Discussion
Long time lurker but would be interesting to hear view points from a broader background of people than close colleagues/family/friends. Have to be semi-vague as manager is a petrol head although not sure if she’s on this site. Bit of a wall of text but setting some context.
Been offered a role (technology) with a “worse” job title (although some may say this is subjective) but comes with a 45% increase in pay (current pay is mid 5 figures).
I enjoy the current role and company, I’m only looking elsewhere because of the monetary side of things. I know I’m underpaid based on offers colleagues have received with less experience as well as general market research (recruiters and salary ranges provided by other interviews I’ve taken).
Out of the blue I was offered a 25% pay rise by my manager due to “outstanding performance” (although more likely linked to a number of colleagues leaving and her panicking about resourcing) which I would have been happy with, although this was then reduced significantly by HR due to “reasons” (less than 10%) which has left a sour taste which she seemed to have no intention about fighting over to bring to the originally agreed number.
The actual issue, the application for this specific job was more out of desperation, I don’t really want to take it, but it popped up, I met the criteria and the work seemed easy enough if uninteresting and due to my frustrations about pay thought why not put an application in and get some interview experience, but having now received an offer a large pay bump like this is difficult to just say no too.
Ideally, I would present this offer to my manager and have it kick her into gear and actually fight to have the original promised pay rise reinstated, however based on how she’s acted around colleagues that have asked for more and have subsequently gone on to hand their notice in I feel this will go down like a lead balloon and just make the environment quite toxic (although most of the time they’re a nice person and apart from when people are leaving the business I like their management style).
All this potentially could be avoided as I have another interview upcoming with an even larger pay bump that would be great in terms of career development and personal development, however I’m looking at contingency planning if the interview doesn’t go well.
So the options are, take the new role and potentially not enjoy the work and stunt career growth but be fairly compensated, risk an attempt at negotiating with my manager although this may sour the relationship (especially as they think they’ve done me a favour by getting this substantially reduced pay rise), or do nothing, just keep applying and hope something comes up sooner to keep the peace at my currently workplace?
And just to throw another spanner in the works my manager mentioned moving me onto a fast track progression program that will potentially uplift pay by another 20%, but I feel like there’s a slim chance of her actually doing this.
Any words of wisdom?
(The three companies alluded to throughout are all large global firms)
I'd say move and take the money. If current employer asks why you're leaving, show them the offer and give them a chance to counter. That's unless you think you'd really hate the new job or there's a 2 hour commute or some other reason why you should avoid. I wouldn't give a second thought to the job title.
Current employer (especially your manager) will no doubt promise the world... but unless they give you something contractual it's just noise.
Your life will be significantly better with a 45% pay rise. It'll probably take you a decade to get that increase at your current place.
Go for it!
Current employer (especially your manager) will no doubt promise the world... but unless they give you something contractual it's just noise.
Your life will be significantly better with a 45% pay rise. It'll probably take you a decade to get that increase at your current place.
Go for it!
I was in a similar position at my last role. Loads of promises, none of which came to fruition. I ended up leaving and so did loads of my colleagues. Things got worse as we all left, lots of arguments and churn. Eventually they ended up closing the department and made everyone redundant. I do miss working with my last team, but not the company.
The new role isn't my dream job but pays really well and has loads of other benefits. Thing is, if the new offered role really doesn't work out, you can always do it for a couple of years and move on again, it's not forever. If it was me, I'd treat the current offer as Plan B, Plan A being getting the one with the upcoming interview.
The new role isn't my dream job but pays really well and has loads of other benefits. Thing is, if the new offered role really doesn't work out, you can always do it for a couple of years and move on again, it's not forever. If it was me, I'd treat the current offer as Plan B, Plan A being getting the one with the upcoming interview.
Is the issue with the new job the work or the job title? I have had a variety of job titles including Sr. Manager, Director and Vice president. The job I had that I considered entry level was VP. Titles have different value from company to company even in the same industry. When I was a VP I reported to a Director. When I was a Staff Engineer, I was a director. When I was a Director, I reported to a VP.
Your manager will have very little control on your pay unless you work for a very small company. She will be acting as your representative to get you an out of cycle bump. You may feel like you are fighting with her when she is your biggest ally.
However, never offer a counter and never accept one. The person has made the decision to leave and will do so. I once gave a counter because HR made me. (Remember your manager is not in control). When I gave it, I told the person Professionally, it looks like a great offer. But, as a friend I have to tell you I would never take this money. Counters are just confirmation they have been paying you less than they thought you were worth. That is the definition of taking advantage of you.
Your manager will have very little control on your pay unless you work for a very small company. She will be acting as your representative to get you an out of cycle bump. You may feel like you are fighting with her when she is your biggest ally.
However, never offer a counter and never accept one. The person has made the decision to leave and will do so. I once gave a counter because HR made me. (Remember your manager is not in control). When I gave it, I told the person Professionally, it looks like a great offer. But, as a friend I have to tell you I would never take this money. Counters are just confirmation they have been paying you less than they thought you were worth. That is the definition of taking advantage of you.
mcbook said:
I'd say move and take the money. If current employer asks why you're leaving, show them the offer and give them a chance to counter. That's unless you think you'd really hate the new job or there's a 2 hour commute or some other reason why you should avoid. I wouldn't give a second thought to the job title.
