When do you decide to change jobs?
Discussion
Season's greetings,
I work for a medium-sized consultancy doing technical cybersecurity work. My team are global but only about ten of us. I've only been with the company for about 18 months but really made a big impact, partly due to my own efforts but also just due to taking a leading role in most of the big things which have happened.
I was previously in a manager position in my old job but don't manage anyone in my current. I am simply a "senior consultant" - probably soon to be promoted to Principal Consulant. Btw, it's fairly common to move between management/technical in my industry... I also went from public sector to private, so a real shift in career.
Good things
Pay is very strong
WFH all the time
Pick and choose my own hours, e.g. I can start at 1030am or 7am and as long as I'm available it's fine
Boss doesn't care where I work from - e.g. Spain, UK, coffee shop or living room
Bonus - probably in June and likely to be about 15% of my salary
No weekend work - there is on-call but only between 10am and 4pm, very rare to be needed
Not so good things
My team are a mixed bag, I often feel like I am carrying those who work in my region
There's a real lack of team ethic/comraderie and general "togetherness". This does exist in some remote jobs, but not this one
I am not using my previous management skills/experience. Part of me feels I am not working to my potential.
Job potential
There's a job at Microsoft which I look perfect for. It's a management role. I know someone who works there on the team and they can put my CV straight to the boss. Guaranteed interview, and I am fairly confident that it could lead to an offer.
It looks great on the CV obviously, but I am reluctant at upsetting the status quo, disrupting everything to change jobs, going into a more corporate company where it would likely be way more rigid.
No idea on pay or salary. It's a manager role but it would probably be the same as my current pay. I'd be surprised if it was more.
Question for you
How do you decide on when to move jobs?
What's your big "sign" apart from feeling absolutely miserable? It's obviously more difficult if you're content/happy enough?
I am not trying to jump the gun but I don't want to start applying if I am not going to leave.
I work for a medium-sized consultancy doing technical cybersecurity work. My team are global but only about ten of us. I've only been with the company for about 18 months but really made a big impact, partly due to my own efforts but also just due to taking a leading role in most of the big things which have happened.
I was previously in a manager position in my old job but don't manage anyone in my current. I am simply a "senior consultant" - probably soon to be promoted to Principal Consulant. Btw, it's fairly common to move between management/technical in my industry... I also went from public sector to private, so a real shift in career.
Good things
Pay is very strong
WFH all the time
Pick and choose my own hours, e.g. I can start at 1030am or 7am and as long as I'm available it's fine
Boss doesn't care where I work from - e.g. Spain, UK, coffee shop or living room
Bonus - probably in June and likely to be about 15% of my salary
No weekend work - there is on-call but only between 10am and 4pm, very rare to be needed
Not so good things
My team are a mixed bag, I often feel like I am carrying those who work in my region
There's a real lack of team ethic/comraderie and general "togetherness". This does exist in some remote jobs, but not this one
I am not using my previous management skills/experience. Part of me feels I am not working to my potential.
Job potential
There's a job at Microsoft which I look perfect for. It's a management role. I know someone who works there on the team and they can put my CV straight to the boss. Guaranteed interview, and I am fairly confident that it could lead to an offer.
It looks great on the CV obviously, but I am reluctant at upsetting the status quo, disrupting everything to change jobs, going into a more corporate company where it would likely be way more rigid.
No idea on pay or salary. It's a manager role but it would probably be the same as my current pay. I'd be surprised if it was more.
Question for you
How do you decide on when to move jobs?
What's your big "sign" apart from feeling absolutely miserable? It's obviously more difficult if you're content/happy enough?
I am not trying to jump the gun but I don't want to start applying if I am not going to leave.
bad company said:
I’d apply for the job at Microsoft and make the decision when and if you get an offer. You’ll have a lot more information to base your decision on at that stage.
There’s no decision to make yet.
Agreed - My experience of applying to Microsoft is that the process is quite an opaque one and having a "person on the inside" makes very little difference when it comes to getting an interview. I had to chase and chase the recruiter despite being a perfect fit for the role. There’s no decision to make yet.
I would also comment that the Microsoft comp package is likely to be a good one when you factor in the car and any stock options. If you do get as far as them making an offer, I would guess it would be a pretty hard one to turn down.....
redrabbit29 said:
Question for you
How do you decide on when to move jobs?
What's your big "sign" apart from feeling absolutely miserable? It's obviously more difficult if you're content/happy enough?
