Issues at work - pregnancy/miscarriage related

[Ambleton]

This is going to be a long and tumultuous post - apologies.

I need to seek some advice. I've contacted a local employment law specialist but I just can't afford it.

My wife works in the technical offices of a manufacturing business that create very high end products.

Last April we suffered from a late miscarriage at 20wks and 6days. Full natural birth, just too early. Waters broke.

She was then signed off sick for baby bereavement. I'm not sure of this is classed as a pregnancy related illness or not. I'm struggling to find any guidelines. It hit pretty hard. I don't know if anyone has seen a 21wk baby but they're full and complete (fingernails and toenails and everything), just small and pink - about the size of a ladies size 5 shoe)

My wife went back to work. She works for a chap who has zero social skills and absolutely no empathy. He's made a lot of comments over the past 12months that are totally unacceptable and has upset my wife quite a lot.

A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".

She was refused a companion in the hearing (which I think is illegal). The result of the hearing was that "nothing could be upheld". In the grievance she requested the outcome to be to work directly for another manager. This was also refused as "he has to be your manager". I think he was probably given a verbal warning about his comments but other than that i think it was swept under the carpet.

About 8-9 weeks ago we find out shes pregnant again. Given what happened last time she's being careful about heavy lifting, not doing too much.

She's been suffering from bad morning sickness. She's requested multiple times if she can work from home on the days she's feeling really rough. Theres no real reason she can't WFH, I'd say 75% of her job could be done remotely and it can be staggered so that the workload would suit. This has been refused on a basis of "no WFH policy". Fine.

There has been a few days where if she's been violently sick multiple times and has had migraines/headaches (another pregnancy related issue) she hasn't gone into work.

At her work the sickness/welfare policy rolls on a 12m basis.

The policy basically reads:

If you've been off sick on three separate occasions in the last 12months you get a verbal

If you've been off sick on four or more separate occasions you get a formal hearing.

Now she's received a letter from HR that there will be a formal welfare hearing because she's been off on 5 different occasions within the last 12m, totalling 19days.

The five occasions are:
June 2023 (bereavement of baby) 12days
August 2023 (migraine) - this one is fair enough IMO 1day
April/May 2024 - doctors orders to take rest for pregnancy related concerns/issues (4days)
June 2024 - migraine/headache (probably pregnancy related as they are linked, but not 100%) 1day
June 2024 - I had a trip to A&E and we didn't get home till 4am. So this is "care of a dependant". They've put this down as unauthorised absence. 1day

It feels to me like this is her boss trying to get back at her for complaining about his behaviour.

Shes convinced they're trying to get rid of her, and it does seem like it. It's hard in meetings too because it's such a sensitive and emotional topic she gets upset, goes quiet and cries, people talk over her and she can't get her point across as she's branded "emotional" - no st.

If you've made it this far, well done. Thanks for reading and I welcome any advice/words of wisdom.

Suggestions that include slashing tyres/cutting brake lines/burning down houses welcomed but will not be actioned.

Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 16:34

[Scrump]

Sorry for your loss but pleasing to hear that your wife is pregnant again.
It is awful that in this day and age there are people and companies who behave in such a manner.
I had to engage some employment law help to advise my wife over a workplace issue, it was not cheap but worth it.
I hope you get the advice and support you need.

[Ambleton]

Scrump said:

Sorry for your loss but pleasing to hear that your wife is pregnant again.
It is awful that in this day and age there are people and companies who behave in such a manner.
I had to engage some employment law help to advise my wife over a workplace issue, it was not cheap but worth it.
I hope you get the advice and support you need.

Thankyou.

The employment law specialist I contacted was £350/HR +VAT and suggested an initial sit down/review of all documents was 5-6hrs as a "kick off"

[Slowboathome]

I really hope that there's someone on here who can give authoritative advice because to my non-expert eyes this looks like a horrible combination of harassment and sex discrimination.

[Ambleton]

I should also say that if there is an employment lawyer in the house Im "happy" to pay for some professional advice, just not the kind of figures I've been quoted above.

[Pistom]

This is heart-breaking to read.

I know you say you can't afford employment advice but if there was any way to get it, good advice at this stage will not only tell you what your options are but also give you some confidence.

It's incredible that in this day and age it's considered acceptable to dismiss people as hormonal and emotional. Such a low swing.

