E39 M5 - facelift or not?

[wrn]

I need a car for about 12 months that is not going to depreciate too hard - I was looking at a 996 Turbo but have turned my attentions to an E39 M5. I live in Central London and I am in my 20s so an M5 is a little big/old, but I had an E46 M3 cab a few years ago and have decided that an M5 looks like good understated fun... and goes like hell.

Questions (and apologies if some have been previously covered in this forum):

- The M5 has been replaced and - unlike the M3 - am I right in thinking that older values should therefore not fall too much further over the next year? They can't go that much lower!

- Which colours resell best? Silver bores me and most cars seem to be blue, but which blue is the best (black/grey appeals to me)?

- I have noticed that most cars have two tone interior, does this look good or hideous in the flesh (being a simple type I suspect the latter)?

- Can anyone tell me more about the facelift that took place around 2001? Do I need to go for a post-facelift car? What changed (sat nav, lights, front PDC, M3 steering wheel + ?)?

- I know that with Porsches an OPC (Official Porsche Centre) will put a warranty on a car regardless of whether it is purchased through them or not (subject to inspection) - will BMW do similar?

- BMW has recently (controversially) hiked the price of warranties, should I a) try and find a car which already has an extended BMW warranty on it, or b) purchase a third party warranty? Does the new 60k warranty mileage restriction mean that I need to find a car with considerably less than 60k miles? I will do <10k miles/yr.

I am keen to pay well under £20k - but want a great car that is going to cause me no problems (yes - I know...!).

Help (and any other tips) would be much appreciated - help me convince myself to get an M5!

Will


>> Edited by wrn on Tuesday 11th April 01:22

[xm5er]

I would imagine that the M5 will continue to lose value just like the last (rarer) model did only slowing once you get to around and under £10k. That said, i saw one on autotrader for £12k last week.

Why not look at a 993, they seem to be fairly static.

[wrn]

I like my creature comforts so the 993 is too basic for me unfortunately. There are 51/02 (60k-70k miles) plate M5s around for £20k with BMW warranties which represent good value in my eyes.

[off_again]

I am in the market for a E39 M5 this year and I would be cautious if you are looking to have retained value after 12 months. Since the news about the warranties hit the headlines, the prices have tumbled. They are very specialist and all you need to do is take a look on Autotrader every week to see what is selling and what is not.... A chap on a BMW forum bought one for £15k 18 months ago, selling it 12 months later for £14k, but that was bottom price at the time - what was £14k 6 months ago is now £12k or lower, some even just breaking the £10k mark!!!!! I hate to know what the trade pays for them....

The bigger the price the more they have left to fall. A fully warrantied to 2007 E39 with low miles and the right spec (satnav, comms pack) is a good bet, but even now they are dropping to £18k or less. Interestingly though, even BMW official dealers are having a hard time selling them! I saw a MINT one with 50k on the clock at my local dealer for £21k with warranty!!! Thats including the dealer margin!!!! A quick search of the BMW dealer network shows that there are three in the local area from between £26K-£21K.... clearly they have more to loose....!!

So if I were you, I wouldnt look at an E39. From what I can tell, M5 owners are either swapping for the new one if they bought brand new or swapping to something else like a M3 CSL if they arent the first owner. Since E60 M5s are being delivered in volume now, expect more on the market which will only push down prices.

I would go for something unusual or odd friend of the wife's has a Lexus RX400h - on his second already - not lost a bean in 12 months!!! Or a 993 for the classic Porsche-thang.... how about a rock bottom priced Elise, they are pretty static too... I dont know - I have always lost a fortune on cars and I doubt that is not going to change...

[wrn]

off_again - I really appreciate your thoughts, they are clearly well informed. I should point out that I am comfortable with losing a couple of grand or so over the year - it is a >£5k hit that I am keen to avoid... so I feel that an M5 could be right?

I am looking for a good car: carbon black with nav/comms, post-facelift, reasonable miles, BMW extended warranty and at sensible money (without two-tone leather).

My AMV8 is going next week and I have a 997 Turbo due in about 12 months - I need a car to plug the gap.

Will

>> Edited by wrn on Tuesday 11th April 21:49

[granville]

Squire,

How on earth do you tolerate a manual car in London?

