Issues at work - pregnancy/miscarriage related
Discussion
This is going to be a long and tumultuous post - apologies.
I need to seek some advice. I've contacted a local employment law specialist but I just can't afford it.
My wife works in the technical offices of a manufacturing business that create very high end products.
Last April we suffered from a late miscarriage at 20wks and 6days. Full natural birth, just too early. Waters broke.
She was then signed off sick for baby bereavement. I'm not sure of this is classed as a pregnancy related illness or not. I'm struggling to find any guidelines. It hit pretty hard. I don't know if anyone has seen a 21wk baby but they're full and complete (fingernails and toenails and everything), just small and pink - about the size of a ladies size 5 shoe)
My wife went back to work. She works for a chap who has zero social skills and absolutely no empathy. He's made a lot of comments over the past 12months that are totally unacceptable and has upset my wife quite a lot.
A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".
She was refused a companion in the hearing (which I think is illegal). The result of the hearing was that "nothing could be upheld". In the grievance she requested the outcome to be to work directly for another manager. This was also refused as "he has to be your manager". I think he was probably given a verbal warning about his comments but other than that i think it was swept under the carpet.
About 8-9 weeks ago we find out shes pregnant again. Given what happened last time she's being careful about heavy lifting, not doing too much.
She's been suffering from bad morning sickness. She's requested multiple times if she can work from home on the days she's feeling really rough. Theres no real reason she can't WFH, I'd say 75% of her job could be done remotely and it can be staggered so that the workload would suit. This has been refused on a basis of "no WFH policy". Fine.
There has been a few days where if she's been violently sick multiple times and has had migraines/headaches (another pregnancy related issue) she hasn't gone into work.
At her work the sickness/welfare policy rolls on a 12m basis.
The policy basically reads:
If you've been off sick on three separate occasions in the last 12months you get a verbal
If you've been off sick on four or more separate occasions you get a formal hearing.
Now she's received a letter from HR that there will be a formal welfare hearing because she's been off on 5 different occasions within the last 12m, totalling 19days.
The five occasions are:
June 2023 (bereavement of baby) 12days
August 2023 (migraine) - this one is fair enough IMO 1day
April/May 2024 - doctors orders to take rest for pregnancy related concerns/issues (4days)
June 2024 - migraine/headache (probably pregnancy related as they are linked, but not 100%) 1day
June 2024 - I had a trip to A&E and we didn't get home till 4am. So this is "care of a dependant". They've put this down as unauthorised absence. 1day
It feels to me like this is her boss trying to get back at her for complaining about his behaviour.
Shes convinced they're trying to get rid of her, and it does seem like it. It's hard in meetings too because it's such a sensitive and emotional topic she gets upset, goes quiet and cries, people talk over her and she can't get her point across as she's branded "emotional" - no s
t.
If you've made it this far, well done. Thanks for reading and I welcome any advice/words of wisdom.
Suggestions that include slashing tyres/cutting brake lines/burning down houses welcomed but will not be actioned.
I need to seek some advice. I've contacted a local employment law specialist but I just can't afford it.
My wife works in the technical offices of a manufacturing business that create very high end products.
Last April we suffered from a late miscarriage at 20wks and 6days. Full natural birth, just too early. Waters broke.
She was then signed off sick for baby bereavement. I'm not sure of this is classed as a pregnancy related illness or not. I'm struggling to find any guidelines. It hit pretty hard. I don't know if anyone has seen a 21wk baby but they're full and complete (fingernails and toenails and everything), just small and pink - about the size of a ladies size 5 shoe)
My wife went back to work. She works for a chap who has zero social skills and absolutely no empathy. He's made a lot of comments over the past 12months that are totally unacceptable and has upset my wife quite a lot.
A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".
She was refused a companion in the hearing (which I think is illegal). The result of the hearing was that "nothing could be upheld". In the grievance she requested the outcome to be to work directly for another manager. This was also refused as "he has to be your manager". I think he was probably given a verbal warning about his comments but other than that i think it was swept under the carpet.
