E39 M5: This is what they don't tell you in the 'M' dealers
Discussion
I thought I would like to post this up for any prospective M5 oweners looking out there, thinking to themselves that those M5 things look pretty good value at the moment and why don't I just go get one?
Its just a little bit of a thought at what could go wrong with an M5 over a period of time.
Current mileage of mine - around 150,000 - seen mostly motorway miles and has been looked after from day 1 by BMW.
Now, apart from the general servicing - at £700 a pop and tyres etc have a think about this: I'll start with the less obvious failures first
Radio displays - now on its third one - first two pixelated badly £300 a go
Dash - classic pixelation problem £700 or there abouts
CD player - £250
Mass Air Meters - 3 £300 (not sure about these, could be wrong)
Vanos units 2 + accumulator units £6000 (inc 'labour')
Steering Rack - complete
Rear ARB bushes 2 - bad design breaks these regularly
Detached and frayed s/w bus behind the pedals caused a multitude of electrical problems
central locking motors for the doors 2
ABS sensors - lost count of how many it has eaten - car hates deep puddles and winter salt!
Heat exchanger for the AC
Viscous coupling(?) for the secondary fan (not entirely sure about the term here)
Overall the cost of reparing this M5 has been around £13,000 - half of what I paid for it. Fortunate for me, all the items I mentioned above have been covered under the extended warranty - which still has a while to go yet (this is the old warranty mind, not the new one)
A mixture I think - some a big deal, some clearly not, just annoying on what was a £65k car. Now in all those miles the car only let me down once with a roadside failure and that was with the windscreen wiper relay failing during what can only be described as a bloody monsoon!
So, would I get another one? Not bloody likely! In my opinion, if you plan to run a car like this over a long time and plan to cover a lot of miles, think very very hard. Most of the ones around at the moment will be without warranty (or it will be coming to an end soon)..
So, do they make a bargain? If you can find a low mileage one then maybe - but just be prepared for a nasty shock from time to time.
It will be intersting to see what happens to the new M5. I wounder if BMW have made this 'supercar' more reliable in its early model life than the E39 was in its. At least until recently the 'safety net' of the extended mileage warranty gave the owner some comfort. I think you would have to be crazy to buy the new model M5 close to 100k warranty limit.
Take this with a pinch of salt if you like - others will no doubt tell you how wonderful theirs have been and how nothing has ever gone wrong. Lucky for them - my intention has been to post the other side.
Its just a little bit of a thought at what could go wrong with an M5 over a period of time.
Current mileage of mine - around 150,000 - seen mostly motorway miles and has been looked after from day 1 by BMW.
Now, apart from the general servicing - at £700 a pop and tyres etc have a think about this: I'll start with the less obvious failures first
Radio displays - now on its third one - first two pixelated badly £300 a go
Dash - classic pixelation problem £700 or there abouts
CD player - £250
Mass Air Meters - 3 £300 (not sure about these, could be wrong)
Vanos units 2 + accumulator units £6000 (inc 'labour')
Steering Rack - complete
Rear ARB bushes 2 - bad design breaks these regularly
Detached and frayed s/w bus behind the pedals caused a multitude of electrical problems
central locking motors for the doors 2
ABS sensors - lost count of how many it has eaten - car hates deep puddles and winter salt!
Heat exchanger for the AC
Viscous coupling(?) for the secondary fan (not entirely sure about the term here)
Overall the cost of reparing this M5 has been around £13,000 - half of what I paid for it. Fortunate for me, all the items I mentioned above have been covered under the extended warranty - which still has a while to go yet (this is the old warranty mind, not the new one)
A mixture I think - some a big deal, some clearly not, just annoying on what was a £65k car. Now in all those miles the car only let me down once with a roadside failure and that was with the windscreen wiper relay failing during what can only be described as a bloody monsoon!
So, would I get another one? Not bloody likely! In my opinion, if you plan to run a car like this over a long time and plan to cover a lot of miles, think very very hard. Most of the ones around at the moment will be without warranty (or it will be coming to an end soon)..
So, do they make a bargain? If you can find a low mileage one then maybe - but just be prepared for a nasty shock from time to time.
It will be intersting to see what happens to the new M5. I wounder if BMW have made this 'supercar' more reliable in its early model life than the E39 was in its. At least until recently the 'safety net' of the extended mileage warranty gave the owner some comfort. I think you would have to be crazy to buy the new model M5 close to 100k warranty limit.
