Secondment coming to an end

[scoobychris555]

I'm after some help please.
I've worked for my present employer for almost 20 years, I was employed in a role working shifts which came with some financial benefits (bonus, shift pay and scheduled overtime)
For the last 9 + years I've been on a secondment on a days role ( 3 slightly different but related rolls) but maintaining the benefits mentioned above.
It looks likely that this secondment is now coming to an end. It is likely that I will return to a shift based position which doesn't really suit me after building a life around more normal hours. Do I have any rights after such a length of time? eg should the role be permanent after x amount of years etc etc? Should I be entitled to redundancy or should I just suck it up?
I should add that only paperwork I have received was about ten years ago with no timescales mentioned.
Opinions and help much appreciated

[Jasandjules]

IANYL.

I would suspect you have a possible argument that the terms of your contract have been changed to those of the Secondment.... Thus any change would be............

[deja.vu]

Jasandjules said:

IANYL.

I would suspect you have a possible argument that the terms of your contract have been changed to those of the Secondment.... Thus any change would be............

The impact potentially being, they agree and stop paying the bonuses and benefits he’s been paid for 9 years for a job he hasn’t been doing.
I doubt they ask for it back but what are the chances of them spotting it and putting it to an end if he goes down that route?

[simon_harris]

After that length of time surely the current working practice and renumeration have become accepted by both parties and any change would be a new variation of contract?

[Jasandjules]

simon_harris said:

After that length of time surely the current working practice and renumeration have become accepted by both parties and any change would be a new variation of contract?

Exactly.

[Jasandjules]

deja.vu said:

The impact potentially being, they agree and stop paying the bonuses and benefits he’s been paid for 9 years for a job he hasn’t been doing.
I doubt they ask for it back but what are the chances of them spotting it and putting it to an end if he goes down that route?

No he said he is still receiving those benefits. Thus they are still incorporated and that is the point, the benefits are STILL contractually owed and should anything then change when the secondment finishes (such as going back to shifts which include nights as I understand that is the OP's concern), that would be a unilateral change to his contract.

In other words, the contract has been varied by the passage of time to be as per the secondment and any variation to that would be a unilateral change.

[deja.vu]

Jasandjules said:

deja.vu said:

The impact potentially being, they agree and stop paying the bonuses and benefits he’s been paid for 9 years for a job he hasn’t been doing.
I doubt they ask for it back but what are the chances of them spotting it and putting it to an end if he goes down that route?

No he said he is still receiving those benefits. Thus they are still incorporated and that is the point, the benefits are STILL contractually owed and should anything then change when the secondment finishes (such as going back to shifts which include nights as I understand that is the OP's concern), that would be a unilateral change to his contract.

In other words, the contract has been varied by the passage of time to be as per the secondment and any variation to that would be a unilateral change.

You’re the lawyer not me, so I’d not be stupid enough to argue, but could they claim he’s been overpaid for the last 9 years and look to claim some of it back?

[Jasandjules]

deja.vu said:

You’re the lawyer not me, so I’d not be stupid enough to argue, but could they claim he’s been overpaid for the last 9 years and look to claim some of it back?

It is always sensible to look to ask such questions, if someone can not explain to you why they consider you incorrect, then you find someone else who will......

In this case I suspect the contract has been varied by the time of the change that has not been challenged by either party, 9 years is quite a secondment, longer than many careers....... I can't see anyone trying to claim that those changes are not incorporated given the duration they have applied, nor succeeding if they did. Then again, someone might try it I guess... Of course the secondment documents (if any were created) SHOULD note that no contractual changes are made etc save as for those specified and they only apply to the secondment and will be revoked upon the conclusion of the secondment.. But many places do not send such paperwork either.. And generally I would expect to see an annual document re: secondment to specify a term of 12 months etc to prevent the OP's situation..

[deja.vu]

Jasandjules said:

deja.vu said:

You’re the lawyer not me, so I’d not be stupid enough to argue, but could they claim he’s been overpaid for the last 9 years and look to claim some of it back?

It is always sensible to look to ask such questions, if someone can not explain to you why they consider you incorrect, then you find someone else who will......

In this case I suspect the contract has been varied by the time of the change that has not been challenged by either party, 9 years is quite a secondment, longer than many careers....... I can't see anyone trying to claim that those changes are not incorporated given the duration they have applied, nor succeeding if they did. Then again, someone might try it I guess... Of course the secondment documents (if any were created) SHOULD note that no contractual changes are made etc save as for those specified and they only apply to the secondment and will be revoked upon the conclusion of the secondment.. But many places do not send such paperwork either.. And generally I would expect to see an annual document re: secondment to specify a term of 12 months etc to prevent the OP's situation..

Thanks for taking the time to answer in such detail, very interesting.

[scoobychris555]

Thank you all for the replies and comments. It is much appreciated.
So question is what is my next move if I can't get what I consider as a satisfactory solution to this?

[simon_harris]

I would guess a successful constructive dismissal claim.

[Jasandjules]

scoobychris555 said:

Thank you all for the replies and comments. It is much appreciated.
So question is what is my next move if I can't get what I consider as a satisfactory solution to this?

IANYL

The question is what is your best and worst case outcomes?

And what are you willing to do?

The poster above is correct, technically speaking you would be looking at a constructive dismissal claim. That however requires resigning (thus no income) and bringing a Tribunal claim... Before that point I would tend to recommend trying a Without Prejudice discussion with the employer to see if any amicable outcome can be obtained.

[scoobychris555]

In an ideal world I would continue in a similar job on similar pay and conditions working for the same company. I wouldn't rule out the legal route further down the line but looking for an upper hand (if it exists) with discussions rather than an exit strategy

[Jasandjules]

I think then at the moment you may be looking at keeping your cards close to your chest. Whilst it is "likely" the conditions will revert in your view, it MAY be that HR will be very aware of the situation and the company will offer you a role in the same or similar terms....

At this stage I would wait and see then if they say you go back to terrible hours etc, a nice polite email to HR suggesting they appear to have "made an error" as your terms have been changed etc into X, Y and Z... Then see how the land lies...