police and teachers not getting a raise (or very little)

[vulture1]

To be honest I have no problem the teachers not getting a raise my own personal opinion is they haven't had a harder time of it or had to go over and above.
However the police. I feel they should get a decent raise at least the same as the NHS.

I don't want to be a teacher but tbh I recon I could do the job
I don't want to be a police officer but there is NO WAY I would do the job.
Thoughts

[carreauchompeur]

Hmmm, I do get that it’s a time when fiscal restraint is required to pay off the humongous bill from all this mess. But 1% would have been nice.

The level of discord/threats of industrial action over 3% rises elsewhere is not impressive.

[thebraketester]

vulture1 said:

my own personal opinion is they haven't had a harder time of it or had to go over and above.

What research is that biased on?

[The teacher]

I'm biased. I can't stand this attitude is it's an easy live and anybody can do it; if that were so, teacher retention would not be an issue.

To say you don't think teachers have been affected it's very narrow minded (or the experiences of the schools you've seen are particularly poor). The last two years of my career have been the most draining (I've been teaching for 18 years).

Should teachers get a pay rise? Most would prefer for a change in expectations that doesn't see you working every weekend and every evening, sacrificing one's own family.

The recent pay rises for starting wages introduce new problems; a newly qualified teacher's pay being much closer to those with far greater experience make it interesting given the difference in expectations places upon individuals.

I view myself as well paid (comparatively, but not to most on here) and I also love my job. Having had an effective pay cut for ten years isn't great; the two years of pay rises were below inflation, so technically a pay cut. However, I value job security and doing something I love as more important.

I don't know much about the police force so I couldn't comment on their suitability for a pay rise.

[colin79666]

So basically reward those who worked through the pandemic nothing because we spent all the money paying the private sector employees to stay home…

Yes I know it’s not that simple and I’m not saying furlow was all bad (the general principle was good to save everything tanking) but the public sector employee has had 15 years of this BS now from successive governments. Pay hasn’t kept up with inflation most years let alone an actual rise. I foresee a winter of discontent coming.

[AndyAudi]

The teacher said:

The recent pay rises for starting wages introduce new problems; a newly qualified teacher's pay being much closer to those with far greater experience make it interesting given the difference in expectations places upon individuals

This is something I don’t get with things like teachers, so if you don’t mind I’ll ask? What are the different expectations based on experience? To me with limited understanding, teachers are given a class to teach & that is their job. If one teacher is better than the other I understand that doesn’t affect their pay, but if one has been there a little longer they get paid a little more?

[survivalist]

colin79666 said:

So basically reward those who worked through the pandemic nothing because we spent all the money paying the private sector employees to stay home…

Yes I know it’s not that simple and I’m not saying furlow was all bad (the general principle was good to save everything tanking) but the public sector employee has had 15 years of this BS now from successive governments. Pay hasn’t kept up with inflation most years let alone an actual rise. I foresee a winter of discontent coming.

I don’t think wage stagnation is exclusive to the public sector.

Plenty of private sector employees are in the same position with fewer benefits.

[Wombat3]

survivalist said:

colin79666 said:

So basically reward those who worked through the pandemic nothing because we spent all the money paying the private sector employees to stay home…

Yes I know it’s not that simple and I’m not saying furlow was all bad (the general principle was good to save everything tanking) but the public sector employee has had 15 years of this BS now from successive governments. Pay hasn’t kept up with inflation most years let alone an actual rise. I foresee a winter of discontent coming.

I don’t think wage stagnation is exclusive to the public sector.

Plenty of private sector employees are in the same position with fewer benefits.

....or a fraction of the job security and pension benefits.

Edited by Wombat3 on Thursday 22 July 22:50

[survivalist]

AndyAudi said:

The teacher said:

The recent pay rises for starting wages introduce new problems; a newly qualified teacher's pay being much closer to those with far greater experience make it interesting given the difference in expectations places upon individuals

This is something I don’t get with things like teachers, so if you don’t mind I’ll ask? What are the different expectations based on experience? To me with limited understanding, teachers are given a class to teach & that is their job. If one teacher is better than the other I understand that doesn’t affect their pay, but if one has been there a little longer they get paid a little more?

One has to assume it’s a combination of teaching being a vocation, rather than ‘just a job’, and the difficulty in trying to create pay differentiation based on being a ‘better’ teacher.

In reality, a school is judged as a whole and therefore relies on a team of teachers to deliver and overall outcome for the pupils of a school.

So rather thank trying to pay the better teachers more money, it’s about getting a school full of good teachers. It’s then all about making sure that the sub optimal teachers are give the help they need to improve or, potentially, moving them on.

