S63TU failures - M5, M6 & M6 GC
Discussion
So, currently in the market for another car to replace my M140i. Considering one of the above cars, as they all seem absolutely perfect for me on paper, however the amount of failures I'm seeing is a huge concern. I've ran various 'unreliable' performance cars, N54 etc, but I can't really deal with spontaneous engine failure. I absolutely adore these cars beyond belief, but I'm not sure I could cope with the constant "will it randomly die" anxiety?
There seems to be a few issues related to oil starvation from the oil pump on early cars - I believe many failures are being attributed to this though, which aren't actually this problem.
Rod bearings. This seems to be the crux of most seizures from what I've read. I've been over almost every forum and many annoying youtubers videos to look at failures, and rod bearings seem to be the cause most times. Failures from these on the S65/85 seem much less common, despite them having more of a reputation for needing replaced.
Bending rods. Quite a few of these engines which have been rebuilt have been found to have bent conrods. Even more concering this that so many of these engines have just been running on standard power. Tuning these and avoiding bent rods seems impossible? This is a big issue for me with an engine which is so easy to get north of 700bhp. Tuning up an F80 with stock turbos will be almost neck and neck in a rolling race, and no issues with engine death.
Are my fears overblown? Is buying one as Approved Used the only way to sleep soundly? I had a look at the extended warranty if I were to buy one from a normal dealership. The quote was something like £478/month. Which is about the same as the finance on the car!
There seems to be a few issues related to oil starvation from the oil pump on early cars - I believe many failures are being attributed to this though, which aren't actually this problem.
Rod bearings. This seems to be the crux of most seizures from what I've read. I've been over almost every forum and many annoying youtubers videos to look at failures, and rod bearings seem to be the cause most times. Failures from these on the S65/85 seem much less common, despite them having more of a reputation for needing replaced.
Bending rods. Quite a few of these engines which have been rebuilt have been found to have bent conrods. Even more concering this that so many of these engines have just been running on standard power. Tuning these and avoiding bent rods seems impossible? This is a big issue for me with an engine which is so easy to get north of 700bhp. Tuning up an F80 with stock turbos will be almost neck and neck in a rolling race, and no issues with engine death.
Are my fears overblown? Is buying one as Approved Used the only way to sleep soundly? I had a look at the extended warranty if I were to buy one from a normal dealership. The quote was something like £478/month. Which is about the same as the finance on the car!
I suspect some of these issues (e.g. rod bearings) are due to usage (not warming up engine properly) or lack of servicing (especially oil changes) that a 600bhp hot-vee turbo engine needs. Just like with the S65 - if it has been through a few owners you will never know how they have been driven - even with all the service stamps. So yes, either get a BMW warranty and/or a specialist to change the rod bearings to mitigate this particular issue. At nearly £500 per month I would rather get someone to replace all the parts and give it a once over. If it's going to get hard use or track days then budget for some motorsport upgrades e.g. oil coolers.
Edited by fido on Tuesday 1st November 16:15
The BMW insured Warranty is not £450 per month you've made a mistake. Mine is about £850 ish p.a comprehensive with the optional breakdown recovery with a £250 XS. It's a bit more if you pay it monthly as you'd expect, maybe £80 pm??
It covers you up to the cost you paid for the car so I have never worried about this nonsense. Jeepers if you're going to fret all day about what might happen you should stay in bed and not even consider buying anything in case it goes wrong.
It covers you up to the cost you paid for the car so I have never worried about this nonsense. Jeepers if you're going to fret all day about what might happen you should stay in bed and not even consider buying anything in case it goes wrong.
Stever said:
The BMW insured Warranty is not £450 per month you've made a mistake. Mine is about £850 ish p.a comprehensive with the optional breakdown recovery with a £250 XS. It's a bit more if you pay it monthly as you'd expect, maybe £80 pm??
It covers you up to the cost you paid for the car so I have never worried about this nonsense. Jeepers if you're going to fret all day about what might happen you should stay in bed and not even consider buying anything in case it goes wrong.
The insured warranty is only 850pa if you continue a dealer bought warranty. Coming in from scratch or a broken insured period it can indeed hit 400+pm.It covers you up to the cost you paid for the car so I have never worried about this nonsense. Jeepers if you're going to fret all day about what might happen you should stay in bed and not even consider buying anything in case it goes wrong.
bmwmike said:
The insured warranty is only 850pa if you continue a dealer bought warranty. Coming in from scratch or a broken insured period it can indeed hit 400+pm.
That wasn't my experience when I bought mine from an independent dealer out of warranty. It may have been a couple of hundred more so nearer £1,000 def not more than £1100,in the first year then dropped to the £700's if you didn't want the optional breakdown service. It has stayed at the same level for the last 4 years.
