures on the E92 are better (V8, more than 400bhp, 8400rpm redline) but I would say the only engineering triumph is that the engine is lighter than the last E46 M3's engine.

So what's happened at BMW's M division? Have the marketing suits told them "more revs, more revs, carbon roof!" or is there some decent excuse why the specific outputs on the new M3 are down on the last one.

[Pugsey]

edb49 said:

E46 M3 engine stats:
3200cc
343 bhp
269 lbft
107 bhp/litre
84 lbft/litre

E92 M3 engine stats:
4000cc
414 bhp
295 lbft
103 bhp/litre
74 lbft/litre

So the new M3's engine is essentially less efficient. Lower specific torque and specific power outputs. The marketing figures on the E92 are better (V8, more than 400bhp, 8400rpm redline) but I would say the only engineering triumph is that the engine is lighter than the last E46 M3's engine.

So what's happened at BMW's M division? Have the marketing suits told them "more revs, more revs, carbon roof!" or is there some decent excuse why the specific outputs on the new M3 are down on the last one.

I'd guess that, as it is a more powerful engine - a step forward for the M3 - but also less stressed, ie having to produce less power and torque per litre, it will actually be MORE efficient in the areas that seem important today - fuel consumption and emmisions - while, as I say, keeping us happy with a more powerful car than the outgoing one.

[edb49]

To add to the discussion, compression ratios:

E46: 11.5
E92: 12.0

[Apache]

Possibly in answer to some who say the S6 engines needed to be revved to deliver the goods?

[edb49]

To put it into context, if BMW had kept the same specific output for torque for the E92 V8 engine as they had with the old inline 6, then the V8 would be 470bhp. Even if it was the same specific output, it would be cracking 430bhp.

[swansea v6]

Slightly off topic but how accurate is the quoted power output for the E46 M3? As I have been led to believe the actual power output for the E36 M3 may have been slightly less than quoted

[outnumbered]

swansea v6 said:

Slightly off topic but how accurate is the quoted power output for the E46 M3? As I have been led to believe the actual power output for the E36 M3 may have been slightly less than quoted

E36 Evos were often measured way below the claimed 321bhp. But I believe E46s are typically putting out close to the claimed 343.

Does vixpy1 read this forum ?

[Olf]

I think there's a number of issues here:

1. Weight
Torque quoted blandly is all very well and good but torque does what it says on the tin - it bends stuff. To void bending stuff you need it to be stronger. Stronger generally (excl exotics) equals more weight. Weight is bad.No point developing fancy stuff like the carbon roof if you're going to ruin it with a big fat V8 'lump'. Less weight also means less inertia which means free revving loveliness.

2. Reliability
See above about no breaking stuff and extend it to the rest of the drivetrain.

3. The rest of the BMW range
A customer who has just laid out 80k for an M6 coupe isn't going to be too chuffed about M3 coupe killing him away from the lights for 30 k less. 1st rule of successful business, don't compete with you own products.

4. The competition.
The M3 WILL deal with the competition. Whether it's an RS4 or an AMG of some flavour, rest assured the M3 will deal with it. Job done, tills ring, happy Germans.

[d1bble]

well put Olf

[Olf]

d1bble said:

well put Olf

A rare moment of sober lucidity.

[Vixpy1]

outnumbered said:

swansea v6 said:

Slightly off topic but how accurate is the quoted power output for the E46 M3? As I have been led to believe the actual power output for the E36 M3 may have been slightly less than quoted

E36 Evos were often measured way below the claimed 321bhp. But I believe E46s are typically putting out close to the claimed 343.

Does vixpy1 read this forum ?

Possibly

E46 M3: 343 PS, so your actually looking for around 338bhp, I've had a couple make exactly 338bhp, my own example makes 330bhp at 70K which i can live with. If they have broken MAF's they are usually down at 290bhp ish, I would say the average car is around 325bhp. I've no doubt the engines do do the quoted power out of the factory, but they are very sensitive to how they are treated, the fuel they are run on etc.

E36 EVO : Usually the tattiest most battered examples make the best power, I've had minters down at 260bhp, and a really tatty 145K one the other day did 311bhp, not bad after 10 years! I would say average 300bhp.

Edited by Vixpy1 on Saturday 30th June 22:09

[edb49]

Olf, good points. My point is that in terms of specific outputs, the new M3 is seriously down on the last one... for the first time. If they only wanted the M3 to have 414bhp, they could have done it with a smaller engine. I think marketing came along to the M division and gave them a spec:

- Same or more power as RS4
- More revs, more revs! Lots of our customers watch F1 and want revs!
- V8 for the American market

I don't know about the torque curves, weight or cost of production, but the Porsche GT3 engine has better outputs than the E92 M3, and it's 400cc smaller and achieves the output with fewer revs.

[MitchT]

edb49 said:

as BMW lost the plot with the E92 M3?

Yes. The price confirms as much.

[baz1985]

MitchT said:

edb49 said:

as BMW lost the plot with the E92 M3?

Yes. The price confirms as much.

And so have the potential purchasers

[Zod]

baz1985 said:

MitchT said:

edb49 said:

as BMW lost the plot with the E92 M3?

Yes. The price confirms as much.

And so have the potential purchasers

don't be silly. If you believe that to be true, try getting hold of one in 2008.

[TheKeyboardDemon]

edb49 said:

E46 M3 engine stats:
3200cc
343 bhp
269 lbft
107 bhp/litre
84 lbft/litre

E92 M3 engine stats:
4000cc
414 bhp
295 lbft
103 bhp/litre
74 lbft/litre

So the new M3's engine is essentially less efficient. Lower specific torque and specific power outputs. The marketing figures on the E92 are better (V8, more than 400bhp, 8400rpm redline) but I would say the only engineering triumph is that the engine is lighter than the last E46 M3's engine.

So what's happened at BMW's M division? Have the marketing suits told them "more revs, more revs, carbon roof!" or is there some decent excuse why the specific outputs on the new M3 are down on the last one.

I'm a long way from being an expert on these matter, though I was under the impression that the stats shown alone do not tell the full story. It's not just about the power it's also about the delivery. As I understand it the new E92 M3 has something like 90% of the torque available from 2,000 rpm all the way to 8300 rpm, meaning you are getting more from less. Now hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about can make some sense of that, or correct me if I'm completely wrong.

[Pugsey]

My, simplistic, view is that the new car has more power and is faster than the outgoing one. Job done. Further analysis reveals that it has a feeling of solid grunt from the off making the old car feel a bit 'thin'. I'm afraid I don't care what size engine BMW use to achieve their outputs provided they enhance my driving experience - and believe me, they've done that!

[AsianMpower]

Vixpy1 said:

outnumbered said:

swansea v6 said:

Slightly off topic but how accurate is the quoted power output for the E46 M3? As I have been led to believe the actual power output for the E36 M3 may have been slightly less than quoted

E36 Evos were often measured way below the claimed 321bhp. But I believe E46s are typically putting out close to the claimed 343.

Does vixpy1 read this forum ?

Possibly

E46 M3: 343 PS, so your actually looking for around 338bhp, I've had a couple make exactly 338bhp, my own example makes 330bhp at 70K which i can live with. If they have broken MAF's they are usually down at 290bhp ish, I would say the average car is around 325bhp. I've no doubt the engines do do the quoted power out of the factory, but they are very sensitive to how they are treated, the fuel they are run on etc.



how can you tell if the maf is not functioning properly?

Edited by Vixpy1 on Saturday 30th June 22:09