Manager told me to stop trying so hard!?
Discussion
Not really sure where to start with this one. I’ll start writing and you can let me know in the comments if it makes sense. The more I think about it the more complicated it becomes… would’ve been better to sit down at a computer and draft this up properly, but I’ve been thinking of posting it for some time now, a quiet Nightshift with my phone to hand seems like as good a time as any to start the ball rolling.
Background:
I work in the energy sector, in a power station operations role. Total career change from the motor trade in 2018, and was accepted into a 4 year technician trainee scheme. (Phew)
The first 2 years of the training scheme earned me a directly related HNC, and an additional level 2 qualification plus a myriad of ‘in house’ company developed specific training courses and qualifications in addition to other external qualifications like IOSH Working/Managing safely etc. The last 2 years have been spent essentially doing the role I’m now in, working between all the different shift teams seeing the way things are done differently between shifts - pros and cons included.
We run shifts of 3 - one supervisor and two techs. Each pay grade has a Competency based Pay Matrix, consisting of 9 ‘pay points’. A1 is effectively having reached base competence for the role and A3 is the minimum point for full competence. The expectation is that you progress one pay point yearly. You can progress beyond this but need to show development beyond basic competence. I’m cool with this. In fact, I’d go so far as to say I’m a huge advocate of this.
So in May last year I applied for a Supervisor role, with recommendation and support from my colleagues to do so. I didn’t get the job - I didn’t expect to. The main purpose was to gain the experience of interviewing for a job at that level. Regardless, I prepared as well as I could, the interview actually felt like it went really well and the initial feedback, whilst I felt it was lacking in depth was, that it was a good interview. (This interview was with the production manager)
Towards the end of June this year, an opportunity arose to apply for an entirely different role, as a (seconded) project manager for a project at my base location which I had always shown keen interest in. I didn’t really expect to get this either, but again on the premise of nothing ventured, nothing gained I went for it. I prepared for the interview very well, spoke with the person currently performing the role at length, had answers for all questions and throughout the interview everything felt positive. I felt like despite thinking it was above me I might just get it. Anyway, I didn’t, feedback was that it was actually a great interview but they felt it was unfair to put such a heavily scrutinised project into the shoulders of someone who they felt didn’t have any project management experience. This interview was with the plant manager, who is very new to the business and after a good feedback session he suggested that we put together a development plan so that I’m better placed for future.
After this discussion with the plant manager, I had a chat with the production manager, who is my manager above my supervisor. I got the impression that he was disgruntled I had applied for the secondment role without telling him - though I did tell my supervisor. The conversation went in various ways - at my interview for the supervisor role he effectively pushed me for an answer ‘off the record’ if there was anyone I would prefer not to work with, because it was important for my development that they put me into a permanent position on a team where I could continue to develop. I grudgingly named a person, and you guessed it, that’s who I’m on shift with, it’s definitely having a detrimental effect on my enjoyment of work but that’s another topic. Or is it? We discussed this as some length, I still don’t think he understands that I feel betrayed by this.
Anyway, and I’m paraphrasing to an extent but the conversation eventually turned to my progression and he said that it feels like I just need to chill out and stop always looking to do more, which as I said previously sounds crazy coming from a manager. Surely their role is to foster the development of their team for the benefit of the whole organisation?
He joked that ‘it feels like if the plant manager role was to be advertised, the whole department wouldn’t be surprised to hear that I’d put in for it’
Thinking more about it now, going back to when I was just over 2 years into my training I was encouraged by the (then) plant manager to apply for a maintenance role, he made it out that it would be little more than a paperwork exercise and would just be a case of interviewing for the role, and he would have to have a chat with the training centre and swap my contract to a permanent one. The current production manager was at that point the maintenance manager hiring for the role and he accepted my application then turned me down before even taking it to interview. I felt let down by this too.
I guess I just need to gauge, am I in the wrong? I’m certainly feeling very demotivated, and I’m certainly not giving my all in what is a very complex situation. There’s talk of introducing an intermediate role between tech and supervisor, which I feel I should apply for, but should I not? Would that make me more of a laughing stock? On paper I’m more qualified than a great number of my colleagues, and I’ve shown that I’m able to apply my abilities - not just on paper.
Am I being treated fairly? I tend to just get on with things, but something isn’t sitting well with me over all of this. Im a member of a union, do I speak to them for their take on it? Do I speak to HR, for their take on it, or does that just get me more ‘enemies’?
