Going to Ukraine for a work meeting

[ItIsPrivate]

Hi,

I posted in the "health section" about some issues I'm having. A lot of it related to this topic...

I work as a software developer. We have just signed a new client and the very senior people want to send three of us to the client site for a week - this is in Kyiv.

Safety is a concern but for me, the biggest concern is logistics on how to get there. The route and plan proposed is:

Weekend: Fly to Warsaw and stay one night. Next morning collected by driver and taken to Kyiv (12-14 hour trip)
Monday-Friday with client
Weekend after: return the same distance.

To me, this sounds absolutely insane and I can't comprehend how it's justified. I've asked about compensation and been told "We're looking at possible bonus payments" and that they'll allow us informal time to unwind after.

I can't help but feeling by the time we even make it to Kyiv, late on a Sunday after a 14 hour car journey, we'd be really tired. Well I would, as I struggle to relax.

But this is taking up two weekends... plus an entire week away and obviously in Kyiv where there is a curfew and have recently been several attacks which led to deaths.

Can I ask for a sanity check here? Am I overthinking this (I do this a lot)... maybe you'd be fine with this or be equally concerned and a bit doubtful over it all? All of this work can be done remotely and this is acknowledged, but as it's a new client, they want to make them feel important and valued. <insert eyeroll>

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[abzmike]

ItIsPrivate said:

Hi,

I posted in the "health section" about some issues I'm having. A lot of it related to this topic...

I work as a software developer. We have just signed a new client and the very senior people want to send three of us to the client site for a week - this is in Kyiv.

Safety is a concern but for me, the biggest concern is logistics on how to get there. The route and plan proposed is:

Weekend: Fly to Warsaw and stay one night. Next morning collected by driver and taken to Kyiv (12-14 hour trip)
Monday-Friday with client
Weekend after: return the same distance.

To me, this sounds absolutely insane and I can't comprehend how it's justified. I've asked about compensation and been told "We're looking at possible bonus payments" and that they'll allow us informal time to unwind after.

I can't help but feeling by the time we even make it to Kyiv, late on a Sunday after a 14 hour car journey, we'd be really tired. Well I would, as I struggle to relax.

But this is taking up two weekends... plus an entire week away and obviously in Kyiv where there is a curfew and have recently been several attacks which led to deaths.

Can I ask for a sanity check here? Am I overthinking this (I do this a lot)... maybe you'd be fine with this or be equally concerned and a bit doubtful over it all? All of this work can be done remotely and this is acknowledged, but as it's a new client, they want to make them feel important and valued. <insert eyeroll>

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

I have been to Ukriane many times, but I would not be going at the moment. I'd refer your management to current FCO advice, and the situtation around security and insurance.A new client/sales visit seems unnecessary to me - Can you compromise and meet them in Warsaw?

[ecs]

You're a software developer (the OG WFH job) and they want you to go on-site to a warzone?

[shirt]

Was going to say the same. If it absolutely has to be F2F, do it in a mutually convenient location and cover the client’s travel expenses. I’m guessing that everything involved thereafter will be handled remotely so justification to go to their premises at all is tenuous at best.

[Wills2]

The idea sounds fantastical, use Teams or Zoom, my thoughts are that the OP is making it up.

[CivicDuties]

Dear Boss,

If you want to make this new client feel valued and cherished, get on the sodding plane yourself and wine and dine him for a week. I'll be on Teams/Zoom and developing software from my usual workplace.

Yours,
Underling.

[Muzzer79]

There's your answer.

Not in a million years would I be going for a client meeting. If they have a client in a warzone that wants a meeting, they'll be coming to me or meeting me in a nearby country where there isn't a war on.

I'm surprised they've even suggested it tbh.

[selwonk]

I'd be amazed if you could even get insurance for the trip so its massive exposure to you and your family. No bloody chance!

[ItIsPrivate]

Wills2 said:

The idea sounds fantastical, use Teams or Zoom, my thoughts are that the OP is making it up.

I'm pretty pee'd off with this tbh. I'm not making this up and I even referred to anxiety and stress issues I am also encountering - a large part caused by this possible trip.

It's been spoken about before Christmas, with contracts and retainers being signed over the holiday period. This week I was informed of dates and possible timelines/travel arragements.

I know you probably didn't intend to upset me here, but when someone in a "help me" type thread is accused of making it up, it's hard not to get a bit annoyed about it.

[Scabutz]

This is insanity. Given the FCO advises against travel your employer is surely failing in your duty of care to send you there? Plus as someone else says, software engineering is the king of remote jobs. I have 11 devs in Ukraine that work for me. They are in Kiyv. Worked with them for years and only ever met one of them when he came over here few years back.

If I said to them we are popping over for a visit they would say dont be so bloody stupid.