I am not trying to jump the gun but I don't want to start applying if I am not going to leave.
Being happy and content is fine but sometimes you need a new challenge - new things to go at. Only you know if that's you.How do you decide on when to move jobs?
What's your big "sign" apart from feeling absolutely miserable? It's obviously more difficult if you're content/happy enough?
I am not trying to jump the gun but I don't want to start applying if I am not going to leave.
Sometimes, you only know if you're going to leave if you apply for another role - you have no idea what this Microsoft opportunity is truly about unless you pursue it.
If it's not for you or you want to stay where you are, fine - withdraw. As long as you do that respectfully and professionally, there's no downside.
That last time was when a group manager was comming up to do a disciplinary meeting , apparently I’d wrecked a contract
He travelled 150 miles up , wasted journey as I didn’t turn up , started my new job the next day .
13 yrs later I was sent back there whilst doing a short stint on agency , I told the agency it wasn’t a good idea but they said go & see what happens , I arrived & chap in charge was deputy manager when I left , he said didn’t you leave under a disciplinary ? Yes I told the agency it wasn’t a good idea , I went out & did the job & at the end of the day they offered me a full time job , turned it down as not enough money .
I think he knew the wrecking the contract was a load of rubbish , apparently I was getting back 1/2 hr later than previous , which is not surprising when the manager had you in the office about speeding the previous week , I was still back at midnight leaving the 2 nd driver 5 hrs ( load had to be there by 5 am ) & the journey took 2 hrs 15 , he was getting there at 7 am 🙄, he was bosses mate so boss blamed me for it
I still see that boss round town , he scowls , I grin
Probably not the right thing to do , but it felt right at the time .
He travelled 150 miles up , wasted journey as I didn’t turn up , started my new job the next day .
13 yrs later I was sent back there whilst doing a short stint on agency , I told the agency it wasn’t a good idea but they said go & see what happens , I arrived & chap in charge was deputy manager when I left , he said didn’t you leave under a disciplinary ? Yes I told the agency it wasn’t a good idea , I went out & did the job & at the end of the day they offered me a full time job , turned it down as not enough money .
I think he knew the wrecking the contract was a load of rubbish , apparently I was getting back 1/2 hr later than previous , which is not surprising when the manager had you in the office about speeding the previous week , I was still back at midnight leaving the 2 nd driver 5 hrs ( load had to be there by 5 am ) & the journey took 2 hrs 15 , he was getting there at 7 am 🙄, he was bosses mate so boss blamed me for it
I still see that boss round town , he scowls , I grin
Probably not the right thing to do , but it felt right at the time .
3 1/2 yrs ago I walked out of another job
I went to b&q at Battersea , I got to top of road / culdesac & couldn’t see height of bridge , if I went down and couldn’t get under it would be a nightmare to turn around so parked at the top of road & walked down , I could then see height of bridge & yard bloke said there was a turning circle just after , so walked back up & the other driver parked there said we’d got parking tickets , he’d gone to another yard , couldn’t see
who put ticket on anywhere .handed parking ticket in when got back to yard , told no problem we will pay the ticket .
Week later got back on a Thurs to be handed a brown envelope with parking ticket in it , apparently some manager somewhere said they wernt paying it , told manager I’m done then , pleaded with me to stay but packed car & went , Que phones calls saying I couldn’t just walk out , I was to report for work mon etc etc , never went back .
Had a week of and started a new job
I went to b&q at Battersea , I got to top of road / culdesac & couldn’t see height of bridge , if I went down and couldn’t get under it would be a nightmare to turn around so parked at the top of road & walked down , I could then see height of bridge & yard bloke said there was a turning circle just after , so walked back up & the other driver parked there said we’d got parking tickets , he’d gone to another yard , couldn’t see
who put ticket on anywhere .handed parking ticket in when got back to yard , told no problem we will pay the ticket . Week later got back on a Thurs to be handed a brown envelope with parking ticket in it , apparently some manager somewhere said they wernt paying it , told manager I’m done then , pleaded with me to stay but packed car & went , Que phones calls saying I couldn’t just walk out , I was to report for work mon etc etc , never went back .
Had a week of and started a new job
Start new job in 2 weeks. Been with current employer for 7 years.
Years ago I gave my right arm for a previous employer. I was the "main man" he told me. Come the ressesion of 2010 and I got made redundant. He didn't do it as he was an ahole. I found another job luckily in 3 weeks.