I hope this doesn’t seem like one huge ramble, and that some of you can take a modicum of sense from it.
Background:
I work in the energy sector, in a power station operations role. Total career change from the motor trade in 2018, and was accepted into a 4 year technician trainee scheme. (Phew)
The first 2 years of the training scheme earned me a directly related HNC, and an additional level 2 qualification plus a myriad of ‘in house’ company developed specific training courses and qualifications in addition to other external qualifications like IOSH Working/Managing safely etc. The last 2 years have been spent essentially doing the role I’m now in, working between all the different shift teams seeing the way things are done differently between shifts - pros and cons included.
We run shifts of 3 - one supervisor and two techs. Each pay grade has a Competency based Pay Matrix, consisting of 9 ‘pay points’. A1 is effectively having reached base competence for the role and A3 is the minimum point for full competence. The expectation is that you progress one pay point yearly. You can progress beyond this but need to show development beyond basic competence. I’m cool with this. In fact, I’d go so far as to say I’m a huge advocate of this.
So in May last year I applied for a Supervisor role, with recommendation and support from my colleagues to do so. I didn’t get the job - I didn’t expect to. The main purpose was to gain the experience of interviewing for a job at that level. Regardless, I prepared as well as I could, the interview actually felt like it went really well and the initial feedback, whilst I felt it was lacking in depth was, that it was a good interview. (This interview was with the production manager)
Towards the end of June this year, an opportunity arose to apply for an entirely different role, as a (seconded) project manager for a project at my base location which I had always shown keen interest in. I didn’t really expect to get this either, but again on the premise of nothing ventured, nothing gained I went for it. I prepared for the interview very well, spoke with the person currently performing the role at length, had answers for all questions and throughout the interview everything felt positive. I felt like despite thinking it was above me I might just get it. Anyway, I didn’t, feedback was that it was actually a great interview but they felt it was unfair to put such a heavily scrutinised project into the shoulders of someone who they felt didn’t have any project management experience. This interview was with the plant manager, who is very new to the business and after a good feedback session he suggested that we put together a development plan so that I’m better placed for future.
After this discussion with the plant manager, I had a chat with the production manager, who is my manager above my supervisor. I got the impression that he was disgruntled I had applied for the secondment role without telling him - though I did tell my supervisor. The conversation went in various ways - at my interview for the supervisor role he effectively pushed me for an answer ‘off the record’ if there was anyone I would prefer not to work with, because it was important for my development that they put me into a permanent position on a team where I could continue to develop. I grudgingly named a person, and you guessed it, that’s who I’m on shift with, it’s definitely having a detrimental effect on my enjoyment of work but that’s another topic. Or is it? We discussed this as some length, I still don’t think he understands that I feel betrayed by this.
Anyway, and I’m paraphrasing to an extent but the conversation eventually turned to my progression and he said that it feels like I just need to chill out and stop always looking to do more, which as I said previously sounds crazy coming from a manager. Surely their role is to foster the development of their team for the benefit of the whole organisation?
He joked that ‘it feels like if the plant manager role was to be advertised, the whole department wouldn’t be surprised to hear that I’d put in for it’
Thinking more about it now, going back to when I was just over 2 years into my training I was encouraged by the (then) plant manager to apply for a maintenance role, he made it out that it would be little more than a paperwork exercise and would just be a case of interviewing for the role, and he would have to have a chat with the training centre and swap my contract to a permanent one. The current production manager was at that point the maintenance manager hiring for the role and he accepted my application then turned me down before even taking it to interview. I felt let down by this too.
I guess I just need to gauge, am I in the wrong? I’m certainly feeling very demotivated, and I’m certainly not giving my all in what is a very complex situation. There’s talk of introducing an intermediate role between tech and supervisor, which I feel I should apply for, but should I not? Would that make me more of a laughing stock? On paper I’m more qualified than a great number of my colleagues, and I’ve shown that I’m able to apply my abilities - not just on paper.
Am I being treated fairly? I tend to just get on with things, but something isn’t sitting well with me over all of this. Im a member of a union, do I speak to them for their take on it? Do I speak to HR, for their take on it, or does that just get me more ‘enemies’?
I hope this doesn’t seem like one huge ramble, and that some of you can take a modicum of sense from it.
Edited by John3l on Wednesday 9th August 00:56
Sounds to me like your being passed over because your face doesnt fit with the current management.
Sit back do your job to satisfactory standards. Bide your time, management will change soon enough and as the old saying goes 'whats for you wont go by you'.