About 8-9 weeks ago we find out shes pregnant again. Given what happened last time she's being careful about heavy lifting, not doing too much.
She's been suffering from bad morning sickness. She's requested multiple times if she can work from home on the days she's feeling really rough. Theres no real reason she can't WFH, I'd say 75% of her job could be done remotely and it can be staggered so that the workload would suit. This has been refused on a basis of "no WFH policy". Fine.
There has been a few days where if she's been violently sick multiple times and has had migraines/headaches (another pregnancy related issue) she hasn't gone into work.
At her work the sickness/welfare policy rolls on a 12m basis.
The policy basically reads:
If you've been off sick on three separate occasions in the last 12months you get a verbal
If you've been off sick on four or more separate occasions you get a formal hearing.
Now she's received a letter from HR that there will be a formal welfare hearing because she's been off on 5 different occasions within the last 12m, totalling 19days.
The five occasions are:
June 2023 (bereavement of baby) 12days
August 2023 (migraine) - this one is fair enough IMO 1day
April/May 2024 - doctors orders to take rest for pregnancy related concerns/issues (4days)
June 2024 - migraine/headache (probably pregnancy related as they are linked, but not 100%) 1day
June 2024 - I had a trip to A&E and we didn't get home till 4am. So this is "care of a dependant". They've put this down as unauthorised absence. 1day
It feels to me like this is her boss trying to get back at her for complaining about his behaviour.
Shes convinced they're trying to get rid of her, and it does seem like it. It's hard in meetings too because it's such a sensitive and emotional topic she gets upset, goes quiet and cries, people talk over her and she can't get her point across as she's branded "emotional" - no s
t.If you've made it this far, well done. Thanks for reading and I welcome any advice/words of wisdom.
Suggestions that include slashing tyres/cutting brake lines/burning down houses welcomed but will not be actioned.
Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 16:34
Scrump said:
Sorry for your loss but pleasing to hear that your wife is pregnant again.
It is awful that in this day and age there are people and companies who behave in such a manner.
I had to engage some employment law help to advise my wife over a workplace issue, it was not cheap but worth it.
I hope you get the advice and support you need.
Thankyou. It is awful that in this day and age there are people and companies who behave in such a manner.
I had to engage some employment law help to advise my wife over a workplace issue, it was not cheap but worth it.
I hope you get the advice and support you need.
The employment law specialist I contacted was £350/HR +VAT and suggested an initial sit down/review of all documents was 5-6hrs as a "kick off"
CheesecakeRunner said:
I hope this pregnancy goes well for you, best wishes.
Thankyou. It's a very stressful time and we really can't go through it again. I will say the NHS has been absolutely excellent throughout and we've had two early reassurance scans already. The proper dating scan is this week.
The last thing we need is to worry about this as well!
Oh yeah. The other thing they've done is advertised her job too - which seems a bit keen given that we're only at 12wks. It's not listed as maternity cover, but "temporary contract".
Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 17:00
Mortarboard said:
Assuming it's the uk, start here:
https://www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-righ...
Main concern (at this stage, and an assumption) is "reasonable accomodation" for health conditions (includes morning sickness).
What has her H&S rep said?
M.
I'm not sure about a H&S rep as she's in the offices. They're seen as soft mouse pushers by the rest of the factory.https://www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-righ...
Main concern (at this stage, and an assumption) is "reasonable accomodation" for health conditions (includes morning sickness).
What has her H&S rep said?
M.
They have made some changes though as a few people used to use a very smelly contact adhesive in the offices (to test out pre production samples and prototypes) and theyve been told not to and to use a separate area of the factory by the area manager (not her direct boss).
Panamax said:
Pay it if you can. This is important stuff and you want to get it right. Engaging a specialist can transmit a clear "keep off the grass" message to an employer.
It really shouldn't take 6 hours to get initial guidance so long as you have everything carefully written down and summarised before you start. A clear history of workplace events and health matters with precise names, dates etc.
As regards your unfortunate stillborn, yes, that's exactly why IMO the cut-off date for most terminations should be reduced from 24 weeks to somewhere around 20 weeks.