Take this with a pinch of salt if you like - others will no doubt tell you how wonderful theirs have been and how nothing has ever gone wrong. Lucky for them - my intention has been to post the other side.
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
derestrictor said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
Coming up to 4 years now..
The running costs and the expensive 'limited' warranty are why so many are now being advertised below 18K. Its a great car but as a long term ownership prospect I think not. Too many electrical components and a lack of specialists willing to work on these, without owners and their limitless pockets.
Go and buy an E34 or an e28 and enjoy life!
Go and buy an E34 or an e28 and enjoy life!
drivin_me_nuts said:
derestrictor said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
Coming up to 4 years now..
£13k over 4 years on a high performance car that's covered 150k miles seems ok to me. Or am i just used tp high servicing costs?
The VANOS and MAFS are a PITA but i knew all about them before i bought my M5 so it goes with territory.
stuh said:
drivin_me_nuts said:
derestrictor said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
However, the non-Vanos costs = £7k - how long have you owned the car?
There are plenty £50-£100k cars out there with humungous, associated running costs.
It doesn't matter which way you slice these situations, expensive, high performance cars invariably involve said costs.
Most M5 owners I know have been blessed with reliability and my only recurring gremlin is battery related.
The car is still debatably the best all round road car out there and this is why mine's a keeper. It's worth huge bills, should they ever arise because on a schlepp it is little short of sublime.
You put a Tubi on them, AP brakes up front and bathe.
Coming up to 4 years now..
£13k over 4 years on a high performance car that's covered 150k miles seems ok to me. Or am i just used tp high servicing costs?
The VANOS and MAFS are a PITA but i knew all about them before i bought my M5 so it goes with territory.
remember that's the 'extra' costs - I have not included the servicing costs here. There are the failure costs that I would have to pay for out of my pocket in addition to the standard servicing. It seems a lot to me!
An M5 is a high performance car that even new is quite a bargain. Second-hand with high mileage, it is een more so.
High performance cars tend to have high running costs by their nature. If you think £13k on an M5 is expensive, try buying a Ferrari 550 and you may well double that every single year.
High performance cars tend to have high running costs by their nature. If you think £13k on an M5 is expensive, try buying a Ferrari 550 and you may well double that every single year.
Haven't had mine that long (since June last year), and covered 22.000 km over this time.
Had one Inspection II (600 euro), and averaged 22 mpg (mainly fast continental motorway driving). Tyres still have very good thread (Michelin Sport) and expect them to last at least another 10.000 km.
Nothing has gone wrong, nothing. Have thrown winter conditions at it (20 cm of snow in Denmark, and it coped admirably with the OE style 66 winter wheels/tyres combo).
Rear antiroll brackets are 10 pounds and can be fitted by any DIYer in 5 minutes, MAFs can be had at Bosch or VW for 100 pounds for a pair, and the only thing I'm worrying about would be Vanos.
I intend to keep mine for a good long time and put big mileage on it (it already has 130.000 km now, thanks to its first German owner who pounded the autobahns), nothing else has its versatility and relative affordability.
Had one Inspection II (600 euro), and averaged 22 mpg (mainly fast continental motorway driving). Tyres still have very good thread (Michelin Sport) and expect them to last at least another 10.000 km.
Nothing has gone wrong, nothing. Have thrown winter conditions at it (20 cm of snow in Denmark, and it coped admirably with the OE style 66 winter wheels/tyres combo).
Rear antiroll brackets are 10 pounds and can be fitted by any DIYer in 5 minutes, MAFs can be had at Bosch or VW for 100 pounds for a pair, and the only thing I'm worrying about would be Vanos.
I intend to keep mine for a good long time and put big mileage on it (it already has 130.000 km now, thanks to its first German owner who pounded the autobahns), nothing else has its versatility and relative affordability.
They may not tell you these potential costs on the used car forecourts, but there are a number of people on here, including myself, who keep reminding people not to buy these cars with their last few £k. Thanks for pointing out in more detail the potential problems.
Also don't forget that this is a saloon car which is quicker than a standard 911, don't expect to be able to run it for a few quid more than a normal repmobile saloon car budget. The running costs and potential for big bills are what makes this car so cheap to buy in the first place.
I'd also suggest that certain things such as pixilation problems can be ignored at £700 a throw!
DAZ
(Quite happy to pay whatever it costs to keep his E39 M5 running tip top except for silly things like pixilation issues which affect all BMWs of the same period)
Also don't forget that this is a saloon car which is quicker than a standard 911, don't expect to be able to run it for a few quid more than a normal repmobile saloon car budget. The running costs and potential for big bills are what makes this car so cheap to buy in the first place.
