Working Abroad for an Extended Period - Sensible Package?
Discussion
Since I left my old place of employment I have stayed in touch with the apprentice I used to mentor there, and he still asks me for advice on things from time to time.
I received a message from him today with regard to spending 1 full year in Sweden working at a clients site. This may also be extended beyond the 1 year.
The package be has nee offered is -
Company to provide a house/flat that he will have to share with 1 unknown other.
No uplift in wage. (He will be on significantly less than £40k currently)
£25 allowance per day to cover all expenses, Monday to Friday only.
Flights home for pre booked time off will be covered, but he has to give the dates he requires them for now.
I’ve worked away from home extensively before and have always been well looked after so what I would expect may not be in line with what is reasonable to expect.
Any thoughts on the package offered to him? Personally I think it’s a joke.
What would be reasonable to expect?
I received a message from him today with regard to spending 1 full year in Sweden working at a clients site. This may also be extended beyond the 1 year.
The package be has nee offered is -
Company to provide a house/flat that he will have to share with 1 unknown other.
No uplift in wage. (He will be on significantly less than £40k currently)
£25 allowance per day to cover all expenses, Monday to Friday only.
Flights home for pre booked time off will be covered, but he has to give the dates he requires them for now.
I’ve worked away from home extensively before and have always been well looked after so what I would expect may not be in line with what is reasonable to expect.
Any thoughts on the package offered to him? Personally I think it’s a joke.
What would be reasonable to expect?
Doesn't sound compelling, does it? Shared accommodation, fine. Wages uplift, not fine -Sweden is quite expensive. Per diem is low for all meals. Travel for time off requested up front - not unreasonable, and avoids last minute fares on a fairly business heavy route.
Big question is what the reaction will be to him saying no?
Big question is what the reaction will be to him saying no?
I've worked abroad on 4 separate occasions, in total for 13 years. Admittedly, its always been for a large global corporate. However, 2 things the company offered which eliminated a lot of the worry were i) tax equalisation (in other words cover the cost if you head to a higher tax environment - deffo the case here for Sweden) and ii) cost of living equalisation (make sure your spending power is the same in the new country as it is in your home country - UK & Sweden seem very similar looking at various cost of living indices). Might be worth trying to factor something to cover the likelihood of a higher tax rate.
One final thought....money isn't everything. Assume the person is young(ish). The experience of living/working abroad will be priceless in terms of life experience, contacts, self-sufficiency etc, etc. I'd always advise someone to take the plunge, even if the financials don't necessarly stack up.
You don't say what field of work he is in, but I'd agree that on the surface of it that isn't an especially compelling offer.
Them offering accommodation as part of the package is good - rents are generally speaking high in Sweden - but your £25/day could easily be taken up by commuting costs alone if the flat isn't close to the workplace so he should check that out.
That said I do agree with the previous point that working away from home is a great experience in and of itself, particularly when young. So I would be considering the long-term gain both professionally and personally and making every effort to make the package work, rather than trying to nickel-and-dime the offer itself.
Them offering accommodation as part of the package is good - rents are generally speaking high in Sweden - but your £25/day could easily be taken up by commuting costs alone if the flat isn't close to the workplace so he should check that out.
That said I do agree with the previous point that working away from home is a great experience in and of itself, particularly when young. So I would be considering the long-term gain both professionally and personally and making every effort to make the package work, rather than trying to nickel-and-dime the offer itself.
airsafari87 said:
Since I left my old place of employment I have stayed in touch with the apprentice I used to mentor there, and he still asks me for advice on things from time to time.
I received a message from him today with regard to spending 1 full year in Sweden working at a clients site. This may also be extended beyond the 1 year.
The package be has nee offered is -
Company to provide a house/flat that he will have to share with 1 unknown other.
No uplift in wage. (He will be on significantly less than £40k currently)
£25 allowance per day to cover all expenses, Monday to Friday only.
Flights home for pre booked time off will be covered, but he has to give the dates he requires them for now.
I’ve worked away from home extensively before and have always been well looked after so what I would expect may not be in line with what is reasonable to expect.
Any thoughts on the package offered to him? Personally I think it’s a joke.
What would be reasonable to expect?
It's hard to judge how good the package is without knowing more about the role but the main thing is that what would be rubbish for one person might be great for somebody else depending on their personal circumstances.I received a message from him today with regard to spending 1 full year in Sweden working at a clients site. This may also be extended beyond the 1 year.
The package be has nee offered is -
Company to provide a house/flat that he will have to share with 1 unknown other.