Stever said:
bmwmike said:
The insured warranty is only 850pa if you continue a dealer bought warranty. Coming in from scratch or a broken insured period it can indeed hit 400+pm.
That wasn't my experience when I bought mine from an independent dealer out of warranty. It may have been a couple of hundred more so nearer £1,000 def not more than £1100,in the first year then dropped to the £700's if you didn't want the optional breakdown service. It has stayed at the same level for the last 4 years.Stever said:
bmwmike said:
The insured warranty is only 850pa if you continue a dealer bought warranty. Coming in from scratch or a broken insured period it can indeed hit 400+pm.
That wasn't my experience when I bought mine from an independent dealer out of warranty. It may have been a couple of hundred more so nearer £1,000 def not more than £1100,in the first year then dropped to the £700's if you didn't want the optional breakdown service. It has stayed at the same level for the last 4 years.A friend of mine is senior tech at a large dealer group abroad - his speciality is ///M engines from the S54 on...
He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
The BMW warranty gets expensive with mileage - I think over 60K is the tipping point.
I recall getting a renewal quote for my E92 M3 (already under BMW warranty) at over £3000 (this being zero excess and including breakdown etc, but still high even with a £250 excess). I didn't bother and ran it out of warranty.
I recall getting a renewal quote for my E92 M3 (already under BMW warranty) at over £3000 (this being zero excess and including breakdown etc, but still high even with a £250 excess). I didn't bother and ran it out of warranty.
Cheburator mk2 said:
A friend of mine is senior tech at a large dealer group abroad - his speciality is ///M engines from the S54 on...
He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
It's not a particularly impressive engine from a tech or engineering perspective either. Nothing like the s85 for example which has some nice tech both on its running / management and in its design. Then again turbo is basically a blunt instrument for getting power numbers and is arguably an emissions tool than anything else. Turbo engines get the job done for sure, but so does an electric motor. There is no replacement for displacement (and individual throttle pots, etc..)He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
I do wonder if BMW and the other big players cut a lot of corners with the following of the 2008/9 financial crash, and perhaps even flirting with the Ratners approach to building trinkets.
Cheburator mk2 said:
A friend of mine is senior tech at a large dealer group abroad - his speciality is ///M engines from the S54 on...
He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
I really don't get this "I want to buy an M5 and M6 etc but I'm worried about it instantly blowing up" and nonsense like the above just feeds the fire.He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
Oh s
t better pull over at 99,999 miles and run then. 
I didn't realise I'm on borrowed time either as my car is over 8 years old
What a complete and utter load of b
ks, fk me I don't know how some of you get out of bed each day so much bad stuff might happen.If you're that worried about an engine, buy another car the rest of the world's car manufacturers have absolutely faultless history. I think Honda have the best record, get yourself a nice little Accord and you can (probably, still an incy tincy little risk there that it might have been used in Fast and Furious 17) then have worry free motoring for ever.
Why not factor in the cost of a warranty in your man maths (the BMW insured covers up to the cost of the car - even £1,900 isn't £480 per month) and then maybe live a little bit dangerously perhaps???
Stever said:
Cheburator mk2 said:
A friend of mine is senior tech at a large dealer group abroad - his speciality is ///M engines from the S54 on...
He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
I really don't get this "I want to buy an M5 and M6 etc but I'm worried about it instantly blowing up" and nonsense like the above just feeds the fire.He says that the S63 is perhaps one of the weakest engines in terms of engineering integrity that BMW has ever produced. Very sensitive to fuel quality, very sensitive to oil quality and frequency of oil changes. In his opinion, an S63 which has had oil changes as per the BMW prescribed stupidly long intervals, has a far bigger chance of grenading at 100k miles, than an S62, which would just go on forever. Running one without a warranty in his opinion is paramount to financial suicide. He hates the N63/S63 family of engines. One of BMWs low points. Build to last the first 5yrs of the car's life and that's about it...
Oh s
t better pull over at 99,999 miles and run then. I didn't realise I'm on borrowed time either as my car is over 8 years old
What a complete and utter load of b
ks, fk me I don't know how some of you get out of bed each day so much bad stuff might happen.If you're that worried about an engine, buy another car the rest of the world's car manufacturers have absolutely faultless history. I think Honda have the best record, get yourself a nice little Accord and you can (probably, still an incy tincy little risk there that it might have been used in Fast and Furious 17) then have worry free motoring for ever.
Why not factor in the cost of a warranty in your man maths (the BMW insured covers up to the cost of the car - even £1,900 isn't £480 per month) and then maybe live a little bit dangerously perhaps???
