Z3M v TVR Griff. 500
Discussion
Reading replies to my earlier post I gather Z3M's like TVR's produce less power than the quoted figure. I have a TVR V8S 240 bhp/270 ft lbs quoted but in reality more like 220/240 I guess but it only weighs 950 kgm and has trailing arm rear suspension like he Z3M. The Griff. however with 5L is quoted well over 300 for bhp/torque, weighs a little more at 1050 kgm and has double wishbone rear suspension. Just trying to get opinions from anyone that has owned both these models. The V8S is a handful on potholed B roads and I ask if a Z3M or Griff. would fair any better or should I go for a Z4 3.0 (M too expensive yet) which claims to have a chassis with 3 times the torsional stiffness of the Z3.
I replaced my Z3M with a Griff 500. The M Roadster was, in my opinion, the quicker car and certainly required a lot less attention. The Griff was a traditional "slow in, fast out" car, the BMW far less twitchy. I only got the Griff when I was able to have it as a second car. Loved both to bits, but they were chalk and cheese.
I have owned a Chimeara 500 which made 260bhp on the rollers - apparantly they average 250 - 280ish. Torque was spot on the claimed figure at 320lbs and 270 from 1800rpm!
Always felt a very quick car, no matter what gear and any revs it just took off. At the time a friend owned a Z3M Coupe and I couldn't shake him off in a straight line.
I now own a M3 Evo and have had experience on track with a 5L Griffith and Chim. The M3 is everybit as quick in a straight line and much quick through the bends.
It also returns 30 - 35 mpg on a run, although you won't get that out of a Z3M Roadster as they only have the 5 speed box, it will still be much better than the TVR.
I had to "do" the TVR thing as I had always wanted one, but then I really got into trackdays and learned more about handling. TVR's will always feel quicker than an M car of the era you're thinking, as they are raw and not refined in the same way - to that end, for the road they are probably more exciting. But a well driven hot hatch would see a TVR off, in the wet, and very possibly in the dry on a B road.
The M engine you are thinking about normally makes 300bhp on the rollers, if you are looking for the Z3M Roadster, I have a very good friend selling a 38k mile black/full black leather one so PM me and I will send you his details.
Cheers
Simon
Always felt a very quick car, no matter what gear and any revs it just took off. At the time a friend owned a Z3M Coupe and I couldn't shake him off in a straight line.
I now own a M3 Evo and have had experience on track with a 5L Griffith and Chim. The M3 is everybit as quick in a straight line and much quick through the bends.
It also returns 30 - 35 mpg on a run, although you won't get that out of a Z3M Roadster as they only have the 5 speed box, it will still be much better than the TVR.
I had to "do" the TVR thing as I had always wanted one, but then I really got into trackdays and learned more about handling. TVR's will always feel quicker than an M car of the era you're thinking, as they are raw and not refined in the same way - to that end, for the road they are probably more exciting. But a well driven hot hatch would see a TVR off, in the wet, and very possibly in the dry on a B road.
The M engine you are thinking about normally makes 300bhp on the rollers, if you are looking for the Z3M Roadster, I have a very good friend selling a 38k mile black/full black leather one so PM me and I will send you his details.
Cheers
Simon
Bear in mind there are 2 versions of the M Roadster - the S50 and the S54 versions.
The former has the engine from the earlier M3s and has no traction control system. The latter has the engine from the current M3 and has traction control amongst the many other changes. The differences can be seen on the following site
www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=16
The early car needs to be treat with great respect in the wet the latter is more forgiving. Both are great fun and I have one of the S54 models which are very rare - only 79 made in RHD
The former has the engine from the earlier M3s and has no traction control system. The latter has the engine from the current M3 and has traction control amongst the many other changes. The differences can be seen on the following site
www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=16
The early car needs to be treat with great respect in the wet the latter is more forgiving. Both are great fun and I have one of the S54 models which are very rare - only 79 made in RHD
I've owned both and as said above they are chalk & cheese. The Griff felt 'fragile' in that you always wondered what what going to break. I also drove mine knowing it wanted to chuck me throught he nearest hedge! So tended to be rather cautious with it. Not had the Z3MC long but it is very much the modern Griff. I have the S50 (no TC
) and love it. Not so much of an occassion as the Griff but much faster because it feels more trustworthy. Still needs respect though! Paul.B
Really depends on the Tiv (which I am sure as an owner of one you are well aware). I am lucky enough to have a breathed on Chim. It has an officially verified RR figure of 315bhp (at Surrey Rolling Road) and is reckoned to be "strong". As a consequence at V-Max from a standing start it was substantially faster than the M3s (E46) even though they were being more brutal at the standing start. The DMS modified Z4m that was also present was about level pegging. Having driven a standard Z4m it wasn't significantly slower (when looking at speedo) but boy did it feel slovenly in comparison!
There are plenty of mildly modified Griffs out there with camshafts/chips etc which are no more than non-modified cars and should be quicker than a 6-cyl BM. Down a twisting road I am sure that you you are aware (as has been pointed out) that a well driven GTI should keep a Tiv in sight. That, however, is hardly the point. I'm a bit of a neanderthal at heart and like the thrill. Furthermore while I havn't driven an S the Chim surprised me when I first tried it (I was also considering a 964) in that it really is pretty well tied down.