I agree. I'll start to put together a timeline including dates, names and letters etc. It really shouldn't take 6 hours to get initial guidance so long as you have everything carefully written down and summarised before you start. A clear history of workplace events and health matters with precise names, dates etc.
As regards your unfortunate stillborn, yes, that's exactly why IMO the cut-off date for most terminations should be reduced from 24 weeks to somewhere around 20 weeks.
Unless there's a severe health issue/risk I think even 20wks for a termination is a touch late. At 24wks you have a "viable baby" - IE, one that could survive outside the womb (albeit incredibly premature and likely with some issues)
Anyone who says a baby isn't a baby until it's born is crackers IMO. I have seen and held my daughter and have photos that would suggest otherwise.
Mortarboard said:
That may be, but that's the route to take for H&S issues. It'll be the first thing that comes up at tribunal. 
For a start, does your wife have a copy of her (specific, not generic) pregnancy risk assessment? This is a legal requirement.
Nope - don't think this has been done. If it has, then it's news to either of us! For a start, does your wife have a copy of her (specific, not generic) pregnancy risk assessment? This is a legal requirement.
Mortarboard said:
Also, how likely is she to continue working there? If the relationship is already soured, and she's looking to move on, there's other options under H&S.
Feels very strained. She's trying her best just to get through to maternity leave.Mortarboard said:
Big or small company? Small ones often aren't really aware of their requirements.
Relatively small company. Maybe 80 people. They're owned by huge multinational high fashion brand though. MrSmith901 said:
Shocking behaviour from your wife's boss and the company in general. I'm not sure I'd even try and defend it and say something about old fashioned attitudes, it's just general human decency that is lacking here.
Her boss is a year or two younger than she is. He's in his early 30s. He's a horrible person. Only ever had one "real" job. Went straight from uni into the company and has been there for 11years I think. Everyone seems to love him and thinks the sun shines out his arse.Panamax said:
chewie2606 said:
If your wife a member of a Union? If yes they should be all over this, if not research and join the most appropriate one for her trade.
Yes, I almost made this point in my earlier post but let it go.
RSTurboPaul said:
I am very sorry to hear of your loss and the current situation. It is good that you both had a chance to spend some time with your daughter. Those moments are far too short but will be with you both for the rest of your life. It is amazing how perfectly formed they are at that age.
Speak to Sands if you have not done so already. They may or may not be able to offer any advice regarding the work situation but are specialists in support for those dealing with such a bereavement, including both you and your wife and also any other family members. There is unfortunately a considerable number of people who have gone through what you both have so don't be afraid to seek out help.
It can be difficult to plan ahead when you are uncertain of outcomes, but look at picking up an Owlet Smart Sock and tucking it away - if all goes to plan (everything crossed) then the smart sock adds a layer of reassurance and can help you sleep better.
Make sure you print and distribute copies of all the photos!
Thanks, SANDS and the NHS midwifery bereavement team have been absolutely excellent. Our local NHS trust has won various awards and has been recognised for it's excellence, and I can absolutely see why.Speak to Sands if you have not done so already. They may or may not be able to offer any advice regarding the work situation but are specialists in support for those dealing with such a bereavement, including both you and your wife and also any other family members. There is unfortunately a considerable number of people who have gone through what you both have so don't be afraid to seek out help.
It can be difficult to plan ahead when you are uncertain of outcomes, but look at picking up an Owlet Smart Sock and tucking it away - if all goes to plan (everything crossed) then the smart sock adds a layer of reassurance and can help you sleep better.
Make sure you print and distribute copies of all the photos!
They haven't really offered anything up in terms of recent work relations, but it might be worth an ask. My wife is still having specialist bereavement counselling. I think it's once a month or 6wks, mainly just to "check in" and see how she's getting on really. I might suggest she brings it up at her next meeting.
And you're right, there are an alarmingly high number of miscarriages, still births and cot deaths. I think overall 1in4 pregnancies have "issues". After 20wks that goes to something like 1in100. The docs/specialists said there's no rhyme or reason. Bad things just happen sometimes. That's hard to come to terms with as she's constantly thinking "was it this/that?", "what did I do?", "could I have done something different?"