No uplift in wage. (He will be on significantly less than £40k currently)
£25 allowance per day to cover all expenses, Monday to Friday only.
Flights home for pre booked time off will be covered, but he has to give the dates he requires them for now.
I’ve worked away from home extensively before and have always been well looked after so what I would expect may not be in line with what is reasonable to expect.
Any thoughts on the package offered to him? Personally I think it’s a joke.
What would be reasonable to expect?
For example if he's renting at the moment then free accommodation is a great benefit. The £25 per day might not sound like a lot but it's basically an £8k before tax salary uplift. And finally, if he's got no commitments, the experience of living in Sweden for a year is a great opportunity.
Thanks for the responses so far.
To cover some of the other points raised.
I believe the job will be related to Fusion? He has had previous exposure on small projects for UKAEA so I assume it’s aligned with that.
Despite being young he is a homeowner and has a long term partner who will remain here in the UK, she is at university still I believe with only a part time job? So he would still need to support her.
The tax implications I have already raised with him and it is a question he is going to ask.
The points about experience and nickel and dimeing are valid, however the reason he approached me is that the company do have a reputation for giving its employees the absolute bare minimum or less if they can get away with it. They also have a history of screwing him over in the past, hence they waryness for him to accept.
One thing I have told him to ask is if he does accept and find that being there negatively impacts him financially, he can return to the UK without any predjudice or the package can be fairly renegotiated and implemented quickly to reverse that impact.
ETA.
The company he is working for typically has around 8 employees. I don’t know how many they have currently? But when I left there 3 months ago they were down to 2 employees, so not a big corporate company by any stretch.
To cover some of the other points raised.
I believe the job will be related to Fusion? He has had previous exposure on small projects for UKAEA so I assume it’s aligned with that.
Despite being young he is a homeowner and has a long term partner who will remain here in the UK, she is at university still I believe with only a part time job? So he would still need to support her.
The tax implications I have already raised with him and it is a question he is going to ask.
The points about experience and nickel and dimeing are valid, however the reason he approached me is that the company do have a reputation for giving its employees the absolute bare minimum or less if they can get away with it. They also have a history of screwing him over in the past, hence they waryness for him to accept.
One thing I have told him to ask is if he does accept and find that being there negatively impacts him financially, he can return to the UK without any predjudice or the package can be fairly renegotiated and implemented quickly to reverse that impact.
ETA.
The company he is working for typically has around 8 employees. I don’t know how many they have currently? But when I left there 3 months ago they were down to 2 employees, so not a big corporate company by any stretch.
Edited by airsafari87 on Thursday 16th February 12:45
Many years ago, I spent a year doing a circular commute between Germany, the US and the UK. I didn't get any extra salary, but I did get fully-expensed appartments and cars in Germany and America, plus all my other spending went on a company credit card. Groceries, clothing, entertainment, travel.
So no extra pay, but I only had to use my own cash when in the UK (home), so I saved a lot of money that year.
So no extra pay, but I only had to use my own cash when in the UK (home), so I saved a lot of money that year.
Not Sweden, but I've lived and and worked in Norway at various times over the last 40 years, and have two children with duel citicenshipp who live and work there. Your assessment is right,
I've seen the Norwegian tax authorities refuse to accept salaries that low and deemed salaries that are much higher and and then assed tax on those higher salaries..
If he is on a client site with a charge out rate this is a real danger.
If it was my son I would tell him to walk away.
I've seen the Norwegian tax authorities refuse to accept salaries that low and deemed salaries that are much higher and and then assed tax on those higher salaries..
If he is on a client site with a charge out rate this is a real danger.
If it was my son I would tell him to walk away.
On the one hand, working abroad for a period time for a younger person something to embrace because the experience is enriching beyond the immediate financial gain that may prevail. It really does broaden your horizons, mind and improves you as an employee and quite often as a person.
On the other hand - Sweden. A country I know well.
It's an expensive country to live in. Even with the £125 a week allowance, by the time he's covered his UK costs, I think he'll find the ability to enjoy his time there highly limited.
Spring and Summer are lovely. Autumn and winter can be miserable. Depending on where you are in the country, you may only see a couple of hours daylight in December to February. I know of people that have had this trigger depression.
And sharing a house or flat with someone you don't know..... this could end up being a hoot. Or nightmare. He'll only know which when he moves in.
I wouldn't say that the offer is a joke. If the lad's a gregarious teetotaller with minimal financial obligations then it's possibly worth a go for the experience if nothing else. But I'd be cautious if none of these apply.
