e46: M3 CSL vs a modified M3
Discussion
Hey guys so an M3 CSL has been on the bucket list for some time now. But the prices have as good as doubled from when I was originally looking and it's thrown up a dilemma with 3 options.
I can afford a CSL - but for the price I wonder if there are other bucketlist cars that I'd potentially enjoy more for the money. ( I Could buy a nobel m12 AND a base M3 and have change. or an Exige and a ropey m3, or a gallardo with a little left to strip it out and modify)
I'd like to drive the thing too, residuals will be strong but I think that would always be muttering in the back of my mind unless I truly and utterly loved it and decided it's a forever car etc..
The middle ground seems to be an M3 CS - which comes in at a third of the price. Missing a few refinements eg the carbon roof, but has the CSL steering rack, rear brakes, ZCP logic and the later m3s share things such as the headers with the csl so might be a '85% there' approach
And the other end of the spectrum, buying as cheap a solid m3 as possible (e46 or e92), and having a budget to modify it into something special, strip out as much weight, change the roll bars and springs, steering rack if I Can source one, intake and the usuals.. OK the m54 will always be that extra %, I wonder how much I'll notice by the time I've modified it
I guess the question is has anyone experienced both a CSL And a modified M3 and can share a perspective? I don't need a car to be soft and daily drivable, the more hardcore the better, Does a csl feel as special as it should, and is it one of those things where you can build a car that's just as enjoyable for far less?
I can afford a CSL - but for the price I wonder if there are other bucketlist cars that I'd potentially enjoy more for the money. ( I Could buy a nobel m12 AND a base M3 and have change. or an Exige and a ropey m3, or a gallardo with a little left to strip it out and modify)
I'd like to drive the thing too, residuals will be strong but I think that would always be muttering in the back of my mind unless I truly and utterly loved it and decided it's a forever car etc..
The middle ground seems to be an M3 CS - which comes in at a third of the price. Missing a few refinements eg the carbon roof, but has the CSL steering rack, rear brakes, ZCP logic and the later m3s share things such as the headers with the csl so might be a '85% there' approach
And the other end of the spectrum, buying as cheap a solid m3 as possible (e46 or e92), and having a budget to modify it into something special, strip out as much weight, change the roll bars and springs, steering rack if I Can source one, intake and the usuals.. OK the m54 will always be that extra %, I wonder how much I'll notice by the time I've modified it
I guess the question is has anyone experienced both a CSL And a modified M3 and can share a perspective? I don't need a car to be soft and daily drivable, the more hardcore the better, Does a csl feel as special as it should, and is it one of those things where you can build a car that's just as enjoyable for far less?
Hmm.
A modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
A modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
GregorFuk said:
Hmm.
A modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
Fancy meeting you here!A modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
Jonstar said:
I don't even think they were rated that well at launch, not sure why they are so expensive other than being a limited edition BMW. If you actually want to drive get an M3 and modify it. Then get a boxster Spyder or other 2 seater sports car for the rest.
Supported. I went to a 987 Spyder after the CSL. A much better car for driving if a tad impractical. I had an CSL for 10 years sold it at £32k in 2019 and regretted it pretty much since. Did 45k miles in while I had it, took it to the ring and Spa.
Having driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
Having driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
petery27 said:
I had an CSL for 10 years sold it at £32k in 2019 and regretted it pretty much since. Did 45k miles in while I had it, took it to the ring and Spa.
Having driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
Yes people sell them, try other cars and then come back. Having driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
Other than it’s a pleasure to drive, if any other incentive is needed don’t forget in 2028 there will be the 25th anniversary get together in Germany plus the market for csl opens up in America.
Well the plot thickens a little.
An Alpina B9 (1988) has come available and whilst again I doubt it can feel anywhere near as special as the aformentioned, it does have a nostalgia factor for me that I'm finding hard to drop (at a much lower price point). The down side is being a classic, it comes with all of the flakey paint, mouldy headliner and worn rubbers associated with it.
Thanks for the interesting mix of replies though, for the record I'm no closer to a decision
GT3s are simply not worth the money they ask for here, a good 997 costs as much as my 2014 650s cost with virtually no kms on it - a good RS goes for close to $1m here. Controversial viewpojnt - they're good, but they're certainly not $1m good!
Simillar sentiment to what you say about the CSL I suppose.
But you touch on a good point, "They are just not that good" is what rings out loud and leans me towards a much cheaper M3..
I'm undecided on the box, although I have seen some manual swapped CSL's - but part of me loves the single clutch auto kick in the head with aggressive shifting approach to life!
Funnily enough I've had a couple of Z4Ms and loved them but it's a bit of been there done that. I'd love to try a Coupe but an M3 has always been on the want list. Here a basic M3 is cheaper than a Z4m too so there is that.
Could easily get a standard spec M3 and an S2k with some spare change for something else or mods though
An Alpina B9 (1988) has come available and whilst again I doubt it can feel anywhere near as special as the aformentioned, it does have a nostalgia factor for me that I'm finding hard to drop (at a much lower price point). The down side is being a classic, it comes with all of the flakey paint, mouldy headliner and worn rubbers associated with it.