There are internet scare stories about all sorts of cars (I had a 997 for 8 years - no issues) but what I never see is what is the probability of failure - is it 1%, 10%, 20%, more?
Another factor I also consider is that my first couple of cars were early 70’s vintage and as a youngster I would drive them as fast as they would go most of the time. These days I am driving my cars at a fraction of their performance capability for 95%+ of the time, so the engine and other components are not exactly being stressed.
My M6 may throw a big bill at some point, but I have now saved 12 years of manufacturer warranty costs between the two BMWs and my 997 and the only claim a warranty would cover in 19 years total ownership of the 3 cars was c£500 which was for the M5 actually whilst it was still in the 3 year new car warranty.
pjv997 said:
Have to agree with this. Been running an M5 and M6GC now for over 10 years, and didn’t extend the warranty on either.
Another factor I also consider is that my first couple of cars were early 70’s vintage and as a youngster I would drive them as fast as they would go most of the time. These days I am driving my cars at a fraction of their performance capability for 95%+ of the time, so the engine and other components are not exactly being stressed.
That's a really good point. There are of course a few knobs on Youtube and sadly mainstream TV who thrash/ smoke a car round a car park (I think the three twits on TopGear don't help with their childish antics) and those are the cars that are going to give trouble and hit the headlines. I've done 30,000 miles in my M6GC and the only thing I've had go wrong is a leaking diff seal. It's really unhelpful to sellers and buyers when emotive words like "grenade at 100K miles and 5 years life" are put up from "I've got a friend who works abroad (where?? could be in the Middle East, Japan Outer mongolia) who cares it''s not here.Another factor I also consider is that my first couple of cars were early 70’s vintage and as a youngster I would drive them as fast as they would go most of the time. These days I am driving my cars at a fraction of their performance capability for 95%+ of the time, so the engine and other components are not exactly being stressed.
My car is warmed up and warmed down properly, loved and treated with the respect deserved when your hard earned cash is invested. Just the way the Top Gear twits shut doors and boots/ bonnets says it all, zero respect. I have never even used launch Control and have zero desire to do so, my own feet are good enough!
Stever said:
I really don't get this "I want to buy an M5 and M6 etc but I'm worried about it instantly blowing up" and nonsense like the above just feeds the fire.
Oh st better pull over at 99,999 miles and run then.
I didn't realise I'm on borrowed time either as my car is over 8 years old
What a complete and utter load of bks, fk me I don't know how some of you get out of bed each day so much bad stuff might happen.
If you're that worried about an engine, buy another car the rest of the world's car manufacturers have absolutely faultless history. I think Honda have the best record, get yourself a nice little Accord and you can (probably, still an incy tincy little risk there that it might have been used in Fast and Furious 17) then have worry free motoring for ever.
Why not factor in the cost of a warranty in your man maths (the BMW insured covers up to the cost of the car - even £1,900 isn't £480 per month) and then maybe live a little bit dangerously perhaps???
Hello billy big bOh s
t better pull over at 99,999 miles and run then. I didn't realise I'm on borrowed time either as my car is over 8 years old
What a complete and utter load of b
ks, fk me I don't know how some of you get out of bed each day so much bad stuff might happen.If you're that worried about an engine, buy another car the rest of the world's car manufacturers have absolutely faultless history. I think Honda have the best record, get yourself a nice little Accord and you can (probably, still an incy tincy little risk there that it might have been used in Fast and Furious 17) then have worry free motoring for ever.
Why not factor in the cost of a warranty in your man maths (the BMW insured covers up to the cost of the car - even £1,900 isn't £480 per month) and then maybe live a little bit dangerously perhaps???
ks and Mr Risk taker 
I guess I am one of the unlucky ones - my car has thrown about £25k worth of warranty work in the last 3 years. It’s easily the most unreliable piece of junk that I have ever owned. And that’s a one former owner car bought from BMW as AUC with 30k on the clock. Here is a little list for you:
Transfer box
Injectors
High pressure fuel pumps
Turbos
Front suspension arms
Valvetronic
Heater valves
Various active suspension bits
But yes, the N63 and the S63 are brilliant engines… Yep…
I am not trying to scare anyone, just stating facts. My mate works on these cars for a living. Every car has a weak spot. It just happens that the previous Gen M5/6/X - it was the most important bit - the engine… And yes, I do know a thing or two about engines and the N63/S63 family is definitely not BMW’s high point…
P.S. The main reason I haven’t moved on the School bus at 78k is that’s it’s practically new thanks to the BMW warranty
As with all cars buy the best example you can afford.
My personal opinion would be to stay clear of anything that's been modified or tuned and loon for one that's had regular oil services.
Yes the s63 can throw some big bills, but usually you'll find that a culmination of poor ownership, whether that's overdue oil services or running poor fuel etc.
