Expenses query.

Author
Discussion

Anastie

Original Poster:

193 posts

165 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
I have a non contracted role in the NHS. It’s very much a case of being able to pick and choose when I work as I’m now retired. We invoice the hospital and they pay us off payroll through a third party pay roll company PAYE.

The role is paid per session. For the last few years when we are on training for the day they have paid us for two sessions covering am and pm.

We recently completed a days training and they have decided to only pay us for one session rather the two. Effectively cutting the pay on a training day by 50%.

I’m asking if this is legal as far as employment law is concerned? Does custom and practice come into play having always been paid two sessions for a days training.

Advice appreciated

mmm-five

11,440 posts

291 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Is this an invoice for 'expenses' as per your title, or an invoice for payment for work done?

Do you normally submit invoices for every session?

Are the sessions of a set length (and has this been agreed somewhere)?

Are you saying they've refused to pay for the second session?

Are you really on a professional 'day rate', so you get paid the same whether it be 1 hour or 24 hours (like me).

Rufus Stone

8,247 posts

63 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Anastie said:
I have a non contracted role in the NHS. It’s very much a case of being able to pick and choose when I work as I’m now retired. We invoice the hospital and they pay us off payroll through a third party pay roll company PAYE.

The role is paid per session. For the last few years when we are on training for the day they have paid us for two sessions covering am and pm.

We recently completed a days training and they have decided to only pay us for one session rather the two. Effectively cutting the pay on a training day by 50%.

I’m asking if this is legal as far as employment law is concerned? Does custom and practice come into play having always been paid two sessions for a days training.

Advice appreciated
All very confusing. Sounds like you are a contractor but you claim not contracted. You mention employment law when you are not a NHS employee.

Who invoices the NHS for the training services?

Anastie

Original Poster:

193 posts

165 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Sorry I was trying to keep it anonymized but probably too vague!

I sit on panels for the NHS. We are classed as independent of hospital trusts but used to be paid directly by them.

Because this role was meant to be independent of the hospitals they decided to pay us off payroll through an independent payroll company. This is why we submit an "invoice" previously it was called "expenses". It's a set fee plus any travel. This fee for example is £30 per panel sat on. If we do 5 panels sessions we submit an "invoice" for £30 x 5

We receive training a handful of times each year. This training has previously been classed as 2 sessions for a full day so we would get paid for example £30 x 2.

They have now decided to pay us after receiving training for a full day for only 1 session example £30 x1. So effectively halving what we used to get paid for a day's training.

Im querying if this is legal?

PorkInsider

6,044 posts

148 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Does the NHS issue a purchase order or some other form of contract that covers whatever sessions you're doing?

Are you actually an employee of the umbrella company?

Anastie

Original Poster:

193 posts

165 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
PorkInsider said:
Does the NHS issue a purchase order or some other form of contract that covers whatever sessions you're doing?

Are you actually an employee of the umbrella company?
No. No form of contract at all. And not employed as such

carl_w

9,544 posts

265 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Seems to me this was in the correct forum in the first place, and this is a matter of contract law (between the NHS and the payroll provider) rather than employment law.

Anastie

Original Poster:

193 posts

165 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Apologies if it was in the wrong section.

Regards to it being contract law. We don't have contracts for this work so how could it be?

mmm-five

11,440 posts

291 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
You must have some sort of 'agreement' with the payroll company, and they must have some sort of agreement with the NHS.

Those are probably the bits that form the contract.

Countdown

42,051 posts

203 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Anastie said:
I have a non contracted role in the NHS. It’s very much a case of being able to pick and choose when I work as I’m now retired. We invoice the hospital and they pay us off payroll through a third party pay roll company PAYE.

The role is paid per session. For the last few years when we are on training for the day they have paid us for two sessions covering am and pm.

We recently completed a days training and they have decided to only pay us for one session rather the two. Effectively cutting the pay on a training day by 50%.

I’m asking if this is legal as far as employment law is concerned? Does custom and practice come into play having always been paid two sessions for a days training.

Advice appreciated
Ive come across these a few times.

You should have had some kind of Contract with the NHS Trust that you work for which sets out what you will be doing and how you'll get paid. It's an "inside" role which is why they've insisted you use an Umbrella company. The agreement/Contract should have set out what you would get paid along with what expenses you might be entitled to claim.

The Trust will have a Policy on employing freelancers/"panel experts"/laypeople. You shoud ask their HR team for a copy if you don't already have one. Once youve read the Policy that might give you grounds for challenging the underpayment. If it doesn't then you have two options.Use MCOL or (if you want to keep working for them) suck it up.


Anastie

Original Poster:

193 posts

165 months

Friday 24th February 2023
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Ive come across these a few times.

You should have had some kind of Contract with the NHS Trust that you work for which sets out what you will be doing and how you'll get paid. It's an "inside" role which is why they've insisted you use an Umbrella company. The agreement/Contract should have set out what you would get paid along with what expenses you might be entitled to claim.

The Trust will have a Policy on employing freelancers/"panel experts"/laypeople. You shoud ask their HR team for a copy if you don't already have one. Once youve read the Policy that might give you grounds for challenging the underpayment. If it doesn't then you have two options.Use MCOL or (if you want to keep working for them) suck it up.
Thanks for this and all the other replies. Things moved quickly when I challenged this. They have now backed down and said the change was made in error!!!