Fast forward 15 or so years I've had a couple of jobs. One thing I learned was don't be loyal and don't let them treat you bad. I've carried that onwards.
Current employer thinks they can use and abuse me so instead of getting mad, I find another job and move on. No stamping of feet from me or drama. I just say I'm off, do my contractual notice and leave on good terms. I'm always the winner.
Remember it's just a job and your worth every penny they pay you.
Years ago I gave my right arm for a previous employer. I was the "main man" he told me. Come the ressesion of 2010 and I got made redundant. He didn't do it as he was an a
hole. I found another job luckily in 3 weeks. Fast forward 15 or so years I've had a couple of jobs. One thing I learned was don't be loyal and don't let them treat you bad. I've carried that onwards.
Current employer thinks they can use and abuse me so instead of getting mad, I find another job and move on. No stamping of feet from me or drama. I just say I'm off, do my contractual notice and leave on good terms. I'm always the winner.
Remember it's just a job and your worth every penny they pay you.
I’ve normally found that it’s time to leave when the “Not so good things” outweigh / outnumber the “Good things”.
I think there will always be a certain level of irritation in a job, whether it’s technical, with colleagues or clients / customers, budgets (or lack of), mandatory training and reporting etc, and over time all these things add up and you think “Right, sod it, that’s enough!”
I’ve had a job where it’s taken 15 years to get to that point, other jobs where it’s taken 15 minutes but I’ve thought I’d better stay for a little while and see if I could make it work.
I think there will always be a certain level of irritation in a job, whether it’s technical, with colleagues or clients / customers, budgets (or lack of), mandatory training and reporting etc, and over time all these things add up and you think “Right, sod it, that’s enough!”
I’ve had a job where it’s taken 15 years to get to that point, other jobs where it’s taken 15 minutes but I’ve thought I’d better stay for a little while and see if I could make it work.
Edited by SimpleSimonSays on Thursday 25th April 17:03
What can you do to personally address the not so good things?
Resolve those and your desire to leave may reduce.
E.g. not that it affects my job or satisfaction but my organisation suffers from high turnover and low morale. So I took it upon myself to try to improve this. Not much I can do about salaries, which are the main reason for turnover but some of the stuff I've done has at least delayed some people leaving.
Resolve those and your desire to leave may reduce.
E.g. not that it affects my job or satisfaction but my organisation suffers from high turnover and low morale. So I took it upon myself to try to improve this. Not much I can do about salaries, which are the main reason for turnover but some of the stuff I've done has at least delayed some people leaving.
I ask myself the following 3 questions, and really need a 'yes' to each one to be not looking elsewhere:
1) Do I have fundamental job security? I.E is the company performing well, is there risk of layoffs, is my performance good etc..
2) Do i have upside working here? I.E Can I grow my career, learn more, earn more money or in someway have growth at this company.
3) What kind of person am I outside of work by working here? I.E am I happy, am I a good person, does this company impact my mental health or ability to be a good husband / father.
If any of these three are not true, I'd advise beginning to look, if 2 out of three are not true, get looking, if 3 out of 3 are not true... Run as fast as you can out of the door.
1) Do I have fundamental job security? I.E is the company performing well, is there risk of layoffs, is my performance good etc..
2) Do i have upside working here? I.E Can I grow my career, learn more, earn more money or in someway have growth at this company.
3) What kind of person am I outside of work by working here? I.E am I happy, am I a good person, does this company impact my mental health or ability to be a good husband / father.
If any of these three are not true, I'd advise beginning to look, if 2 out of three are not true, get looking, if 3 out of 3 are not true... Run as fast as you can out of the door.
Just to be clear, I am very happy with my pay and the conditions are good. That was why my question was more about other aspects.
For me primarily, it's that I am not working to my potential and think I may have a better career path elsewhere. Particularly as there is not much progression in my company as it is a small consultancy and I am in a specialised field.
For me primarily, it's that I am not working to my potential and think I may have a better career path elsewhere. Particularly as there is not much progression in my company as it is a small consultancy and I am in a specialised field.
Countdown said:
Mortarboard said:
"If you're not happy with your current compensation, there are plenty of other employers out there...."
They do get surprised when you agree
M.
Surprised or relieved? They do get surprised when you agree
M.
