Discussion
Depends on how long they worked for their previous company.
A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
Not sure if the PhD is that relevant tbh.
I've worked with some great engineers with PhD's but even greater engineers with 2:1's. Ordinarily, if the PhD is not directly related to the job then a PhD can be seen as 4 years less experience.
An engineer with 10 years is like 'how long is a piece of string' though. What does this chap do and how good is he at his job ? Has he progressed in the past 10 years or does he look to have stagnated ?
I would say a decent static stress engineer with 10 years and in a lead role would be earning £45k but stress earns more than design in aerospace (from my experience anyway). F&DT engineers can earn more though so is difficult to answer without knowing more.
I've worked with some great engineers with PhD's but even greater engineers with 2:1's. Ordinarily, if the PhD is not directly related to the job then a PhD can be seen as 4 years less experience.
An engineer with 10 years is like 'how long is a piece of string' though. What does this chap do and how good is he at his job ? Has he progressed in the past 10 years or does he look to have stagnated ?
I would say a decent static stress engineer with 10 years and in a lead role would be earning £45k but stress earns more than design in aerospace (from my experience anyway). F&DT engineers can earn more though so is difficult to answer without knowing more.
GSP said:
Depends on how long they worked for their previous company.
A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
Slightly off topic, but with regard to your last comment... I am worried about this myself. Good point!A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
Barbarossa said:
I think I need to recalibrate!
I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
I think you do need to recalibrate!I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
I think engineers in general in the UK arent paid as much as you might expect some one of that calibre to be paid. Im a graduate engineer, currently doing a PhD because I see it as a way to boost my future income (somethin I noted at the last company I worked at and all the smaller engineering business owners Ive met was that the majority held PhD's...though obviously its not a golden ticket).
But while I was out there in the working world, the starting salaries were average at best and providing you didnt end up in a middle managment job you could look forward to pretty much doing the same job for the rest of your life for a measly 3% pay uplift per year. Some people I wokred with have literally done just that and I personally cannot get my head around being content with that. My goal is to be on way more than £30k before I was 30 and where I was working, that wasnt going to happen.
Thats just how it is, you can spend 5 yeas getting a MEng and then a further 4-5 years getting your Chartership (CEng) and you'll still earnless than the party boys you met at uni who were doing finance or economics for 3 years. I know a man, old man now, who is an expert in plasma technology. Very important for things like the JET Nuclear Fusion program (fusion will solve our energy problems). I would say thats a great achievement and it is... but despite being chartered and a Dr of engineering and having several books he lives a meagre existence. His son landed a ship/boat brokering job a few years ago and has already made more money than his dad ever did and ever will. I think thats quite a sad state of affairs... but thats how the market is. Another classic case is my best friends sister. Bummed around doing politics for 3 years. Got a 2.1 and applied straight to a bank in London. She's been able to work abroad in Japan and currently earns close to 100k and shes only just turned 30. Me and her brother wont even be chartered engineers by 30 and we'll likely never earn 100k/yr ever.
There are likely many reasons for this. One is attitude. A lot of engineers are very conservative, quiet people, they tend to just accept their lot and get on with it. This attitude also makes them a bit crap socially and in turn a poor manager and of course if you just sit around waiting for something good to happen.... well it aint gonna.
Another is probably because engineering in the UK is a bit dead. Yes British engineering can lay claim to some very clever and astonishing feats of design and it seems to be highly regarded around the world... but actually in this country engineering isnt the bread winner it once was and isnt as prominent a part of the GDP as it is in say Germany or France (Germanys manufacturing and engineering is one of the reasons they weathered the economic storm so well... they had well engineered products to sell. Whereas the UK relied solely on virtual numbers floating around a stock exchange)
Another might be the status and respect engineers garner. It was once said that the most famous engineer in the UK was a character called Kevin Webster. Yes the car mechanic off of Coronation Street. If I had a pound for the number of people who thought I was a mechanic I wouldnt of needed to do a degree in the first place. Theres just a general ignorance among the public as to what proper engineers do. Part of the reason for that is fact that being a proper degree certified engineer isnt a protected status. For example, I cannot go round telling people I am a Lawyer or a Medical Pracrtitioner and start my own business. They are protected job titles, you need to show proof that you are certified. In engineering, anyone can buy a white van, slap engineer on the side and go round doing DIY jobs and thats perfectly legal. The man who comes to fix your boiler is apparently an engineer. the man who comes to fix the vending machine is an engineer. The man who spent a fe weeks learning how to fix hotpoint washing machines is an engineer....apparently if you can follow insructions and replace broken parts you can be called an engineer and that devalues all those who slaved away actually getting a proper degree for it. In Germany engineer is a protected status and they are highly respected in society and their wages reflect that.
I agree with moving about regulalry... however the problem is, its not always seen as a good thing to engineering firms. Engineering firms can be very slow places to progress... it can take literally your whole career to become expert. Lots of engineering contracts often last many years and some one who flitted about different jobs every 2 years might come across as being a bit un-dependable.
My plan is to move to Australia for the simple reason that in the same amount of time I can be earning double or even triple what I can in the UK. Esepcially if I join the oil & gas or mining industry.