Current employer (especially your manager) will no doubt promise the world... but unless they give you something contractual it's just noise.
Your life will be significantly better with a 45% pay rise. It'll probably take you a decade to get that increase at your current place.
Go for it!
Yeah, what he said.Current employer (especially your manager) will no doubt promise the world... but unless they give you something contractual it's just noise.
Your life will be significantly better with a 45% pay rise. It'll probably take you a decade to get that increase at your current place.
Go for it!
In my experience big companies never give one off large pay rises which is why HR knocked it back. Unless you are an extreme achiever you'll have been getting below inflation and probably below market rises for a few years which is why your pay is so out of line with what you are being offered.
People then leave and the company has to pay more than they were paying to recruit and train instead of raising existing staff's salaries to meet the market.
Forget the job title. Follow the job description and money. It'll make a difference now and to your pension in the future and if it hasn't worked out you can move on with more experience under your belt and a higher market value.
People then leave and the company has to pay more than they were paying to recruit and train instead of raising existing staff's salaries to meet the market.
Forget the job title. Follow the job description and money. It'll make a difference now and to your pension in the future and if it hasn't worked out you can move on with more experience under your belt and a higher market value.
I'll be honest I was tempted to stop reading at "45% pay increase" and tell you to take it, reading on only cemented that opinion!
You can't spend good intentions or promises, broken or otherwise. The new job will still bring you new experience and potential opportunities down the line even if it's not that obvious right now. Current employer has already shown you what they're about.
You can't spend good intentions or promises, broken or otherwise. The new job will still bring you new experience and potential opportunities down the line even if it's not that obvious right now. Current employer has already shown you what they're about.
To be clear, you have been offered a 25% increase that was reduced to 10% by the company vs an offer from another company with a 45% increase.
What is the question?
Unless the new job is for the Waffen SS or similar, or you are required to work in some location that is awful, commute will be an additional hour a day each way plus 10k costs, then what is the question!?!?!?! Does your current company offer a 100k bonus whislt the new one 1k?
A job title is, in my view, worhtless in the main,. The job title is to get more money. You are being offered that..
So, just once more, what is the queston?
What is the question?
Unless the new job is for the Waffen SS or similar, or you are required to work in some location that is awful, commute will be an additional hour a day each way plus 10k costs, then what is the question!?!?!?! Does your current company offer a 100k bonus whislt the new one 1k?
A job title is, in my view, worhtless in the main,. The job title is to get more money. You are being offered that..
So, just once more, what is the queston?
tom_ said:
The actual issue, the application for this specific job was more out of desperation, I don’t really want to take it, but it popped up, I met the criteria and the work seemed easy enough if uninteresting and due to my frustrations about pay thought why not put an application in and get some interview experience, but having now received an offer a large pay bump like this is difficult to just say no too.
It sounds like you want a new job and are underpaid, but the job you've been offered isn't really what you want - but you feel like your options are either stay or new job and neither is great so your stuck. That's understandable, but not reality!I've often found that starting off the process on an interesting-but-actually-in-the-end-not-a-great-fit job/house has given me the motivation to go and find what I really want.
It doesn't sound like you actually want the new job (from what you've written here) and that's ok - but it should crystalise that:
- your significantly underpaid
- if company X thinks your worth £xxk, other companies will too
tom_ said:
Out of the blue I was offered a 25% pay rise by my manager due to “outstanding performance” (although more likely linked to a number of colleagues leaving and her panicking about resourcing) which I would have been happy with, although this was then reduced significantly by HR due to “reasons” (less than 10%) which has left a sour taste which she seemed to have no intention about fighting over to bring to the originally agreed number.
{...}
Ideally, I would present this offer to my manager and have it kick her into gear and actually fight to have the original promised pay rise reinstated
It sounds like you need to have an honest and up front chat with your manager - they can't really expect you to be happy and motivated with that outcome?{...}
Ideally, I would present this offer to my manager and have it kick her into gear and actually fight to have the original promised pay rise reinstated
I still think you want a new job, but having that conversation (and most likely, the unsatisfying conclusion) might help give closure.
tom_ said:
All this potentially could be avoided as I have another interview upcoming with an even larger pay bump that would be great in terms of career development and personal development, however I’m looking at contingency planning if the interview doesn’t go well.
Aim high! How many job applications have you done now?tom_ said:
And just to throw another spanner in the works my manager mentioned moving me onto a fast track progression program that will potentially uplift pay by another 20%, but I feel like there’s a slim chance of her actually doing this.
That's obviously not going to happen though, is it!tom_ said:
Been offered a role (technology) with a “worse” job title (although some may say this is subjective) but comes with a 45% increase in pay (current pay is mid 5 figures).
Story time:Previous company had done big annual payrises etc every year. But there was no news one year, then suddenly pay freeze, redundancies, WFH revoked, "if we work really hard we can pull through this" etc. All in a year where I'd stepped up responsibility and workload (with promised rewards...)