I have done this several times and each time ended up with the promotion I wanted. Im now happy where I am earning a wage Im happy with.
Sit back do your job to satisfactory standards. Bide your time, management will change soon enough and as the old saying goes 'whats for you wont go by you'.
I have done this several times and each time ended up with the promotion I wanted. Im now happy where I am earning a wage Im happy with.
You pretty much said that you weren't quite ready for the supervisor role, but applied for it for the interview experience. The reason for you not getting the project manager role sounds plausible. A manager wouldn't give a large high profile project to someone with no experience of the job or management.
They may want to keep you where you are because you are doing a great job in that role, and it would be hassle to replace you if you moved up the hierarchy.
They may want to keep you where you are because you are doing a great job in that role, and it would be hassle to replace you if you moved up the hierarchy.
The issue is with your Production Manager. From what you've described, I would suggest that he sees you as a threat - to his reputation, standing and possibly to his position, recognising your potential and skills as being greater than his. For as long as he has influence, he will be a barrier to your progression.
I wouldn't go marching off to HR or your Union just yet. There's nothing tangible to address other than a negative reaction to your desire to progress. The only time you should engage with them is if there's evidence that he (or anyone else) has pro-actively hindered your application for roles.
Bide your time. Keep applying for roles as and when the arise. Keep him informed and ignore his suggestions to ease off. He can say that but has no legal right to force you to do so.
Sooner or later, cream rises to the top.
I wouldn't go marching off to HR or your Union just yet. There's nothing tangible to address other than a negative reaction to your desire to progress. The only time you should engage with them is if there's evidence that he (or anyone else) has pro-actively hindered your application for roles.
Bide your time. Keep applying for roles as and when the arise. Keep him informed and ignore his suggestions to ease off. He can say that but has no legal right to force you to do so.
Sooner or later, cream rises to the top.
Don’t listen to the manager and keep pushing hard, be clear about your goals. Good people leave bad business’ and bad managers so keep a look out for external jobs and get your cv out to recruiters too. If the company don’t recognise and support ambition and determination find a place that does. Keep doing a great job in your current role and don’t lose the fire in you. Have you considered seeking a mentor within the business?
John3l said:
To be clear, I’m not bothered about not getting the roles I’ve applied for.
It’s more the ‘stop trying so hard’ attitude I’m opposed to.
He said that it was like I had tried too hard in the interview. What is the point of an interview if not to try hard?
It sounds to me like they think you're not ready for the steps up that you're trying to take but, because you apply, they're obliged to interview you, and you're creating noise that they could do without.It’s more the ‘stop trying so hard’ attitude I’m opposed to.
He said that it was like I had tried too hard in the interview. What is the point of an interview if not to try hard?
From what you've written it seems like, having only just completed your 4 year traineeship, you need to get some miles under your belt before getting a more senior role. I can understand that, but what you do about it is up to you, I'm afraid.
I'll put a different viewpoint to everyone else so far. In my large multinational company we sometimes see people like what you sound like. They are all gung ho just wanting to climb the greasy pole as fast as possible. Role doesn't matter, they just want to go up and up by any means necessary.
The majority of these crash and burn eventually as they only care about their progression and goals and not the bigger company picture. Some do make it, probably by calming down, but most don't end up doing well for the company. Maybe the bosses are getting this kind of vibe from you? Maybe relax a little and wait for the right role to come up?
I may be completely wrong but it is worth considering.
The majority of these crash and burn eventually as they only care about their progression and goals and not the bigger company picture. Some do make it, probably by calming down, but most don't end up doing well for the company. Maybe the bosses are getting this kind of vibe from you? Maybe relax a little and wait for the right role to come up?
I may be completely wrong but it is worth considering.
Another different perspective...perhaps your manager feels you are trying for any job just to get away from his team and he's taking it personally. Also, how much time are you spending in your role prepping for these interviews? It does sound like you need to focus on your current role, getting more experience and showing your value there - and try winning over the manager as often they can block secondments.
However, we're all only guessing, could be your enthusiasm gets you where you need to be, it just sounds a bit unfocussed.
However, we're all only guessing, could be your enthusiasm gets you where you need to be, it just sounds a bit unfocussed.
There are quite some layers to this - (for context I am an HR Director at a large FMCG)
Many managers (especially mid levels) like a settled team, with high contentment. It means everyone knows the job, the machines run and they don't have to bother their asses too much with 'people' stuff.