And while Im here i just want to say it takes far to long to become chartered in engineering. In accounting its like 3 year degree + 2 years of training/tests/reports and then you're away up the ladder earning good money for shuffling numbers. In engineering you need to have an MEng first (at least 4 years) then it takes a further 4-5 years of reports and interviews to become chartered. And then when you are chartered it means very little to most people anyway. Its one of those things you get made to feel that you have to have, yet when it comes down to it no ones bothered and they'd rather not pay the brilliant 1st class CEng guy £25k and instead get a 2.1 BEng person who'll do the same job for £22k and will do that job indefinately at less cost to the company.
They say in the news that engineers are sought after in this country.... but no one seems to be willing to pay for them.
If you want to earn lots of money doing engineering you need to have your own business, become a manager, move to another country or forge a career in the financial services. Im considering two of those options.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 5th May 10:43
Barbarossa said:
I think I need to recalibrate!
I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
low £30KI've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
but anything between 27K and 35K. With a few on high 30s.
It really is a sad situation.
NST
NST said:
low £30K
but anything between 27K and 35K. With a few on high 30s.
It really is a sad situation.
NST
Isn't it just. Its not like engineering is a cop out career choice either. It's a lot of hard work for the degree and then a long time before the usually conservative companies will let you do anything worth while. Meanwhile I have business student friends running their own little finance projects, driving company cars and enjoying nice little bonuses only a few years out of uni. but anything between 27K and 35K. With a few on high 30s.
It really is a sad situation.
NST
Where I worked you could of gotten a 500 pound bonus for becoming chartered. But not a salary increase despite the now proven extra level of competency. That bonus was taxable so you would of seen little of it and you were handcuffed into becoming a mentor for the next lot of grads. That was just a bum deal IMO.
If you can't tell I'm really annoyed with myself for choosing engineering. I loved it when I first started and I do still at times. But you know, in the real world love doesn't pay the bills and actual engineering companies seem to be as staid and boring as anything. So I say why not get a job were you are at least being paid handsomely to be bored staring at spreadsheets?
It is a very sad state of affairs. I did a BEng and an MSc both in Mech Eng but rejected the oportunity to start a PhD and took up a job offer to work in a bank in the city (8 years ago now). I earn 4 or 5 times as much as my old uni friends yet I'm the one kicking back in cushy office making up numbers and they're the ones doing productive work. All of them are as clever and as smart as I am and most of them are chartered yet they earn just enough to get by. We really should be ashamed of the way this country has destroyed and devalued engineering as both a profession and an industry.
Ever read liars poker? It's a brilliant book. It is basically the story of why our economies are as they are.
One of the best bits is when he describes how Goldman, desperate to get hold of Solomon traders, ended up signing some back room clerk who knew nothing to come and be a bond trader for $2m. They had to honour it too.
PhD's are a wierd thing to have, it can either help you or hinder you depending on where you decide to go. Me personally I see it as something that will open more doors than it closes. Plus I really just wanted to have one. Doing what I want rather than what Others think I should be doing.
Voicey...
How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
One of the best bits is when he describes how Goldman, desperate to get hold of Solomon traders, ended up signing some back room clerk who knew nothing to come and be a bond trader for $2m. They had to honour it too.
PhD's are a wierd thing to have, it can either help you or hinder you depending on where you decide to go. Me personally I see it as something that will open more doors than it closes. Plus I really just wanted to have one. Doing what I want rather than what Others think I should be doing.
Voicey...
How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
Otispunkmeyer said:
How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
It's not uncommon to give up your youth to it. Friends in more "normal" jobs sometimes play golf after work, go to the cinema, or just hang out with other friends. Through my 20s, and 30s, I worked. 12 hour days, in the good years, no breaks, no lunch hours, and definitely no thoughts of doing other things after work.It's worth asking, what cost do you put on that.
It's one of the reasons that I have so little time for people who object to my wage. I've put in the groundwork, I've given the best years of my life in exchange for the chance (and it is a chance, not a certainty) to earn riches, and I'm not going to take too seriously someone who looks at only one side of that equation and demands that it be taxed to buggery in the name of "fairness".
Has it been the right decision? That's very hard to say. Probably it has, but there have been times in the past where the sacrifices looked like madness compared to a job driving a taxi, cutting grass, or writing software.
Barbarossa said:
I think I need to recalibrate!
I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
Okay, If I may.I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
Recently in 2009 I was made redundant from an Engineering company called Trelleborg Offshore in Skelmersdale, where as a Chartered Manufacturing Engineer with 20 years experience, and CATAPILLAR certified 6 sigma black belt in an improvement role, none management I was earning £35K including my bonus.
I'm contracting as a ltd company contractor and I now earn £7675 pa, but I'm working at a major east midlands aerospace company.
The graduate scheme has 2 intake levels one at £25k and the other at £30K and both have a golden hello. My best man works in an Improvement Role, in another building, where he earns £55K as what I've described as a Manufacturing Engineering Team Leader, but what he describes as a middle management position (NO CAR)
He has the same degree and is Chartered also.