I'd also suggest that certain things such as pixilation problems can be ignored at £700 a throw!
DAZ
(Quite happy to pay whatever it costs to keep his E39 M5 running tip top except for silly things like pixilation issues which affect all BMWs of the same period)
Edited by dazren on Monday 5th March 09:51
Rear ARB brackets are £10 and about five minutes to fit. Abs sensor cost me £30 and took about twenty minutes to fit.
I don't see why your car should eat ABS sensors they are bog standard and as well protected from the environment as any other five series car.
Add to that Vanos seems to be a relative non issue to cars past 2001 due to the modifications made to the design. Go on M5Board and look up the engine numbers of affected cars.
The sensors are a MK4 VW golf and I bought two for £90 from the states, cos its cheaper to buy them there and get them shipped here than it is to buy them here.
Honestly if you want to spend big money on an E39 M5 its easy, just let the dealer do it all. But if money is an issue to you, and obvious it is, just like me I might add, then why didn't you do your homework?
I don't see why your car should eat ABS sensors they are bog standard and as well protected from the environment as any other five series car.
Add to that Vanos seems to be a relative non issue to cars past 2001 due to the modifications made to the design. Go on M5Board and look up the engine numbers of affected cars.
The sensors are a MK4 VW golf and I bought two for £90 from the states, cos its cheaper to buy them there and get them shipped here than it is to buy them here.
Honestly if you want to spend big money on an E39 M5 its easy, just let the dealer do it all. But if money is an issue to you, and obvious it is, just like me I might add, then why didn't you do your homework?
Julian64 said:
Rear ARB brackets are £10 and about five minutes to fit. Abs sensor cost me £30 and took about twenty minutes to fit.
I don't see why your car should eat ABS sensors they are bog standard and as well protected from the environment as any other five series car.
Add to that Vanos seems to be a relative non issue to cars past 2001 due to the modifications made to the design. Go on M5Board and look up the engine numbers of affected cars.
The sensors are a MK4 VW golf and I bought two for £90 from the states, cos its cheaper to buy them there and get them shipped here than it is to buy them here.
Honestly if you want to spend big money on an E39 M5 its easy, just let the dealer do it all. But if money is an issue to you, and obvious it is, just like me I might add, then why didn't you do your homework?
I don't see why your car should eat ABS sensors they are bog standard and as well protected from the environment as any other five series car.
Add to that Vanos seems to be a relative non issue to cars past 2001 due to the modifications made to the design. Go on M5Board and look up the engine numbers of affected cars.
The sensors are a MK4 VW golf and I bought two for £90 from the states, cos its cheaper to buy them there and get them shipped here than it is to buy them here.
Honestly if you want to spend big money on an E39 M5 its easy, just let the dealer do it all. But if money is an issue to you, and obvious it is, just like me I might add, then why didn't you do your homework?
Actually three things come to mind
1. I did my homework - that's why I bought mine from a main dealer and extended the warranty three times
1. I did not pay for the work on the car - I knew anything major would be covered by warranty - until they changed the rules the swines!
2. The company I work for pays all the bills: servicing/insurance/fuel/tyres. I just pay the equivalent tax bill
So, actually running this car has not been an issue to me at all. It is now a written off asset - fully depreciated and worth peanuts and when it breaks next in a big way it goes to the big scrapper in the sky.
As for the issues with Vanos - the only thing that BMW did on the later models was fit an accumulator unit to the vanos to stop pressure drop . Incidentally, I know of two other M5 with 125K ish miles and cracked cylinder heads. Now that's a big deal for a car that is supposed to be a technical tour-de-force. 'Supercar' or not a regularly serviced and maintained car should not need a new £13k engine at 125k.
Like I said, be aware that big bills can be around the corner with these things. Pay your money, take your choice. Just have an ear open to the (potential) pitfalls with this car.
I posted this merely to make the point that these cars have a number of inherent, stupid and irritating problems that are expensive to resolve and to highlight this to others who may be toying with the idea of throwing a few K at one.
Edited by drivin_me_nuts on Tuesday 6th March 03:38
Last night I pilgrimmaged down the M6 in das 911 beetle. All very good and silly thrust, etc.
But it was a tad on the damp side with winds last reported sweeping the north face of The Eiger.
There were times during the requisite schnell when things had that distinct air of potentially flighty crosswind bourne trajectory swappage and whilst certainly mind focussing, not what you'd call confidence inspiring.