The other thing is it seem likely you work in a stable environment where people have long tenure, experience is measured in years and promotions and rewards come as a result of time served and not performance. Indeed it sounds like it is not a meritocratic environment at some level.
So the comment to stop trying so hard, might be intrepreted as - good things will happen to you in the future, just focus on your current role and wait your turn. This will be demotivating to ambitious people which I suspect its why you are confused about it.
I also LOVE this idea that we can't put you into the role because you don't have a particular skill (project management) this is such old fashioned thinking. When you hire people for intelligence and learning ability, you just promote them and let them figure it out, you support them, maybe a business mentor or a coach and stretch them, people only grow skills and develop when put under stretch or challenge.
Anyway - if your current shop won't promote you and you are more ambitious then you need to move to a more meritocratic place. Or you can wait as some others have suggested.
Personally I have not been a fan of waiting for Jam tomorrow.
Gargamel said:
I also LOVE this idea that we can't put you into the role because you don't have a particular skill (project management) this is such old fashioned thinking. When you hire people for intelligence and learning ability, you just promote them and let them figure it out, you support them, maybe a business mentor or a coach and stretch them, people only grow skills and develop when put under stretch or challenge.
Completely concur with most of this, but I personally wouldn't be a fan of putting a brand new project manager in charge of a high profile important project.randlemarcus said:
Gargamel said:
I also LOVE this idea that we can't put you into the role because you don't have a particular skill (project management) this is such old fashioned thinking. When you hire people for intelligence and learning ability, you just promote them and let them figure it out, you support them, maybe a business mentor or a coach and stretch them, people only grow skills and develop when put under stretch or challenge.
Completely concur with most of this, but I personally wouldn't be a fan of putting a brand new project manager in charge of a high profile important project.Sounds to be like a mismatch in expectations on progression.
From what i can tell, you're recently out of training and now applying for supervisory\managerial roles. Nothing wrong with ambition, but the expectation in the business may be that you work in-role for 2-3 years before being seriously considered for more senior posts.
Might be worth seeking out someone friendly who knows and understands how the business works in these respects, and it's the kind of thing that no HR page or recruitment guide is going to truly tell you.
Another thing I see is you applying for essentially any promotion post available. I saw a similar thing recently and my comment was "they're more interested in the grade than the role itself". It may be better overall to think about your path and apply for roles in a more targeted fashion.
Oh, and - NOTHING is ever truly off the record.
You started a 4yr apprenticeship in 2018 & last May you applied for a supervisor position ? How long out your time were you, as it can’t have been long?
Sounds a bit too keen to me. You probably need to bide your time until you’ve built up some experience & they know what you’re capable of delivering.
In my work (similar job/industry) they’d want to see many years of constant good appraisals before considering supervision. They’ll want to map your performance & ability over some time before allowing you to lead a team.
Same with any project lead type job, theres a lot riding on project delivery and they won’t be looking for someone with little experience and no project management experience.
Probably wise to take a step back and let things settle out for a while, excel in the job you do and try to pick up some small bits of extra responsibility here and there to show your ability. Maybe at your next appraisal ask for a development plan as you are still interested in progressing.
That’s how I see it, I’m not sure what the culture is at your place for promotion but it sounds very eager very soon.
Sounds a bit too keen to me. You probably need to bide your time until you’ve built up some experience & they know what you’re capable of delivering.
In my work (similar job/industry) they’d want to see many years of constant good appraisals before considering supervision. They’ll want to map your performance & ability over some time before allowing you to lead a team.
Same with any project lead type job, theres a lot riding on project delivery and they won’t be looking for someone with little experience and no project management experience.
Probably wise to take a step back and let things settle out for a while, excel in the job you do and try to pick up some small bits of extra responsibility here and there to show your ability. Maybe at your next appraisal ask for a development plan as you are still interested in progressing.
That’s how I see it, I’m not sure what the culture is at your place for promotion but it sounds very eager very soon.
I always loved people like you as it is easier to guide a person who wants to get on than drag someone along who really is not interested in change.
There are far more people who are happy to stick where they are rather than move up.
As the HR guy said if you are good enough then look to move elsewhere but be 100% sure you are ready for the step up especially if the people above you are poor examples.
No one gets on without effort and self belief
There are far more people who are happy to stick where they are rather than move up.
As the HR guy said if you are good enough then look to move elsewhere but be 100% sure you are ready for the step up especially if the people above you are poor examples.
No one gets on without effort and self belief
John3l said:
laughing stock?