The WFH was the killer from me and I checked out mentally for a week or so and then had the chat with my manager - where do you expect the motivation to come from? What would you do in my shoes? No real answers.
It crystallised my position and I got my work performance back on track, but my looking-for-work performance on more so.
Couple of false starts but found something that paid ~40% more - I was on ~£55k and this was ~£75k.
It's a step down in terms of title (from a "lead" to just "person who does the thing"), but it's like a grand a month extra. And if I got myself up before, I have to believe I can do it again. And then it'll be more £££ again.
In the exit interview they asked if they'd let me WFH and paid me £90k, would I stay? And then burst out laughing because such an offer would be absurd. Not realising that wasn't far off what I was actually getting...
Edited by baileywin on Friday 26th January 20:50
I watch a youtube channel called life after layoff made by a professional HR person. He advises never to accept a counter offer. He said people who accept are known statistically to leave within a year.
They get put on a ‘flight risk’ list. This basically makes them prime fodder for the chop if a reorg comes up, put to the back of the queue for work on critical projects and tasks etc.
Personally, I’d accept the current 10%, don’t mention anything at all about leaving and keep looking until you find a position you like. You could also accept the current external offer and bail in 12 months, use it as a stepping stone.
I’d really recommend that channel. Was an eye opener to learn a lot of big companies have two tier salary bands, an internal band and external market matching band, which really makes it prudent for you to keep leaving every 24m - 36m if you want to maximise your salary and career progression. They rely on staff inertia to lower their salary costs and internal bands can fall significantly behind the longer you stay in a firm.
Also from recruiters I spoke to, they don’t really look at titles as much as how much you earn and what you actually do on the job, because titles are usually BS. Like senior software engineer in one firm, can be vice president of software development in another industry doing basically the same job. Investment banking especially has ridiculous titles.
When it comes to salaries, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. The promise of a future promotion must be one of the oldest techniques in the book. It then never materialises, or does but is desultory. Extra responsibility, not mirrored by a proportional bump in pay etc. Honestly, I have never spoken to anyone who this worked out well for, who couldn’t beat it by going external.
Unless you have compelling reason to stay, I dunno, you have a baby coming and your company offers 100% pay for 6 months parental leave or something, I’d get out.
They get put on a ‘flight risk’ list. This basically makes them prime fodder for the chop if a reorg comes up, put to the back of the queue for work on critical projects and tasks etc.
Personally, I’d accept the current 10%, don’t mention anything at all about leaving and keep looking until you find a position you like. You could also accept the current external offer and bail in 12 months, use it as a stepping stone.
I’d really recommend that channel. Was an eye opener to learn a lot of big companies have two tier salary bands, an internal band and external market matching band, which really makes it prudent for you to keep leaving every 24m - 36m if you want to maximise your salary and career progression. They rely on staff inertia to lower their salary costs and internal bands can fall significantly behind the longer you stay in a firm.
Also from recruiters I spoke to, they don’t really look at titles as much as how much you earn and what you actually do on the job, because titles are usually BS. Like senior software engineer in one firm, can be vice president of software development in another industry doing basically the same job. Investment banking especially has ridiculous titles.
When it comes to salaries, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. The promise of a future promotion must be one of the oldest techniques in the book. It then never materialises, or does but is desultory. Extra responsibility, not mirrored by a proportional bump in pay etc. Honestly, I have never spoken to anyone who this worked out well for, who couldn’t beat it by going external.
Unless you have compelling reason to stay, I dunno, you have a baby coming and your company offers 100% pay for 6 months parental leave or something, I’d get out.
Edited by wyson on Friday 26th January 21:23
Also, I would advise against having a serious chat with your manager in a firm with a professional HR function. As others have said, the manager will then kick up what you say to HR and then HR will ‘manage the risk’. Managers have little control.
It will be much easier, if you move to another firm where all these internal negotiations have already taken place. CFO has signed off on all the budgets for new roles, HR on board with the salary bands, advertising positions that pay what you want.
In a larger firm there will be layers and layers of people, not just your manager who will need to sign off on what you want, and frankly, they most likely won’t care. If they did, they’d have done something already, put succession plans in place or whatever to ‘manage the risk’.
It might be worthwhile having a frank discussion in a smaller firm if the manager has direct control over budgeting and salaries, or he can directly speak to someone who can authorise it.
Good luck otherwise fighting a large corporates bureaucracy to get what you want.
It will be much easier, if you move to another firm where all these internal negotiations have already taken place. CFO has signed off on all the budgets for new roles, HR on board with the salary bands, advertising positions that pay what you want.
In a larger firm there will be layers and layers of people, not just your manager who will need to sign off on what you want, and frankly, they most likely won’t care. If they did, they’d have done something already, put succession plans in place or whatever to ‘manage the risk’.
It might be worthwhile having a frank discussion in a smaller firm if the manager has direct control over budgeting and salaries, or he can directly speak to someone who can authorise it.
Good luck otherwise fighting a large corporates bureaucracy to get what you want.
Edited by wyson on Saturday 27th January 06:14
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