Second time, I'd say they were relieved. I had been training up to succeed my boss on her promotion (at some point in the future). Then they blocked her promotion. So she left. Guess who was next to get a promotion blocked? Notice went in a month later.
M.
This is the 3rd or so thread you have made about this job now isn't it? You clearly don't like it or have an issue with it.
Apply for the other one, I assume equity would be part of the Microsoft gig which would likely make any package from them very much more competitive than what you're on now. Though it is not unlikely that Microsoft as per many large tech companies now (Salesforce, AWS etc) will want you on site more often, it is 3 days a week in some of those companies now.
What do you have to lose to go through the process and get an offer?
Apply for the other one, I assume equity would be part of the Microsoft gig which would likely make any package from them very much more competitive than what you're on now. Though it is not unlikely that Microsoft as per many large tech companies now (Salesforce, AWS etc) will want you on site more often, it is 3 days a week in some of those companies now.
What do you have to lose to go through the process and get an offer?
Mortarboard said:
First time it happened, it was "Pikachu face" as the cool kids call it. I was bringing in 3 million euros in consultancy fees, and being paid 38k pa
Second time, I'd say they were relieved. I had been training up to succeed my boss on her promotion (at some point in the future). Then they blocked her promotion. So she left. Guess who was next to get a promotion blocked? Notice went in a month later.
M.
Fair enough Second time, I'd say they were relieved. I had been training up to succeed my boss on her promotion (at some point in the future). Then they blocked her promotion. So she left. Guess who was next to get a promotion blocked? Notice went in a month later.
M.
I've generally been lucky - I've mostly had bosses who have appreciated me (possibly more than I deserved) and that actually counts for a lot in your working life. As a result I was lucky enough to get promotions when the vacancies came up (although it was usually a huge advantage being an internal candidate) and I've also been able to negotiate payrises a few times (but again, easy to do because Finance roles can be benchmarked quite easily)
okgo said:
This is the 3rd or so thread you have made about this job now isn't it? You clearly don't like it or have an issue with it.
Apply for the other one, I assume equity would be part of the Microsoft gig which would likely make any package from them very much more competitive than what you're on now. Though it is not unlikely that Microsoft as per many large tech companies now (Salesforce, AWS etc) will want you on site more often, it is 3 days a week in some of those companies now.
What do you have to lose to go through the process and get an offer?
I don't think I've made any threads about jobs, at least not moving or being unhappy. Are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else? Why do you think I am unhappy? I have explicitly said in this thread "I am very happy with my pay and the conditions are good" so I have absolutely no issue with the job, aside from the same general daily frustrations people have but they're minor. Apply for the other one, I assume equity would be part of the Microsoft gig which would likely make any package from them very much more competitive than what you're on now. Though it is not unlikely that Microsoft as per many large tech companies now (Salesforce, AWS etc) will want you on site more often, it is 3 days a week in some of those companies now.
What do you have to lose to go through the process and get an offer?
My question is mainly about career progression, about when to move on, what factors people consider.
It's a good point about the equity, that crossed my mind. I applied for the job earlier today, primarily so I didn't miss out as I'd like to at least talk to someone about it. I'll see what happens and whether to continue with the application or not depending on if I get a call back.
It's entirely remote this job. They do stipulate "possible travel to client sites" but this is very rare these days.
EDIT: I did make a thread back in August last year asking about how long to stay in a job. At that stage I was the person on my team in my timezone. So it was really frustrating, isolating and just not very good overall. I wasn't unhappy, but just a bit unsettled.
Edited by redrabbit29 on Thursday 25th April 17:21
True but one of those was the week I started when my immediate manager had resigned the day before I started. Also after leaving my previous role of 17 years.
The other two are around the same time period (June and August 2023) when I was still on my own with no team or support.
Times have moved on and for around 10 months it's been absolutely fine. I'm due a promotion in a month but not sure I want to stay long term for various reasons. I've applied to Microsoft just to consider my options.
To be very clear I'm happy and I'm not desperate to move. My question was about when to consider a new position, especially when the current is absolutely fine.
The other two are around the same time period (June and August 2023) when I was still on my own with no team or support.
Times have moved on and for around 10 months it's been absolutely fine. I'm due a promotion in a month but not sure I want to stay long term for various reasons. I've applied to Microsoft just to consider my options.
To be very clear I'm happy and I'm not desperate to move. My question was about when to consider a new position, especially when the current is absolutely fine.
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