Thanks for the interesting mix of replies though, for the record I'm no closer to a decision
GregorFuk said:
Hmm.
A modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
See that raises a few things for me. Because a modded M3 - to me would very much involve the backets and carbon door cards which are all easily availableA modded M3 will never feel as special as a CSL, because it's not a CSL. Part of the CSL experience is sitting in the buckets with the carbon door cards etc etc. Any you'll always know in your head that this is the case.
But... What I found. As much as I loved my CSL............. It wasn't a 997 GT3. And at today's prices that is where I would put my money. I bought my shabby CSL for £22k. Drove it hard whilst retuning it to near mint condition (Reddish refurb etc etc). Sold it for £35K. That price felt about right for the car that it was. But today at £60/70/80K, no way. They are just not that good.
GT3s are simply not worth the money they ask for here, a good 997 costs as much as my 2014 650s cost with virtually no kms on it - a good RS goes for close to $1m here. Controversial viewpojnt - they're good, but they're certainly not $1m good!
Simillar sentiment to what you say about the CSL I suppose.
But you touch on a good point, "They are just not that good" is what rings out loud and leans me towards a much cheaper M3..
trawler said:
Yes people sell them, try other cars and then come back.
Other than it’s a pleasure to drive, if any other incentive is needed don’t forget in 2028 there will be the 25th anniversary get together in Germany plus the market for csl opens up in America.
Germany's a bit far for me but the America factor does weigh on my mind. I tend not to see cars as an investment - more fool me - but favourable exchange rate etc may mean good residuals. But then Americans don't seem to love Beems the same as JDM cars so not sure it will have a big impactOther than it’s a pleasure to drive, if any other incentive is needed don’t forget in 2028 there will be the 25th anniversary get together in Germany plus the market for csl opens up in America.
petery27 said:
I had an CSL for 10 years sold it at £32k in 2019 and regretted it pretty much since. Did 45k miles in while I had it, took it to the ring and Spa.
Having driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
Good to know thanks for the insight! Good point maybe it's one of those things that I should just try and then move on from - a bit harder to sell here and come with a bigger premiumHaving driven loads of different cars (997 gt3/GTS, Ferrari 599s(gto) and astons, Merc AMGs nothing has quite hit the spot like the CSL does as the all round special car and the noise!
If I had the money to buy another I’d be out looking for one now. You won’t lose money on a CSL, buy a good one use it and then sell it in a year if you don’t get on with it and it won’t have cost you anything.
darreni said:
If you want a csl, no amount of mods to a std m3 will scratch that itch.
Arghtrawler said:
If you like I can answer a few questions but you don’t accept email
That would be awesome, didn't realise that, now enabled Mr Tidy said:
I've never had an M3 but I know I'd only want a manual gearbox, so my ultimate would be a manual CS unless I stumbled upon a converted CSL!
But a I don't need rear seats I have a Z4M that has most of the CSL underpinnings and is cheaper than a "base" M3.
But a I don't need rear seats I have a Z4M that has most of the CSL underpinnings and is cheaper than a "base" M3.
I'm undecided on the box, although I have seen some manual swapped CSL's - but part of me loves the single clutch auto kick in the head with aggressive shifting approach to life!
Funnily enough I've had a couple of Z4Ms and loved them but it's a bit of been there done that. I'd love to try a Coupe but an M3 has always been on the want list. Here a basic M3 is cheaper than a Z4m too so there is that.
GregorFuk said:
Supported. I went to a 987 Spyder after the CSL. A much better car for driving if a tad impractical.
A spyder would probably be cheaper and a hell of a car!Andy OH said:
I think I'd be buying an Exige and an older E46 M3. You can then at your leisure and when more money is available plough more money and mods into an E46 M3.
Jonstar said:
I don't even think they were rated that well at launch, not sure why they are so expensive other than being a limited edition BMW. If you actually want to drive get an M3 and modify it. Then get a boxster Spyder or other 2 seater sports car for the rest.
Oof. Unfortunately the Spyder here is around the price of a CSL (circa $160k AUD) but is a hell of a carCould easily get a standard spec M3 and an S2k with some spare change for something else or mods though
Re. The American factor: People bash on about this but always seem to forget a key point: Americans like their steering wheels on the left-hand side. There are plenty of LHD CSLs in mainland Europe that can be bought and exported. Owners of RHD cars should not expect the same level of demand or value increase.
Re. They are just not that good: If it were my money and I wanted that type of car, I'd be buying an Alfa Quadrifoglio. I see this as a spiritual successor to the CSL in many ways. Think about it: four doors + boot, carbon bonnet, carbon roof (post-2021, I think), carbon prop shaft, big brakes, Ferrari engine (sort of). What's not to like?! Fit some coil-overs and drop it 20 mm if you must. I think that would be a much “better” car than a CSL.