The company should offer a trip there before he commits - see the house/flat. Meet the local team, get to see the area and get a feel for things. Making a 12 month commitment unsighted is unreasonable.
On the other hand - Sweden. A country I know well.
It's an expensive country to live in. Even with the £125 a week allowance, by the time he's covered his UK costs, I think he'll find the ability to enjoy his time there highly limited.
Spring and Summer are lovely. Autumn and winter can be miserable. Depending on where you are in the country, you may only see a couple of hours daylight in December to February. I know of people that have had this trigger depression.
And sharing a house or flat with someone you don't know..... this could end up being a hoot. Or nightmare. He'll only know which when he moves in.
I wouldn't say that the offer is a joke. If the lad's a gregarious teetotaller with minimal financial obligations then it's possibly worth a go for the experience if nothing else. But I'd be cautious if none of these apply.
The company should offer a trip there before he commits - see the house/flat. Meet the local team, get to see the area and get a feel for things. Making a 12 month commitment unsighted is unreasonable.
Edited by StevieBee on Thursday 16th February 14:57
I wouldn't accept that package, as a whole it's a bit stingy. I'd expect it be be significantly more generous than the equivalent job in Sweden, rather than whatever his current UK deal is, and the offer is also probably going to be a step up in responsibility than the exsting role.
I wouldn't accept sharing acommodation for a year or more - what if the other person turns out to be insufferable?
And finally - this is a secondment onto single customer, presumably for a specific single project. What happens at the end of that project? "Welcome back, here's your P45"?
I wouldn't accept sharing acommodation for a year or more - what if the other person turns out to be insufferable?
And finally - this is a secondment onto single customer, presumably for a specific single project. What happens at the end of that project? "Welcome back, here's your P45"?
I was working abroad a lot back in 1990-92 in Portugal, Belgium and Italy. My daily allowance was £25 per day back then!!!! That was also with all my accommodation and a pool car to use for free as well.
I was banking about £70 a week and not touching my salary. (Remember a pint was £1.20ish back then)
In my opinion this is a bad deal..but as others have said, if you're single and no ties you'll have a great time and it may change you life.
I was banking about £70 a week and not touching my salary. (Remember a pint was £1.20ish back then)
In my opinion this is a bad deal..but as others have said, if you're single and no ties you'll have a great time and it may change you life.
Cheers for the replies in here. Some of the points raised were things I hadn’t thought of so I’ve passed them on to him now.
I thought my view was a bit skewed as I worked away for 4 or 5 years and spent almost an entire year in the US working and I was in a great package and treat very well while doing that.
Glad to hear that what I thought was crap, especially for a young lad who has just taken on a mortgage and has a long term partner at home, is actually pretty crap.
I guess he will be sitting down with them in the next day or so to discuss things as I believe they want him out there within the next couple of weeks.
I thought my view was a bit skewed as I worked away for 4 or 5 years and spent almost an entire year in the US working and I was in a great package and treat very well while doing that.
Glad to hear that what I thought was crap, especially for a young lad who has just taken on a mortgage and has a long term partner at home, is actually pretty crap.
I guess he will be sitting down with them in the next day or so to discuss things as I believe they want him out there within the next couple of weeks.
£25 per day will not go far in Sweden, especially so in or near Stockholm.
All round it sounds crap.
They should be maintaining his current quality of life to be abroad and it does sound like they are being stingy.
The main thing is the tax situation, unlikely a small company can assess that internally, they will need specialist advice to protect him and themselves.
As someone posted, he needs to be careful, the company just saying "it's OK" doesn't cut it.
All round it sounds crap.
They should be maintaining his current quality of life to be abroad and it does sound like they are being stingy.
The main thing is the tax situation, unlikely a small company can assess that internally, they will need specialist advice to protect him and themselves.
As someone posted, he needs to be careful, the company just saying "it's OK" doesn't cut it.
He knocked them back late on Friday, so I imagine he will be pulled in for a discussion today.
I gather he’s done his sums and worked out how much extra he will be getting with his daily allowance, and how much it’s going to cost him to sustain himself while he is over there. What had been offered is just not viable for him at all.
Plus when he raised the question of tax implications it was immediately brushed off by the company with something along the lines of ‘You are employed by us so the tax won’t affect you’ which understandably has left him nervous.
I gather he’s done his sums and worked out how much extra he will be getting with his daily allowance, and how much it’s going to cost him to sustain himself while he is over there. What had been offered is just not viable for him at all.
Plus when he raised the question of tax implications it was immediately brushed off by the company with something along the lines of ‘You are employed by us so the tax won’t affect you’ which understandably has left him nervous.
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