I can just about avoid a psychological meltdown every morning for my modest crawl through Ferretville as I've developed a strictly controlled, Jackie Stewartesque approach to chauffeury feathered clutch control but if it wasn't for the Foo Fighters (in the CD now for n months) on the stez combined with the surefire promise of a post-work dose of automotive Luftwaffage involving the transgression of just about every facet of motoring butt inspection known to man on the drive home at night, I genuinely think I'd need something with a 1.2 litre banana burning powerplant and stabilisers on it.

Er, I think the RX400h sounds like a plan.

However, re the M5, I really don't know how anyone can now question it's preposterous, bargain bucket performance credentials: if you can stomach that slightly snatchy clutch/gear action for use in the smoke then have a punt: I derive endless joy from (mercifully) short periods of urban creepage, savouring the incredible flow of absolute engineering and then finding an escape route (slip road) and steadily gunning up to grossen growlage and marvelling at the stability of it all.

Although the new version beckons with the promise of total motoring, the E39 and I are now as Spock with that firkin' great whale at the end of Star Trek IV: utterly, rapturously melded.

Very much like the fine wine of Porsche Turbodom, once sampled it's hard to imagine many credible alternatives.

I'd therefore seek out an Alpina B10 V8S in your position.

Bibble,

DeR.

[off_again]

derestrictor said:

if you can stomach that slightly snatchy clutch/gear action for use in the smoke then have a punt:

Slight over critical there by any chance?

But, yes agree with the manual thing though - there was a B10 V8S on Autotrader recently, though the slightly shocking Purple colour might put most people off.... But for a truely bespoke BMW with near-M5 performance the Alpina's are cracking value. You have to be really commited to an Alpina to buy one new as they are even worse than M-cars for deprechiation! Still, even better for the rest of us.

If you buy right and with a good spec (personally I think the Carbon black is the doggies) then you shouldnt loose more than £5k in 12 months. I can see a limit to the lowest priced ones - at or around the £10k mark is what I would guess the lowest priced ones will hit (rough as nails ones less) - there is this mental limit that the British public have, 100k miles and £10k price... though dont expect this to last for next summer. They came out in 1999 and next year will be approaching 7 years old, which is getting on in the great scheme of things - another 3 and its "classic" status for insurance purposes!

[kneedowndeano]

derestrictor said:

Squire, How on earth do you tolerate a manual car in London? I can just about avoid a psychological meltdown every morning for my modest crawl through Ferretville as I've developed a strictly controlled, Jackie Stewartesque approach to chauffeury feathered clutch control but if it wasn't for the Foo Fighters (in the CD now for n months) on the stez combined with the surefire promise of a post-work dose of automotive Luftwaffage involving the transgression of just about every facet of motoring butt inspection known to man on the drive home at night, I genuinely think I'd need something with a 1.2 litre banana burning powerplant and stabilisers on it. Er, I think the RX400h sounds like a plan. However, re the M5, I really don't know how anyone can now question it's preposterous, bargain bucket performance credentials: if you can stomach that slightly snatchy clutch/gear action for use in the smoke then have a punt: I derive endless joy from (mercifully) short periods of urban creepage, savouring the incredible flow of absolute engineering and then finding an escape route (slip road) and steadily gunning up to grossen growlage and marvelling at the stability of it all. Although the new version beckons with the promise of total motoring, the E39 and I are now as Spock with that firkin' great whale at the end of Star Trek IV: utterly, rapturously melded. Very much like the fine wine of Porsche Turbodom, once sampled it's hard to imagine many credible alternatives. I'd therefore seek out an Alpina B10 V8S in your position. Bibble, DeR.

did you ever sort out that battery problem DeR?

[xm5er]

Would a breadvan have enough creature comforts for you?

The M coupe's prices dont seem to have moved for a couple of years now.

[baz1985]

M coupe would save a lot in depreciation imo

[wrn]

Unfortunately an M coupe / Lexus does nothing for me - and I buy half with my heart and half with my head.

I have spoken to BMW to confirm the warranty situation and for an M5 extended warranty fees are now:

- £900 up to 60k miles
- £1,800 >60k miles <100k miles (not available over 100k miles)

The M5s likely to depreciate least are the cheaper ones, which are the older ones, which are the ones less likely to have a warranty. Are there any third party warranties which match up to BMW (or even come close)? Am I mad to buy without a warranty (ie. if things go wrong are they that hideous to fix)?