Rod bearings get a lot of heat all over from people however they're a serviceable part that will always see wear eventually, sometimes it's premature due to how the cars been treated but 9/10 they're going to need doing on most cars especially high performance models.
The next issue rearing its head is injectors, again I'd put this down to running 95 instead of high octane and the fuel system inhibiting build up within itself.
So my choices would be factor in a higher purchase price for an AUC car or when looking at cheaper cars factor in that you will pay for bearings and injectors as part of preventative maintenance.
My personal opinion would be to stay clear of anything that's been modified or tuned and loon for one that's had regular oil services.
Yes the s63 can throw some big bills, but usually you'll find that a culmination of poor ownership, whether that's overdue oil services or running poor fuel etc.
Rod bearings get a lot of heat all over from people however they're a serviceable part that will always see wear eventually, sometimes it's premature due to how the cars been treated but 9/10 they're going to need doing on most cars especially high performance models.
The next issue rearing its head is injectors, again I'd put this down to running 95 instead of high octane and the fuel system inhibiting build up within itself.
So my choices would be factor in a higher purchase price for an AUC car or when looking at cheaper cars factor in that you will pay for bearings and injectors as part of preventative maintenance.
village24 said:
As with all cars buy the best example you can afford.
My personal opinion would be to stay clear of anything that's been modified or tuned and loon for one that's had regular oil services.
Yes the s63 can throw some big bills, but usually you'll find that a culmination of poor ownership, whether that's overdue oil services or running poor fuel etc.
Rod bearings get a lot of heat all over from people however they're a serviceable part that will always see wear eventually, sometimes it's premature due to how the cars been treated but 9/10 they're going to need doing on most cars especially high performance models.
The next issue rearing its head is injectors, again I'd put this down to running 95 instead of high octane and the fuel system inhibiting build up within itself.
So my choices would be factor in a higher purchase price for an AUC car or when looking at cheaper cars factor in that you will pay for bearings and injectors as part of preventative maintenance.
This is all sensible advice...My personal opinion would be to stay clear of anything that's been modified or tuned and loon for one that's had regular oil services.
Yes the s63 can throw some big bills, but usually you'll find that a culmination of poor ownership, whether that's overdue oil services or running poor fuel etc.
Rod bearings get a lot of heat all over from people however they're a serviceable part that will always see wear eventually, sometimes it's premature due to how the cars been treated but 9/10 they're going to need doing on most cars especially high performance models.
The next issue rearing its head is injectors, again I'd put this down to running 95 instead of high octane and the fuel system inhibiting build up within itself.
So my choices would be factor in a higher purchase price for an AUC car or when looking at cheaper cars factor in that you will pay for bearings and injectors as part of preventative maintenance.
... which I followed myself ... by buying a one owner - a Doctor based in Chelsea - oh the irony! BMW AUC with low miles and about £33k worth of options...
...and here I am, thanking my lucky stars for the AUC Warranty and the fact that I extended it when it expired.
Frankly there are some shocking engineering decisions on the N63/S63...
1) Plastic vaccum and breather hoses. It's a hot V, under bonnet temps are a lot higher than normal... Why use plastic, which may be fine at 2 yrs old, but turns into a brittle mess by year 7?
2) Turbo oil supply routing - the shape of the oil lines is sub optimal, add extended oil change intervals, and you will have the perfect conditions for tar formation which blocks the metal lines, eventually killing the hot side of the turbos. It happens particularly in cars which sit in traffic and have the stop/start function active.
3) Injectors - a badly failing one would lead to bore scoring or rod bending
4) High pressure pumps - enough said
5) Crank shaft chain drive sprocket made of cheese
A few of these problems maybe are avoidable with frequent oil changes and using quality fuel. But unless you know how the previous owners have treated it, you are into the unknown. So, yes, it may read like scaremongering, but it's not. It's about being sensible. I know someone with an E46 M3 which did 190k before it had the bearings done. And they were actually OK. On the other hand, I did mine at at 110k miles, and I have owned the car since it was three months old in 2001. And mine definitely needed doing...
It's an engine build to cost spec
There is an interesting comparison on YT of the S63TU and the s85 and one of the points highlighted is the 80 odd rubber and plastic pipes around the S63TU vs a much smaller number around the s85.
It would be interesting to compare the S63TU in a 2012 ish m5 and a 2020 (f90?) M5 and see what improvements they've made as I understand the basic engine is similar but lots of incremental changes around oil supply and cooling.
It would be interesting to compare the S63TU in a 2012 ish m5 and a 2020 (f90?) M5 and see what improvements they've made as I understand the basic engine is similar but lots of incremental changes around oil supply and cooling.
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