Re. You won't lose money: Hmm. I'm not so sure. Could be true. It's hard to tell. Unless sale price is listed on an auction site, you never know what these cars really go for, and very few people like to broadcast that they took a bath on something. What I feel sure about is that the mint POA/£80K+ examples must be a hard sell. You've got a pretty limited audience looking for a car like that. So, you might not lose money, but if you decide the itch is scratched and want to move on, you may be sitting on the car for a long time. Worth considering.
Re. The gearbox: I never, ever drove my CSL in full automatic mode. I always used the paddles, calling the shifts manually. If you leave the box in full-auto, you will be extremely disappointed. It's really, really bad. Driving on the paddles is a much better experience and fits with the ethos of the car. You will, however, have to do periodic clutch adaptations if you want to keep everything just right. If you don't, then it is almost inevitable that shifts will become soft and slurry as the clutch wears.
Re. Modding M3s: It's not cheap, and you never get your money back. And, whisper it... the S54 may not be the most robust of engines. There are a number of CSLs that are not on their first engine (though most owners keep that under their hat), and for a while BMW were clean out of CSL camshafts. You can do the math.
Re. They are just not that good: If it were my money and I wanted that type of car, I'd be buying an Alfa Quadrifoglio. I see this as a spiritual successor to the CSL in many ways. Think about it: four doors + boot, carbon bonnet, carbon roof (post-2021, I think), carbon prop shaft, big brakes, Ferrari engine (sort of). What's not to like?! Fit some coil-overs and drop it 20 mm if you must. I think that would be a much “better” car than a CSL.
Re. You won't lose money: Hmm. I'm not so sure. Could be true. It's hard to tell. Unless sale price is listed on an auction site, you never know what these cars really go for, and very few people like to broadcast that they took a bath on something. What I feel sure about is that the mint POA/£80K+ examples must be a hard sell. You've got a pretty limited audience looking for a car like that. So, you might not lose money, but if you decide the itch is scratched and want to move on, you may be sitting on the car for a long time. Worth considering.
Re. The gearbox: I never, ever drove my CSL in full automatic mode. I always used the paddles, calling the shifts manually. If you leave the box in full-auto, you will be extremely disappointed. It's really, really bad. Driving on the paddles is a much better experience and fits with the ethos of the car. You will, however, have to do periodic clutch adaptations if you want to keep everything just right. If you don't, then it is almost inevitable that shifts will become soft and slurry as the clutch wears.
Re. Modding M3s: It's not cheap, and you never get your money back. And, whisper it... the S54 may not be the most robust of engines. There are a number of CSLs that are not on their first engine (though most owners keep that under their hat), and for a while BMW were clean out of CSL camshafts. You can do the math.
On the topic of The American Factor I realise owners there want LHD, but cars like this cost far more in mainland Europe than the UK.
About a year ago someone in the UK was selling a Z4M Roadster and the buyer came from Germany because converting it to LHD was still going to be cheaper for him than buying an LHD one in Europe!
About a year ago someone in the UK was selling a Z4M Roadster and the buyer came from Germany because converting it to LHD was still going to be cheaper for him than buying an LHD one in Europe!
Massive hype around the CSL which was slated and not a popular car when released ... its gained popularity for a number of reasons. Having owned one and having a best mate with one, there's no doubt it was a great car ... but IMO overrated. Yes, its better than the standard E46 M3 which you could replicate at a significant cost.
Also, if you want to drive it, the values are so inflated that putting miles on will hit you in the pocket and when its a fun car, is that what you want in he the back of your mind?
I'd be looking at an E92 M3 which are relatively cheap, whether its standard or modified. Dynamically its a much better car ... oh and the S54 vs S65, no competition. The sound of that V8 on full chat makes the CSL sound like a wasp ... yes it needs revving but thats part of the cars character. You don't need to sink a fortune into an E92 M3 in terms of mods to enjoy it ... yes the brakes need upgrading (pads, fluid, hoses will do, BBK really not required unless your out to impress) and many of the suspension components probably need replacing/upgrading due to age. Yes you 'can' spend a fortune creating a GTS replica with a 4.4 conversion from Schirmer but you'd need to be a serious track day nut to throw that sort of money into it.
Also, if you want to drive it, the values are so inflated that putting miles on will hit you in the pocket and when its a fun car, is that what you want in he the back of your mind?
I'd be looking at an E92 M3 which are relatively cheap, whether its standard or modified. Dynamically its a much better car ... oh and the S54 vs S65, no competition. The sound of that V8 on full chat makes the CSL sound like a wasp ... yes it needs revving but thats part of the cars character. You don't need to sink a fortune into an E92 M3 in terms of mods to enjoy it ... yes the brakes need upgrading (pads, fluid, hoses will do, BBK really not required unless your out to impress) and many of the suspension components probably need replacing/upgrading due to age. Yes you 'can' spend a fortune creating a GTS replica with a 4.4 conversion from Schirmer but you'd need to be a serious track day nut to throw that sort of money into it.
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