P.S. I have found two interesting cars:
- 51 plate carbon black (+ cream leather...) one with 70k miles, nav and 9 month BMW extended warranty (private) but have to wait 4 weeks for new V5 / tax to be issued
- 0202 49k miles carbon black, nav £23k

>> Edited by wrn on Wednesday 12th April 15:30

[off_again]

wrn said:

The M5s likely to depreciate least are the cheaper ones, which are the older ones, which are the ones less likely to have a warranty. Are there any third party warranties which match up to BMW (or even come close)? Am I mad to buy without a warranty (ie. if things go wrong are they that hideous to fix)?

Interesting question - now that BMW have fixed the limit on the warranty to 100k miles its largely academic now! There are plenty below that mileage, but as the years progress they will become fewer and fewer so it will be less of an impact for the larger number on the market.

To answer the question though - are you daft to buy without? Nah not really - buy carefully and it should be fine. Now, bad news is that a brand new engine is about £15k. Good news is that the M5 V8 is pretty much solid and its relatively rare to suffer a VANOS fault. Earlier 1999 models are more prone than others and post-2001 have had some changes to reduce this (though this is NO guarantee!). That said, the M46 M3 has had more engine failures than the M5. A noisy VANOS is NOT a clear sign of a large bill, but oil consumption, or more importantly, an increased consumption of oil is a warning flag. Block is solid and basically its only VANOS that is the problem - though seals and others do fail, but this is to be expected.

Costs to repair or fix the engine - well thats an open book at a dealer. Indies are getting up to speed and many well known names can do the work. Munich legends being one who can do work on a V8 M5 and head fixes. Though you are still looking at a couple of thousand to fix - a VANOS fault is not necessarily a death sentence and might not need a replacement. Some M5's are now being fixed from parts salvaged from unrepairables.... FAB and others are now stocking key parts outside of the dealer chain so are MUCH cheaper. Though supply is still limited - time will ease this. From what I understand head work / VANOS fix on an E39 is around £3000+ depending on the problem. Certainly NOT the huge costs that are bounded around. Quite bizarre when you consider that the warranty is £1,800 a year to start with.....!!!

As you can see I have done my homework

I dont even own one yet... though its always better to be prepared rather than not. Its not a rock solid investment, but its a pretty good one.

Buying hints as I have been told:

1) Check oil consumption - they all drink oil, check increased consumption
2) Check start from COLD - if its always hot when you take a look - possible problem - though they do rattle at start, they should drop to almost silent after a few seconds. Anything more is VANOS
3) Clutches are weak, as are brakes - recent replacement saves bills
4) Tyres are expensive, but can last long - check replacement and wear - especially for uneven tread
5) Servicing should be done on the button - especially the first initial one - its critical
6) Oil is also important - check only the best used (no issue with main dealer or qualified indie
7) Body condition isnt too much of an issue - its pretty much standard E39, though specific parts expensive - like mirrors etc. Though lots of replicas available to reduce the cost.
8) Check all electrics and goodies - E39s are good, but airbag sensors can be £300 and ABS sensors £150!!! The odd thing is a joke, but electrics are generally good. Check the OBC display too - all pixels should work - £300 to fix!!!

I really need to get out more

[wrn]

off_again - you certainly have done your homework and I appreciate the time put into your response.

In summary it sounds like the biggest bill for a single fault is around £3k (and that a complete engine replacement is very unlikely). As you say, given the £1,800 cost of the warranty the risk is well worth taking. A far cheaper warranty from the RAC / AA or similar will cover all the smaller electrical faults which you refer to.

Your buying tips are great - though checking oil consumption sounds quite challenging!

In my eyes a lower mileage (<70k) post-facelift car (ie. not the cheapest... but not the most expensive) in good condition with a good colour combo + nav represents the best buy which will be easy to sell when the time comes and shouldn't depreciate too much or present too many problems. About £17k - £18k looks like the right money to spend.

Will

[off_again]

Oh, and while I remember. Try www.warrantyworks.co.uk/

They do warranties for M5's and for example you can get a less than 100k miles less than 6 year old M5 annual policy for £800 to cover upto £2500. Its not great but a bit more realistic on the cost basis though.