In terms of the topic, from what I have seen this year, teachers have been having to work much harder. They have had to deliver home schooling programs while simultaneously teaching children in school (remember key workers) and the have had to help those who have fallen behind once everyone was back at school.

[Zetec-S]

Wombat3 said:

survivalist said:

colin79666 said:

So basically reward those who worked through the pandemic nothing because we spent all the money paying the private sector employees to stay home…

Yes I know it’s not that simple and I’m not saying furlow was all bad (the general principle was good to save everything tanking) but the public sector employee has had 15 years of this BS now from successive governments. Pay hasn’t kept up with inflation most years let alone an actual rise. I foresee a winter of discontent coming.

I don’t think wage stagnation is exclusive to the public sector.

Plenty of private sector employees are in the same position with fewer benefits.

....or a fraction of the job security and pension benefits.

Edited by Wombat3 on Thursday 22 July 22:50

private sector here - 1% this year, nothing last year…

Although no way I’d want a job teaching. I imagine it can be quite rewarding in the right circumstances, but if you’re teaching a bunch of no-hoper little sts it must be a little soul destroying…

[Chozza]

Public sector and their unions like to say they are underpaid. But they forget/keep quiet that pay grades are often countrywide.
There are some inner and outer London weighting , but these don't amount to much

BUT a Teacher with say 10 years experience in the North East is on a decent wage.

[Klippie]

I work for the NHS and see the waste every day its a basket case...sort out even a fraction of this and part of the savings could go towards the NHS pay increase but not for everyone...the direct workers the ones with hands on the patients deserve everything they get its a horrific job that would make most people run for the hills.

There are a lots of managers on very good money and don't for a second feel they deserve a 3% rise, if it was a performance related rise they would be giving money back to the NHS...it boils my piss seeing it.

[Wombat3]

Klippie said:

I work for the NHS and see the waste every day its a basket case...sort out even a fraction of this and part of the savings could go towards the NHS pay increase but not for everyone...the direct workers the ones with hands on the patients deserve everything they get its a horrific job that would make most people run for the hills.

There are a lots of managers on very good money and don't for a second feel they deserve a 3% rise, if it was a performance related rise they would be giving money back to the NHS...it boils my piss seeing it.

Before Sir Phillip Greene (He of BHS /pensions & groping scandals) managed to disgrace himself one way or another ISTR he did a very useful (and free) piece of work for the NHS identifying massive (and some relatively easy to fix) areas of waste. Sadly his own antics thereafter seem to have ensured that NHS middle management has managed to bury most of the recommendations he made.

There is indeed massive waste (and abuse of public funds) in the NHS. It seems to be stuffed full of semi-competent & highly overpaid managers. There is also massive abuse and misuse of the NHS by its customers (patients).

If we could go some way towards fixing both of those then we might get somewhere.

Never happen of course.

[fiatpower]

AndyAudi said:

This is something I don’t get with things like teachers, so if you don’t mind I’ll ask? What are the different expectations based on experience? To me with limited understanding, teachers are given a class to teach & that is their job. If one teacher is better than the other I understand that doesn’t affect their pay, but if one has been there a little longer they get paid a little more?

I'm not a teacher but my wife is a primary school teacher so have a reasonable idea. My understanding is that as they are more experienced they get paid more as you would have in any job. As they move up the pay bands they will also be expected to be the school lead in subjects to develop the school's method of delivering the curriculum for that subject throughout the school. I believe my wife for example is head of history and science. You can only get to a certain band before you have to take on more responsibility such as head of year group etc.

I also have to defend the notion that teachers haven't done much this past year. I have seen the impact the year has had on my wife and her colleagues and also my mum who is a head teacher. They have worked incredibly hard this past year. You may only see the hours whilst kids are in class or being taught on zoom but behind that is hours and hours of marking, planning etc every night and weekend. Whilst I was off on furlough I was essentially having to remove my wife's laptop and replace it with a meal so that she would eat otherwise she wouldn't have.

I could never be a teacher. Give me a drug crazed maniac to tackle any day over teaching a class and the worst of all, dealing with the parents...

Edited by fiatpower on Friday 23 July 00:26

[vulture1]

thebraketester said:

vulture1 said:

my own personal opinion is they haven't had a harder time of it or had to go over and above.

What research is that biased on?

My own personal opinion.

[shirt]

The teacher said:

I'm biased. I can't stand this attitude is it's an easy live and anybody can do it; if that were so, teacher retention would not be an issue.

To say you don't think teachers have been affected it's very narrow minded (or the experiences of the schools you've seen are particularly poor). The last two years of my career have been the most draining (I've been teaching for 18 years).

Should teachers get a pay rise? Most would prefer for a change in expectations that doesn't see you working every weekend and every evening, sacrificing one's own family.