[Tenacious]

I think Jasandjules is the employment guru on here.

[Ambleton]

CheesecakeRunner said:

I hope this pregnancy goes well for you, best wishes.

Thankyou.

It's a very stressful time and we really can't go through it again. I will say the NHS has been absolutely excellent throughout and we've had two early reassurance scans already. The proper dating scan is this week.

The last thing we need is to worry about this as well!

Oh yeah. The other thing they've done is advertised her job too - which seems a bit keen given that we're only at 12wks. It's not listed as maternity cover, but "temporary contract".

Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 17:00

[Mortarboard]

Assuming it's the uk, start here:
https://www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-righ...

Main concern (at this stage, and an assumption) is "reasonable accomodation" for health conditions (includes morning sickness).

What has her H&S rep said?

M.

[Jordie Barretts sock]

Mate, sincere sympathy for your situation. Jasandjules is indeed the guru on here.

As an employer (albeit a small business) I think your wife has been treated appallingly.

Don't take this lying down. You have rights. And as I understand it, a tribunal costs very little these days. Talk to another lawyer.

[CraigNewmarket]

Ambleton said:

This is going to be a long and tumultuous post - apologies.

I need to seek some advice. I've contacted a local employment law specialist but I just can't afford it.

My wife works in the technical offices of a manufacturing business that create very high end products.

Last April we suffered from a late miscarriage at 20wks and 6days. Full natural birth, just too early. Waters broke.

She was then signed off sick for baby bereavement. I'm not sure of this is classed as a pregnancy related illness or not. I'm struggling to find any guidelines. It hit pretty hard. I don't know if anyone has seen a 21wk baby but they're full and complete (fingernails and toenails and everything), just small and pink - about the size of a ladies size 5 shoe)

My wife went back to work. She works for a chap who has zero social skills and absolutely no empathy. He's made a lot of comments over the past 12months that are totally unacceptable and has upset my wife quite a lot.

A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".

She was refused a companion in the hearing (which I think is illegal). The result of the hearing was that "nothing could be upheld". In the grievance she requested the outcome to be to work directly for another manager. This was also refused as "he has to be your manager". I think he was probably given a verbal warning about his comments but other than that i think it was swept under the carpet.

About 8-9 weeks ago we find out shes pregnant again. Given what happened last time she's being careful about heavy lifting, not doing too much.

She's been suffering from bad morning sickness. She's requested multiple times if she can work from home on the days she's feeling really rough. Theres no real reason she can't WFH, I'd say 75% of her job could be done remotely and it can be staggered so that the workload would suit. This has been refused on a basis of "no WFH policy". Fine.

There has been a few days where if she's been violently sick multiple times and has had migraines/headaches (another pregnancy related issue) she hasn't gone into work.

At her work the sickness/welfare policy rolls on a 12m basis.

The policy basically reads:

If you've been off sick on three separate occasions in the last 12months you get a verbal

If you've been off sick on four or more separate occasions you get a formal hearing.

Now she's received a letter from HR that there will be a formal welfare hearing because she's been off on 5 different occasions within the last 12m, totalling 19days.

The five occasions are:
June 2023 (bereavement of baby) 12days
August 2023 (migraine) - this one is fair enough IMO 1day
April/May 2024 - doctors orders to take rest for pregnancy related concerns/issues (4days)
June 2024 - migraine/headache (probably pregnancy related as they are linked, but not 100%) 1day
June 2024 - I had a trip to A&E and we didn't get home till 4am. So this is "care of a dependant". They've put this down as unauthorised absence. 1day

It feels to me like this is her boss trying to get back at her for complaining about his behaviour.

Shes convinced they're trying to get rid of her, and it does seem like it. It's hard in meetings too because it's such a sensitive and emotional topic she gets upset, goes quiet and cries, people talk over her and she can't get her point across as she's branded "emotional" - no st.

If you've made it this far, well done. Thanks for reading and I welcome any advice/words of wisdom.

Suggestions that include slashing tyres/cutting brake lines/burning down houses welcomed but will not be actioned.

Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 16:34

The HR policy will be company wide, these "meetings" the outcome is decided before anyone even steps into the office .

