Working at height in open retail

[essexplumber]

Hi everyone.

Bit of a long winded scenario I’d like some feedback on from anyone that might be in H&S as well as basic opinions.

I’m being asked to carry out work in retail outlets where the use of steps/ladders is required, on my own and in store opening hours.
I don’t feel that this is safe for various reasons even with the use of barriers and have argued that such tasks should be carried out out of hours.
It’s not just my own safety they concerns me but that of customers especially children and the elderly if I or equipment or tools etc were to fall.

Thanks in advance.

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Difficult to comment without specifics but I would contact your local company H&S representative and ask him/her to take you through the H&S risk assessement and method statement for this task... if there is none then do NOT do it.

If they can prove to you it's safe to your satisfaction then fine; if not then you need to escalate it through your line management (whilst not doing the task).

Fundamentally do not do anything you feel is unsafe. When they have proven to you it is safe and you are happy then crack on.

Many accidents would be avoided if people like you put their head above the parapet, the management should welcome your concerns and deal with them.

[Grumbler]

Had a similar situation when I did work in Tesco stores. We had the area directly below the works barriered off, but crucially we has a second man controlling/assisting customers. The WILL squeeze past the barrier and reach through the ladder or scissor lift mechanism to get something from the shelves. Better to have someone sensible to pass things to them.

[Rough101]

A friend was working in a supermarket and fell 20ft, (this is true) but had a soft landing in baked goods, his employer was billed for a large quantity of squashed loaves and Swiss rolls.

Shop was closed though, in the days before 24hr opening.

[essexplumber]

I have raised this in the past many times but the issue is a few of the engineers do just crack on (basically because they can’t be bothered to argue) which understandably makes my argument look silly.
To get around this I attend the sites in question very early (setting off at 04:30 sometimes) to get to store before they open (a window of 2 hours) but this does not allow time to get things done to my satisfaction.
When I raised these issues initially a few years ago they brought in a H&S advisor whom I met in store to demonstrate the logistics of everything and he agreed it wasn’t safe, but I assume they ignored his recommendations as I heard no more about it.
So as it stands I just refuse to do it but am starting to feel like I’m causing a problem but I can’t find anything concrete through HSE regarding lone working at height in public areas.
Our RAMS are generic in terms of ladder use too.

[KAgantua]

Rough101 said:

A friend was working in a supermarket and fell 20ft, (this is true) but had a soft landing in baked goods, his employer was billed for a large quantity of squashed loaves and Swiss rolls.

Shop was closed though, in the days before 24hr opening.

Shop was right to bill the company. Your friend should have used his loaf...

[Pedro25]

OP, I've done lots of construction and refurb works within retail over the last 20 years, one thing to point out is that the store manager is responsible for H&S on his/her premises, any incidents that may occur is also laid at their door, they normally have to sign off a permit to work before any work commences, in fact some retailers and contracted companies ban the use of step ladders completely, large retail outlets tend to have tiled floors, IMO if I was in your situation I certainly wouldn't be working on my own, have the area you are working in completely sealed off from customers and staff and have a colleague with me at all times. I attended a working at heights training seminar where the guest speaker told us he'd fallen 7 feet off a small step ladder whilst working on a fitting above head height, he gave his speech from his wheelchair. He was quite matter of fact about it and stated if he had his time again he would/should have refused to do the work without proper safeguards in place.

[Wacky Racer]

KAgantua said:

Rough101 said:

A friend was working in a supermarket and fell 20ft, (this is true) but had a soft landing in baked goods, his employer was billed for a large quantity of squashed loaves and Swiss rolls.

Shop was closed though, in the days before 24hr opening.

Shop was right to bill the company. Your friend should have used his loaf...

Your friend was very lucky, he could have been toast.

[Slow.Patrol]

Has your employer provided a copy of their risk assessment for working with ladders.

They should have one, assuming they have more than five employees.