The recent pay rises for starting wages introduce new problems; a newly qualified teacher's pay being much closer to those with far greater experience make it interesting given the difference in expectations places upon individuals.

I view myself as well paid (comparatively, but not to most on here) and I also love my job. Having had an effective pay cut for ten years isn't great; the two years of pay rises were below inflation, so technically a pay cut. However, I value job security and doing something I love as more important.

I don't know much about the police force so I couldn't comment on their suitability for a pay rise.

I take it you don’t teach English?

[r44flyer]

vulture1 said:

My own personal opinion.

In which case you are either a fool, massively uninformed, ignorant, a pointless troll or all of the above.

My wife is a teacher. She has never worked harder than the last 18 months. Trying desperately to stop the already disadvantaged children she teaches from falling further behind where they need to be, when the vast majority get no help from parents at home and/or English is their second language. Teaching continued in class and for those at home at the same time. Doubling workload in some cases. Many of the pupils disappeared home during the first lockdowns, and sporadically since, and didn't engage in any of the online learning and came back many steps back from where they were when they left. The teachers had to fit months of material into weeks, under threat of performance review if the kids don't make it.

Even covid aside, many are going part time just so they can regain some kind of normal life with their families. They do 3 days a week and work their two days off doing everything they would normally do in their evenings and weekends, just so they can have the weekend with their own kids. Full time hours for part time money.

More clever initiatives are dreamt up every term meaning another box to tick, another lesson to be crammed into the day, more planning and more marking. The kids suffer, the teachers are burned out... but they'll offer newbies a golden hello to get them in the door knowing that it is in great danger of becoming a transient profession, with the average length of service getting shorter all the time. Almost every new job is given to a newly qualified teacher because they are cheap.

All the while their salaries are eroded year on year whilst budgets and staffing are slashed over and over. It is unsustainable. They are taken advantage of, much like those in the nursing profession, because they do it to make a difference to the lives that they touch.

It is unfortunate that yet again they will be ignored when it comes to any discussion of any meaningful pay rise. Yes the pandemic was and is expensive, but it is also a fantastic excuse for all sectors, particularly public, to push through all kinds of changes (to the detriment of the employee) citing the need for everyone to sacrifice themselves for the wider good of the country's finances. And they will suck it up... again.

[vulture1]

Or I just value the police more than teachers. That's it. Didn't say they don't deserve it but if given the choice of a police raise or teacher raise my vote would be for the police. I was more trying to start a debate to see if the concensus was the same.

Easy to take one side when you have a friend, relative or partner affected by one side of it. I'm not doubting your wife worker hard or harder than before but imo the police did more/ dealt with more.

[fiatpower]

vulture1 said:

Or I just value the police more than teachers. That's it. Didn't say they don't deserve it but if given the choice of a police raise or teacher raise my vote would be for the police. I was more trying to start a debate to see if the concensus was the same.

Easy to take one side when you have a friend, relative or partner affected by one side of it. I'm not doubting your wife worker hard or harder than before but imo the police did more/ dealt with more.

We have friends who are in the police and I have actually been considering changing career to it myself (although I find myself put off by the frankly shocking starting salary). I don’t see how they’ve had to deal with more than teachers. They’ve both had increases in their day to day job due to COVID so to say one has done more than the other with no data to back it up is quite simply bizarre.

In my opinion they are both vastly under valued and unappreciated by a large majority of the public. If there was more value placed on teaching and proper funding provided then maybe some of the societal issues we’re seeing now wouldn’t be as bad which would make policing a bit easier. Really the whole social system (teaching, policing, mental health, benefits etc) needs a total overhaul.

[r44flyer]

vulture1 said:

Or I just value the police more than teachers. That's it. Didn't say they don't deserve it but if given the choice of a police raise or teacher raise my vote would be for the police. I was more trying to start a debate to see if the concensus was the same.

Easy to take one side when you have a friend, relative or partner affected by one side of it. I'm not doubting your wife worker hard or harder than before but imo the police did more/ dealt with more.

I am fully aware of the realities of both jobs. I have been a police officer, my stepfather was a police officer, I currently work closely with a couple of ex-coppers. I would never deny they do a hard job and for, at the risk of repeating myself, repeatedly eroded pay and conditions under ever increasing pressure and workload. Again, staffing levels are cut to dangerous levels severely reducing the effectiveness of the service. They are taken advantage of in the same way nurses and teachers are and they do the job because they believe in it.

You are, of course, entitled to your 'personal opinion', but it is just that. To qualify one profession against the other is not possible. They are clearly very different roles. They are both deserving of pay that keeps pace with inflation at the very least.

Teaching was turned on its head, very quickly. But to suggest that teachers "haven't had a harder time of it or had to go over and above" is laughable, with no basis in fact and in no way any kind of justification for an opinion that they are less deserving.