There are plenty of mildly modified Griffs out there with camshafts/chips etc which are no more than non-modified cars and should be quicker than a 6-cyl BM. Down a twisting road I am sure that you you are aware (as has been pointed out) that a well driven GTI should keep a Tiv in sight. That, however, is hardly the point. I'm a bit of a neanderthal at heart and like the thrill. Furthermore while I havn't driven an S the Chim surprised me when I first tried it (I was also considering a 964) in that it really is pretty well tied down.
Thanks for replies to date. I have another question concerning value in the market place. It is noted that few cars, even potential classics like Z3M and TVR Griff. have not taken a pounding in value this year. Unlike TVR's where engine size does not affect the value too much it would seem that the Z3M is even now at a premium compared to the 3.0 model. Is the extra premium worth it and what are you really getting extra for your money, driving experience etc? Z3M's are rarer than Griffs. but against that you have the commonality and sheer numbers with the other Z3's. Comments please
I've never owned a Z3M or even driven one, but I've sprinted my standard (at the time) V8S against a well driven Z3M and there wasn't much in it. I'd expect a standard 500 to have a substantial performance advantage. But all these cars are fast enough that the driver can make more difference than the performance advantage between the cars.
agree my griff is far quicker than my old m3 in a straight line and can honestly say all the e46 m3's ive played with have lost the drag race though im sure they would woop me on the twistie's but i like the brown trouser driving experience not to everybody's taste though,
the old v8 requires constant monitoring of ignition timing etc to maintain performance unlike modern cars
but i enjoy tinkering with it, im also a techie so enjoy that side of things
the z3m / m3 in my opinion are entirely different animals to tvr's
the old v8 requires constant monitoring of ignition timing etc to maintain performance unlike modern cars
but i enjoy tinkering with it, im also a techie so enjoy that side of things
the z3m / m3 in my opinion are entirely different animals to tvr's
I just posted on the CSL forum about a Griffth 500 I used to own some years ago compared to an M3 EVO I had at the same time.
The Griffith was a monster and frankly was in a totally different league to the M3 in pure performance terms. Mine was a 95 model,'pre-cat' 340HP version ie. the 500HC High compression one and whilst I never had it Dyno'd it must surely have been near quoted BHP.
To be honest the 'on paper' performance differences bore no relation to the actual difference between the two cars!
The Griffith was a monster and frankly was in a totally different league to the M3 in pure performance terms. Mine was a 95 model,'pre-cat' 340HP version ie. the 500HC High compression one and whilst I never had it Dyno'd it must surely have been near quoted BHP.
To be honest the 'on paper' performance differences bore no relation to the actual difference between the two cars!
I sold a 1998 as new 16k ZM Roadster to fund my Griffith 500 and to be honest both cars have there pros and cons.
BMW:+ Great top speed and handling good performance, nice ride, toys, water tight, 4 exhausts, very pretty car, fairly safe, good resid value,
BMW:- poor image as it is compared to the 1.8 by most people not in the know, hair dresser image, performance can sometimes be hard to reach due to long gearing and engine will not always deliver a consistant power (temperature dependent as told by BMW), can be boring to drive unless going 10/10, no tinkering allowed nature of engine = big bills, i was always worried about vanos noises (unfounded realy),poor engine note.
I will never put one of these cars down as i did enjoy the car and in the right conditions will beat my griff hands down. The car sometimes felt that it needed a 1/2gear between cogs to get the best performance and if it could take the 6 speed box it would have been there.
TVR,s leak, breakdown although with a tinkering owner this is no worse than any other car, They have there own niggles, cams, rust on chassis, electrics etc. A TVR is a love or hate relationship, i enjoy the bad times in the garage as well as the good and i feel if you are this type of person a griff is the car. Performance of the griff tear strips off the M in most straight line situations but you would be safer in the M but less excited, also the performance is there all the time with no wait for the explosive top end power.
The Cars are two different animals.
Safe fast use everyday reliable but with a good chance of a ban if you use to the full performance The BMW everytime!
Scary back to basics fun with supercar power for sunny weekends with a soundtrack to die for the griff is my choice.
The above is only my opinion and having owned both cars I feel thay appeal to two completely different people with different uses.
Thanks
Mark
BMW:+ Great top speed and handling good performance, nice ride, toys, water tight, 4 exhausts, very pretty car, fairly safe, good resid value,
BMW:- poor image as it is compared to the 1.8 by most people not in the know, hair dresser image, performance can sometimes be hard to reach due to long gearing and engine will not always deliver a consistant power (temperature dependent as told by BMW), can be boring to drive unless going 10/10, no tinkering allowed nature of engine = big bills, i was always worried about vanos noises (unfounded realy),poor engine note.
I will never put one of these cars down as i did enjoy the car and in the right conditions will beat my griff hands down. The car sometimes felt that it needed a 1/2gear between cogs to get the best performance and if it could take the 6 speed box it would have been there.
TVR,s leak, breakdown although with a tinkering owner this is no worse than any other car, They have there own niggles, cams, rust on chassis, electrics etc. A TVR is a love or hate relationship, i enjoy the bad times in the garage as well as the good and i feel if you are this type of person a griff is the car. Performance of the griff tear strips off the M in most straight line situations but you would be safer in the M but less excited, also the performance is there all the time with no wait for the explosive top end power.
The Cars are two different animals.
Safe fast use everyday reliable but with a good chance of a ban if you use to the full performance The BMW everytime!
Scary back to basics fun with supercar power for sunny weekends with a soundtrack to die for the griff is my choice.
The above is only my opinion and having owned both cars I feel thay appeal to two completely different people with different uses.
Thanks
Mark
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