[essexplumber]

Pedro25 said:

OP, I've done lots of construction and refurb works within retail over the last 20 years, one thing to point out is that the store manager is responsible for H&S on his/her premises, any incidents that may occur is also laid at their door, they normally have to sign off a permit to work before any work commences, in fact some retailers and contracted companies ban the use of step ladders completely, large retail outlets tend to have tiled floors, IMO if I was in your situation I certainly wouldn't be working on my own, have the area you are working in completely sealed off from customers and staff and have a colleague with me at all times. I attended a working at heights training seminar where the guest speaker told us he'd fallen 7 feet off a small step ladder whilst working on a fitting above head height, he gave his speech from his wheelchair. He was quite matter of fact about it and stated if he had his time again he would/should have refused to do the work without proper safeguards in place.

I imagine the issue is 2 men for working at height wasn’t priced into the contract, but as I say I won’t be doing it. I have requested specific RAMS so will wait and see.
It’s the variation too as some site’s equipment is higher than others.
My main concern is I’m up steps and someone comes along and smashes into them. Also with barriers as someone else said people ignore them especially children.
I’ve had store managers comment that they don’t want us on the floor during opening hours which I’ve relayed to my office but it falls on deaf ears.

Edited by essexplumber on Thursday 21st March 12:26

[Mortarboard]

H&S guy here.

Short, legal answer-
Proceed as per your company's Risk Assessment and Method Statement.

This should include things like impacts from customers, customers being hit by falling objects, and your albility to carry out the work from a ladder (three points of contact etc etc)

I used to have facilities teams doing this sort of work, and they were under strict instruction that the ladders stayed in the van until the barriers were in position.

And yes, customers will move the barriers, and your ladder.

ETA:
straight from the HSE

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/ladders/

M.

Edited by Mortarboard on Thursday 21st March 12:36

[55palfers]

Is there room for a suitably sized one of these?

https://www.hss.com/hire/p/electric-scissor-lift-1...

[essexplumber]

Mortarboard said:

H&S guy here.

Short, legal answer-
Proceed as per your company's Risk Assessment and Method Statement.

This should include things like impacts from customers, customers being hit by falling objects, and your albility to carry out the work from a ladder (three points of contact etc etc)

I used to have facilities teams doing this sort of work, and they were under strict instruction that the ladders stayed in the van until the barriers were in position.

And yes, customers will move the barriers, and your ladder.

ETA:
straight from the HSE

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/ladders/

M.

Edited by Mortarboard on Thursday 21st March 12:36

Thanks! The 3 points of contact thing is straight out of the window, very often I’m at 2/4 meters roughly and have no choice but to use both hands.

[Jasandjules]

Here

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/the-law.htm

[Gompo]

I was under the impression you were meant to use a small scaffold tower whenever possible rather than stepladders. I assume that's not possible?

[Mortarboard]

So if you can't maintain 3 points of contact then:

1. You should not be working from a ladder
2. You should be working from a platform

Various types of platforms can be used, like "moveable ladder platforms", where you work from the top step, with a railing around you on three sides, mewp/scissors lift, or things like Lobo platforms, scaffolding.

Key features are: platform to stand on, railing to stop you from stepping off said platform.

Pretty standard stuff, although usually shortcutted by "it's only quick light work. Be fine, mate"

If you need both hands to do the work, it's not light work.....

M.

[snotrag]

Not a H&S pro like some of the above but I do teach some stuff (I'm a MEWPS trainer for instance).

Firstly - just because no one else is questioning it, does not make you look 'silly', quite the opposite. These conversations are often difficult in the short term - but its the right thing to do and any emplyer knows that it is the right thing for you to do.

Never, ever do anything your not happy with.

If your having to take both hands off, and use them above your head - that is not ladder work. Scaffold/platform or Category 3A MEWP is ideal (with suitable training, of course).

[55palfers]

Jasandjules said:

Here

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/the-law.htm

This may be more relevant to OP situation


https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/ladders/type...

[Mortarboard]

And just to add, flag it up with your ehs rep if you have one
M.

[SpamDisco]

Have you contacted one of the sites? As the store manager would usually refuse work in trading hours when I've needed to use ladders in store.