I have never heard of an Owlet smart sock so will investigate - thankyou.
Edited by Ambleton on Thursday 13th June 06:45
Nezquick said:
At the very least, i'd be asking her GP to sign her off with "stress" for the foreseeable future, lodge a formal grievance with HR setting out the full facts, and make some noises about the Equality Act, Constructive Dismissal and that you are seeking legal advice and will be in touch.
All of this was set out and mentioned in the previous grievance submitted in March. (Although this was before the existing current pregnancy). In the hearing she requested a female colleague/pal to be present and this was refused because "this is only an informal chat" (this was the only meeting where they actually spoke/listened to her directly). Later they decided it was a formal complaint. There was then a discussion with said manager and then there was another meeting chaired by the quality manager which she wasn't invited to or privvy to.
After that meeting a letter was sent to her stating "none of the points of the grievance letter could be upheld and the matter was now considered closed".
She appealed this but then later withdrew as her bosses boss had assured her it had been dealt with and the letter was just a formality.
It all absolutely stinks.
It's so hard.
Ultimately she's the one that has to go into work every day and deal with it and he's a very popular staff member - god only knows why.
At any of the places I've worked at he'd be marched off the premises and told not to return and/or suspended without paying pending review.
Car possibly, house no.
Today's update:
They want to see all letters/proof of antenatal appointments and have said they will allow her to leave one hour before and no sooner.
I don't think that's particularly unreasonable but it's just another thing that shows a bit of a power hungry regime.
Today's update:
They want to see all letters/proof of antenatal appointments and have said they will allow her to leave one hour before and no sooner.
I don't think that's particularly unreasonable but it's just another thing that shows a bit of a power hungry regime.
loskie said:
I don't think this has been asked but has this been escalated WELL above your wife's manager's head to DIRECTOR level. They should be ashamed of their management and may be unaware of his behaviour.
I believe its gone as far as site manager. It no excuse, but the difficulty with the kind of place she works is because it a highly skilled job there are lots of generational workers.
You know the kind of place where brothers, cousins, uncles all leave school at 14 straight into work so you end up with essentially an untouchable workforce because they'll only train family members and they all band together? It's not quite "that bad" but it certainly has a strong whiff of it.
vaud said:
Ambleton said:
A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".
Jesus christ.He was watching some tiktok videos on break one day in February and proudly turned his phone around to show my wife saying "this guy's fit - he'd get you pregnant".
The temptation to go "scorched earth" on this scumbag is really hard to resist.
vaud said:
I'm no alpha male and always seek diplomatic routes, etc. My wife was recently sexually assaulted at a work event and it took a lot of restraint to keep focused on helping my wife with the police reports, work reports etc rather than a more direct action on my part (the accused is a frigging solicitor of all things)
Oh man. Sorry to hear that. I hope things are getting sorted.There seems to be no shortage of t
ts in this world. We could do with a good clearout IMO but going round ending people is frowned upon 
No need for anyone to apologise or get fired up - it's a highly emotionally charged topic.
There's been times where I've been seething, flummoxed and frankly amazed at the stupidity of her boss. Tbh I've laughed out loud in disbelief at some of the things he's done/said.
Actually he did an absolute shocker of a "prank" on another ex-colleague last week.
There's been times where I've been seething, flummoxed and frankly amazed at the stupidity of her boss. Tbh I've laughed out loud in disbelief at some of the things he's done/said.
Actually he did an absolute shocker of a "prank" on another ex-colleague last week.
C5_Steve said:
Loads of really helpful stuff.
Any help with preparing a response for ACAS or for a hearing I'm happy to offer my view or help draft something.
Thankyou. Any help with preparing a response for ACAS or for a hearing I'm happy to offer my view or help draft something.
My first job is to put together a timeline of everything with all documents, emails, letters, policies, employee handbook etc.
Once I've got it all together and made some initial contact I might be in touch.
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