Personally I would be getting my CV up to date and finding an employer that doesnt think sending me to an active war zone is a good idea.

ETA - about doing it someone else like Warsaw. All military aged males are banned from leaving Ukraine, even temporarily so that wont work. My guys had to travel to the Poland border when it started and watch the wife and kids cross while they returned home. I have a guy who works in London, does now have a UK passport, but wont travel home as he is concerned he wont then be able to leave

[cookie1600]

I would have thought this was quite a simple one to say no to.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine/h...

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine/s...

Can your company even get insurance for you to travel to/in a war-zone? If you go, you or your company are directly going against Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office travel advice.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine

[ItIsPrivate]

Muzzer79 said:

Not in a million years would I be going for a client meeting. If they have a client in a warzone that wants a meeting, they'll be coming to me or meeting me in a nearby country where there isn't a war on.

I'm surprised they've even suggested it tbh.

Funnily enough I found that same screenshot about two weeks ago and raised it to my Director.

[bigandclever]

"No thanks" seems to be the most appropriate response.

[55palfers]

Ask to see the risk assessment your employer needs to complete for this visit.

RA should be completed by specialists NOT your company H&S bod

What arrangements have been made for training, insurance and PPE?

This approach will be easier than a flat refusal to travel

[Muzzer79]

ItIsPrivate said:

Muzzer79 said:

Not in a million years would I be going for a client meeting. If they have a client in a warzone that wants a meeting, they'll be coming to me or meeting me in a nearby country where there isn't a war on.

I'm surprised they've even suggested it tbh.

Funnily enough I found that same screenshot about two weeks ago and raised it to my Director.

What did he say?

If you go, you won't be insured which means that if something happens to you, you'll be screwed.

Not to mention the obvious other fringe problems........like potentially being bombed.

Have you worked at this company long? Are you valued? Do you enjoy it?
If the answers to the first two questions are Yes then I'd just refuse to go.

[ClaphamGT3]

This is insanity. No credible business would even think of sending staff into Ukraine at the moment.

What size/type of business do you work for and at what level has this trip been authorised?

[Sporky]

Gosh no.

I refused to do a work trip to Belarus (with no repercussions) about 20-25 years ago and that wasn't nearly as risky. FCO advice was "don't unless you have to", my employer at the time accepted that. Someone else volunteered and enjoyed it, but this is another degree of danger.

[cookie1600]

ClaphamGT3 said:

This is insanity. No credible business would even think of sending staff into Ukraine at the moment.

What size/type of business do you work for and at what level has this trip been authorised?

Accept this trip and your next one will be an informal meeting with a client in Gaza.....

[Mr Penguin]

What field do you work in and what is the purpose of the trip? If you work for a defence contractor and the visit is to show you their new drones including testing then a client visit could be extremely useful, but it may also be possible to get what you need from a video call with them as they walk around the factory.

If its simply to keep the owner of a teddy bear manufacturer happy to encourage him to renew his contract later then its easier to say that it isn't essential and you can meet in a third country or over Skype.

I would also be trying to get out of that trip or at the very least getting a very big bonus and time off in exchange.

Edit: Sending someone to Ukraine is such an obviously stupid thing to do that I think there probably is a good reason for the trip.

Edited by Mr Penguin on Wednesday 3rd January 10:51

[shirt]

55palfers said:

Ask to see the risk assessment your employer needs to complete for this visit.

RA should be completed by specialists NOT your company H&S bod

What arrangements have been made for training, insurance and PPE?

This approach will be easier than a flat refusal to travel

As the OP is clearly stressing out over this, would agree with this approach. If he subsequently refuses to travel then their lack of process will protect him in any subsequent employment action.

In my previous role we were able to refuse travel to any high risk location, the risk profile being determined by a third party such as control risks group.

Even for medium risk locations there would be:

- full risk report and security plan which would be issued to all personnel.

- visit by regional security team to vet transport / security contractors, vet hotels etc.

- travel plan. Even for a single person this would mean a 3 vehicle convoy, one vehicle purely being for backup in case of breakdown. All vehicles gps tracked with panic buttons, armed security if required, multiple approved routes for longer trips to avoid routine.

- all staff trained, phones tracked, daily check in calls if required.

- evacuation plan. This should also cover medical evacuation. No commercial travel to be used, Usually involves helicopters and private jets. Onsite medical team required if location is especially remote.

- daily contact call between regional security manager, local security officer, full site team and client.


Note that this was for a ftse listed engineering/construction company mainly working in Africa and Asia. I’ve been to many such locations and never once felt any kind of risk or danger, but then a 3 day unplanned jolly for a completely avoidable meeting wouldn’t have gone further than the first email suggesting it.