Recently I was asked to consider a permanent job and asked what salary I'd need to make it worth my while. I said £68K Which my potential future boss said was almost what he was on and he probabally couldn't organise that. He's chief of quality and improvement in what I'd call a sub division, and gets a car. He's a fellow of the royal something aerospace.
The main issue with engineers is that they are problem solvers. Give us s
t all to live on, but interesting work, and we'll solve the problem by spending less, by careful budgetting and fixing our own stty cars, and cycling to work and going on camping holidays. The problem should be solved by making ourselves so valuable that they desperately need us, and gaining skills that are in demand, but instead we undervalue ourselves and take what little we are offered. We accept jobs with lots of unpaid overtime and do lots of it
Quite frankly I've started to think somewhat differently since I've been contracting. If the man selling burgers on the corner owns 7 houses to rent, in addition to the massive cash turnover, and yet he has no formal qualifications who is the fool ?
Mr POD said:
I'm contracting as a ltd company contractor and I now earn £7675 pa, but I'd go perm for £68K pa
The rest of my fee, is divided between tax deductable expences, pension, accountant and other costs, and some small profit which I pay tax on and leave in the business to cover dry periods. GSP said:
Depends on how long they worked for their previous company.
A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
Same here, but in financial services IT. Still working my notice and it's costing me a grand a month!A graduate engineer in one company for 10 years working their way upto a senior engineer will be earning (generally) a lot less than someone who had swapped companies a few times in the same period.
I've been a victim of this myself. My salary doubled when I last changed jobs simply because my previous employer always treated me as a graduate.
NorthernBoy said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
It's not uncommon to give up your youth to it. Friends in more "normal" jobs sometimes play golf after work, go to the cinema, or just hang out with other friends. Through my 20s, and 30s, I worked. 12 hour days, in the good years, no breaks, no lunch hours, and definitely no thoughts of doing other things after work.It's worth asking, what cost do you put on that.
It's one of the reasons that I have so little time for people who object to my wage. I've put in the groundwork, I've given the best years of my life in exchange for the chance (and it is a chance, not a certainty) to earn riches, and I'm not going to take too seriously someone who looks at only one side of that equation and demands that it be taxed to buggery in the name of "fairness".
Has it been the right decision? That's very hard to say. Probably it has, but there have been times in the past where the sacrifices looked like madness compared to a job driving a taxi, cutting grass, or writing software.
Otispunkmeyer said:
Voicey...
How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
It's OK. I've done a long stint on the trading floor and now manage a large team in our middle office - I no longer work the mega long hours and have people to do the hard graft for me. The money is great and has allowed me to fuflil many a motoring dream. Now I have a young family I doubt I'll ever leave this industry unless I find something that pays so well for doing so little...How is working in the city? I suppose it depends what you do exactly but I've heard and read some horror stories of stress and working hours... I mean it's nice for the million + bonuses but sometimes it sounds like it's at the detriment to quality of life. I assume there are some more slow paced jobs that have more regular hours where you can enjoy it and still make fair coin.
voicey said:
It's OK. I've done a long stint on the trading floor and now manage a large team in our middle office - I no longer work the mega long hours and have people to do the hard graft for me. The money is great and has allowed me to fulfil many a motoring dream. Now I have a young family I doubt I'll ever leave this industry unless I find something that pays so well for doing so little...
Ahh motoring dreams.... I have manyAt the moment and to be honest the foreseeable future I won’t even be able to afford to buy, keep and run one of my favourite cars. A bright orange Focus ST. A good one is anywhere between 10-15k, the insurance is absolutely diabolical and so is the tax. It’s not the most economical car either so I'd struggle to fuel it.
I know life is a series of compromises, but sometimes I feel I've worked just too hard to be in a situation where its have a decent car or have the heating on, some decent food and maybe making your house more liveable. Is it wrong to feel I shouldn’t have to do that?
I am somewhat lucky though. My girlfriends dad is one of those from the old school days, left school at 16 and just seemed to find himself in the right space at the right time. He started as a project manager for Cable & Wireless in the Caribbean and from there he’s become a CEO and now Chairman of the board for a European satellite company. He's 70 and semi retired, hence chairman, but every time they call him back for a directors meeting they throw some serious coin at him). He's also very generous towards his daughter and because we couldn’t get a mortgage (not even a small one of < 40k) he basically bought the flat we live in, cash, 100k and we pay him like we would pay a mortgage.
Its a nice setup because theres no pressure!
Barbarossa said:
I think I need to recalibrate!
I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
No more than 35k in Aero. I qualified as a Aero engineer and graduate salaries when I graduated were no ore than 14k in year 2000. I retrained to do mathematical modelling for a civil engineering company. Have now reached the top of the salary tree after 10 years hard graft.I've just interviewed someone who is currently working in the aerospace industry. I was quite shocked how little he was earning. What would you expect a professional engineer, PhD and 10 years experience to be earning?
There is no future in engineering, now I am applying for jobs in the City in Quant modelling. even taking a entry/junior position will give me more ake home than my current job!!
Correct due to the stupid IPad spell checker
Edited by stevieb on Saturday 7th May 12:18
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