Gilded evidence that you have monumentally overthought this. Classic ‘late night’ thoughts. I know them well!Boss has made a throw-away remark which they have already forgotten they have made (about trying too hard) and you have tied yourself up like a pretzel catastrophising it.
Take his advice, chill, regroup, apply for any and all roles you want. Don’t change. Maybe just relax a bit!
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
The secondment was at my current location and would have in my mind given me the opportunity to do something different and really understand the project. Once implemented it would have been fantastic experience for returning to my current role. I have a lot of previous work experience, this training program didn’t come to me until later in my working life. I’m now 34, so not like I joined the training as a school leaver.
The trouble I have is that the supervisor role didn’t exist until the point at which I applied for it. There were Lead operators, and none of them did any supervisory type work, at least not in a line management capacity. So I felt that my past experience in previous jobs managing workshop teams put me in a good position - I know it might sound like it, but I didn’t really apply for any of the roles on a whim.
I then saw 3 of the 5 previous leads taking up supervisor roles, and 2 previous techs stepping up. My supervisor is one of those who stepped up. I feel this was based more on time in the company rather than on competency. I’m quite involved with upper management above my site level as I represent the division into which my site falls in what is called a business review forum - it’s been likened to a shop steward. So I’m normally always pretty hot on the HR developments, new policies and ways of working. Any new processes we’re tasked with almost become my obsession until I fully understand them, others have what I would deep to be a lack lustre approach. My supervisor is the first to admit that he comes to me if there’s something he doesn’t understand or if he needs help finding in the knowledgebase, or SAP, Overtime approvals etc.
A few of the posts in this thread seem to suggest that my desire for progression is self centred, and whilst it probably is to an extent, (it has to be, I go to work to fund my lifestyle as much as the next guy) I see a department and an operating unit that could do better, commercially and for it’s people and I feel like I can be an instrumental part of that - so it’s not all about me.
The company run a coaching and mentorship program, I have this in place and I’m waiting on my first meetings with both.
The way that I see it is that I am in a position where I’ve spent the last 4/5 years grafting, and I could now sit back, do the bare minimum and simply take a (relatively substantial) wage, like some of my peers. I don’t want to stop learning and developing though. Joining the training program felt like a life line when at the time I was in a dead end job after forced redundancy from a previous ‘career path’ it’s opened my eyes to my potential, what’s out there and what I’m capable of. I just want to go get it, if they’ll let me.
The secondment was at my current location and would have in my mind given me the opportunity to do something different and really understand the project. Once implemented it would have been fantastic experience for returning to my current role. I have a lot of previous work experience, this training program didn’t come to me until later in my working life. I’m now 34, so not like I joined the training as a school leaver.
The trouble I have is that the supervisor role didn’t exist until the point at which I applied for it. There were Lead operators, and none of them did any supervisory type work, at least not in a line management capacity. So I felt that my past experience in previous jobs managing workshop teams put me in a good position - I know it might sound like it, but I didn’t really apply for any of the roles on a whim.
I then saw 3 of the 5 previous leads taking up supervisor roles, and 2 previous techs stepping up. My supervisor is one of those who stepped up. I feel this was based more on time in the company rather than on competency. I’m quite involved with upper management above my site level as I represent the division into which my site falls in what is called a business review forum - it’s been likened to a shop steward. So I’m normally always pretty hot on the HR developments, new policies and ways of working. Any new processes we’re tasked with almost become my obsession until I fully understand them, others have what I would deep to be a lack lustre approach. My supervisor is the first to admit that he comes to me if there’s something he doesn’t understand or if he needs help finding in the knowledgebase, or SAP, Overtime approvals etc.
A few of the posts in this thread seem to suggest that my desire for progression is self centred, and whilst it probably is to an extent, (it has to be, I go to work to fund my lifestyle as much as the next guy) I see a department and an operating unit that could do better, commercially and for it’s people and I feel like I can be an instrumental part of that - so it’s not all about me.
The company run a coaching and mentorship program, I have this in place and I’m waiting on my first meetings with both.
The way that I see it is that I am in a position where I’ve spent the last 4/5 years grafting, and I could now sit back, do the bare minimum and simply take a (relatively substantial) wage, like some of my peers. I don’t want to stop learning and developing though. Joining the training program felt like a life line when at the time I was in a dead end job after forced redundancy from a previous ‘career path’ it’s opened my eyes to my potential, what’s out there and what I’m capable of. I just want to go get it, if they’ll let me.
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