Edited by CraigNewmarket on Wednesday 12th June 17:31

[Panamax]

Ambleton said:

The employment law specialist I contacted was £350/HR +VAT

Pay it if you can. This is important stuff and you want to get it right. Engaging a specialist can transmit a clear "keep off the grass" message to an employer.

It really shouldn't take 6 hours to get initial guidance so long as you have everything carefully written down and summarised before you start. A clear history of workplace events and health matters with precise names, dates etc.

As regards your unfortunate stillborn, yes, that's exactly why IMO the cut-off date for most terminations should be reduced from 24 weeks to somewhere around 20 weeks.

[Ambleton]

Mortarboard said:

Assuming it's the uk, start here:
https://www.gov.uk/working-when-pregnant-your-righ...

Main concern (at this stage, and an assumption) is "reasonable accomodation" for health conditions (includes morning sickness).

What has her H&S rep said?

M.

I'm not sure about a H&S rep as she's in the offices. They're seen as soft mouse pushers by the rest of the factory.

They have made some changes though as a few people used to use a very smelly contact adhesive in the offices (to test out pre production samples and prototypes) and theyve been told not to and to use a separate area of the factory by the area manager (not her direct boss).

[Ambleton]

Panamax said:

Pay it if you can. This is important stuff and you want to get it right. Engaging a specialist can transmit a clear "keep off the grass" message to an employer.

It really shouldn't take 6 hours to get initial guidance so long as you have everything carefully written down and summarised before you start. A clear history of workplace events and health matters with precise names, dates etc.

As regards your unfortunate stillborn, yes, that's exactly why IMO the cut-off date for most terminations should be reduced from 24 weeks to somewhere around 20 weeks.

I agree. I'll start to put together a timeline including dates, names and letters etc.

Unless there's a severe health issue/risk I think even 20wks for a termination is a touch late. At 24wks you have a "viable baby" - IE, one that could survive outside the womb (albeit incredibly premature and likely with some issues)

Anyone who says a baby isn't a baby until it's born is crackers IMO. I have seen and held my daughter and have photos that would suggest otherwise.

[garythesign]

That was a tough read.

Am so sorry for you and your wife and wish you the best.

Her boss sounds an absolute ahole

[Mortarboard]

Ambleton said:

I'm not sure about a H&S rep as she's in the offices. They're seen as soft mouse pushers by the rest of the factory.

That may be, but that's the route to take for H&S issues. It'll be the first thing that comes up at tribunal.

For a start, does your wife have a copy of her (specific, not generic) pregnancy risk assessment? This is a legal requirement.

Also, how likely is she to continue working there? If the relationship is already soured, and she's looking to move on, there's other options under H&S.

Big or small company? Small ones often aren't really aware of their requirements.

M.

[Ambleton]

Mortarboard said:

That may be, but that's the route to take for H&S issues. It'll be the first thing that comes up at tribunal.

For a start, does your wife have a copy of her (specific, not generic) pregnancy risk assessment? This is a legal requirement.

Nope - don't think this has been done. If it has, then it's news to either of us!

Mortarboard said:

Also, how likely is she to continue working there? If the relationship is already soured, and she's looking to move on, there's other options under H&S.

Feels very strained. She's trying her best just to get through to maternity leave.

Mortarboard said:

Big or small company? Small ones often aren't really aware of their requirements.

Relatively small company. Maybe 80 people. They're owned by huge multinational high fashion brand though.

[MrSmith901]

Shocking behaviour from your wife's boss and the company in general. I'm not sure I'd even try and defend it and say something about old fashioned attitudes, it's just general human decency that is lacking here.

If you can afford it at all, you really do need to get a solicitor to advise you and possibly get them to send a letter to your employer. This will most likely stop them going down the current route. Redundancy or a COT3 wouldn't surprise me as their next move but at least that way she would get a pay out.

[SydneyBridge]

Get your wife signed off work sick if needed, then she can be out of it and start her maternity leave on the date of baby birth.
My son's mother had pre eclampsia and got signed off

[Ambleton]

MrSmith901 said:

Shocking behaviour from your wife's boss and the company in general. I'm not sure I'd even try and defend it and say something about old fashioned attitudes, it's just general human decency that is lacking here.

Her boss is a year or two younger than she is. He's in his early 30s. He's a horrible person. Only ever had one "real" job. Went straight from uni into the company and has been there for 11years I think. Everyone seems to love him and thinks the sun shines out his arse.