On the way back, it was the M5 and this side of a Bentley or 4wd Audi S or RS, little could have improved things more whilst leaving an indelible impression of such vast gruntwerk.
Whilst the absolute speeds were down some, they were still respectable enough and all the while, frankly, vastly more comfortable and yet sprung not by the Houston Dentsist Collectiv but yes, the Rabid Stote Whallopers of Manheim.
The E39 M5 isn't just the consumate all rounder but it's any meal you care to order up: a simple round of beans on toast (the ones with those little suasages, I'd suggest, too) or a fully basted platter of duck a l'orange [with trifle] - it can sate the vagueries of any roaming palate whilst flattering the heathen's inability to distinguish a bordeaux from a claret.
As Caligula wed his nag, so I am inclined to cement my affections with equally inapropriate attentions about the proximity of said vehicle's quadric funnels.
Vanos schpanos.
But it was a tad on the damp side with winds last reported sweeping the north face of The Eiger.
There were times during the requisite schnell when things had that distinct air of potentially flighty crosswind bourne trajectory swappage and whilst certainly mind focussing, not what you'd call confidence inspiring.
On the way back, it was the M5 and this side of a Bentley or 4wd Audi S or RS, little could have improved things more whilst leaving an indelible impression of such vast gruntwerk.
Whilst the absolute speeds were down some, they were still respectable enough and all the while, frankly, vastly more comfortable and yet sprung not by the Houston Dentsist Collectiv but yes, the Rabid Stote Whallopers of Manheim.
The E39 M5 isn't just the consumate all rounder but it's any meal you care to order up: a simple round of beans on toast (the ones with those little suasages, I'd suggest, too) or a fully basted platter of duck a l'orange [with trifle] - it can sate the vagueries of any roaming palate whilst flattering the heathen's inability to distinguish a bordeaux from a claret.
As Caligula wed his nag, so I am inclined to cement my affections with equally inapropriate attentions about the proximity of said vehicle's quadric funnels.
Vanos schpanos.
derestrictor said:
Last night I pilgrimmaged down the M6 in das 911 beetle. All very good and silly thrust, etc.
But it was a tad on the damp side with winds last reported sweeping the north face of The Eiger.
There were times during the requisite schnell when things had that distinct air of potentially flighty crosswind bourne trajectory swappage and whilst certainly mind focussing, not what you'd call confidence inspiring.
On the way back, it was the M5 and this side of a Bentley or 4wd Audi S or RS, little could have improved things more whilst leaving an indelible impression of such vast gruntwerk.
Whilst the absolute speeds were down some, they were still respectable enough and all the while, frankly, vastly more comfortable and yet sprung not by the Houston Dentsist Collectiv but yes, the Rabid Stote Whallopers of Manheim.
The E39 M5 isn't just the consumate all rounder but it's any meal you care to order up: a simple round of beans on toast (the ones with those little suasages, I'd suggest, too) or a fully basted platter of duck a l'orange [with trifle] - it can sate the vagueries of any roaming palate whilst flattering the heathen's inability to distinguish a bordeaux from a claret.
As Caligula wed his nag, so I am inclined to cement my affections with equally inapropriate attentions about the proximity of said vehicle's quadric funnels.
Vanos schpanos.
But it was a tad on the damp side with winds last reported sweeping the north face of The Eiger.
There were times during the requisite schnell when things had that distinct air of potentially flighty crosswind bourne trajectory swappage and whilst certainly mind focussing, not what you'd call confidence inspiring.
On the way back, it was the M5 and this side of a Bentley or 4wd Audi S or RS, little could have improved things more whilst leaving an indelible impression of such vast gruntwerk.
Whilst the absolute speeds were down some, they were still respectable enough and all the while, frankly, vastly more comfortable and yet sprung not by the Houston Dentsist Collectiv but yes, the Rabid Stote Whallopers of Manheim.
The E39 M5 isn't just the consumate all rounder but it's any meal you care to order up: a simple round of beans on toast (the ones with those little suasages, I'd suggest, too) or a fully basted platter of duck a l'orange [with trifle] - it can sate the vagueries of any roaming palate whilst flattering the heathen's inability to distinguish a bordeaux from a claret.
As Caligula wed his nag, so I am inclined to cement my affections with equally inapropriate attentions about the proximity of said vehicle's quadric funnels.
Vanos schpanos.
Er, does that mean its good???
Link to probably the best E39 M5 FAQ I've ever found:
www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62434
www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62434
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