Is a 4-day working week the answer?
Discussion
Recently, there have been a few threads where PHers have expressed how jaded they are after 15 or 20 years of their IT career. While I'm not quite there yet, I do find myself contemplating how a three day weekend, every weekend, would affect things.
I'm increasingly conscious of how fast life passes by when you are at your desk five days a week, and I definitely like to make the most of my free time.
I'm also well aboard the FIRE journey and will have completed stage one of clearing the mortgage by the end of the year.
While I do save and invest a significant amount of my income with the hope to retire earlier than average, it'll still be almost three decades until I can claim my pension.
Dropping down to four days a week sounds a lot more sustainable long term.
I guess what's messing with me is my pride; I've always been ambitious and not afraid of earning money. I always want to improve myself and never take a step back, so to go down to a four-day week would make me feel like a bit of a cop-out.
For those that have done something similar…did the extra day off make a difference to your happiness, or did the novelty wear off? Did it affect your identity at all? Do you still get taken seriously at work or did it affect your promotion opportunities? Do you miss the money?
I'm increasingly conscious of how fast life passes by when you are at your desk five days a week, and I definitely like to make the most of my free time.
I'm also well aboard the FIRE journey and will have completed stage one of clearing the mortgage by the end of the year.
While I do save and invest a significant amount of my income with the hope to retire earlier than average, it'll still be almost three decades until I can claim my pension.
Dropping down to four days a week sounds a lot more sustainable long term.
I guess what's messing with me is my pride; I've always been ambitious and not afraid of earning money. I always want to improve myself and never take a step back, so to go down to a four-day week would make me feel like a bit of a cop-out.
For those that have done something similar…did the extra day off make a difference to your happiness, or did the novelty wear off? Did it affect your identity at all? Do you still get taken seriously at work or did it affect your promotion opportunities? Do you miss the money?
My daughter has just accepted a job which is a 4 day working week, OK the hours per working day are slightly longer but TBH I'd happily have slightly longer day to enable a 4 day week and she's of the same opinion, she'd didn't even know it was a 4 day week until she was told the job was hers.
A company I worked with sometimes moved to 4 x 9 hour day weeks a couple of years ago, whole company, and never looked back. Lots of compelling research coming through that it increases productivity overall. Obviously doesn’t work for all sectors, but I suspect it will be much more normal at some point in future.
Edited by aparna on Saturday 10th July 00:13
cavey76 said:
How does how many days you work affect your marginal tax rate. Or are you assuming 20% less working time
means 20% less pay?
I’m talking about if you earn around £60k. 4 days drops you out of higher rate tax, so half of what you earn on the 5th day goes straight to the tax man.means 20% less pay?
If you’re substantially above or below that amount , the effect is less pronounced.
sevensfun said:
That’s not how it works
Maybe I’ve over simplified it but the point I’m making is that if you’re a higher rate tax payer, ( where more than a 1/5 of your pay is taxed at that rate), the government takes virtually half of that. Add in NI , getting to work, coffees and lunches and the actual pay fir 4 days is not much less than for 5. I wasn’t suggesting your tax just disappears.
If you’re not a higher rate tax payer, the effect is less and it’s less likely you could live in less anyway.
sevensfun said:
That’s not how it works
It is how it works. He’s not saying tax bands aren’t marginal.If your first 4 days are taxed at 20% and your 5th day at 40%, then cutting that day reduces your overall net income by 0.6/(4 x 0.8 + 0.6) = 18.75% vs. 20% fewer hours worked.
Doesn’t seem that significant though.
Personally I would have thought a company would be quite willing to cut you down to 4 days if you can put the hours in to compensate for the lost day. Eg longer hours, shorter breaks etc.
However what is the advantage to them if you simply do 20% less work per week? Okay they may be saving a bit on wages but they want productivity more than saving a few quid.
Translate that to a production line that has a full order book and you can’t suddenly drop production down to 4 days and expect it to fulfill its full potential.
Steve7777 said:
sevensfun said:
That’s not how it works
It is how it works. He’s not saying tax bands aren’t marginal.If your first 4 days are taxed at 20% and your 5th day at 40%, then cutting that day reduces your overall net income by 0.6/(4 x 0.8 + 0.6) = 18.75% vs. 20% fewer hours worked.
Doesn’t seem that significant though.
So you’ll get £50000 pa for 4 days.
The first £50k of both will be taxed at 20% less allowance plus NI contributions.
The extra £12500 for your 5th day is taxed at 40% + 2% NI. That’s £5250 extra tax or £7250 pa take home.
That’s just £139 per week. Factor in getting to work, paying for lunches / coffees etc ( put your own personal figures in) and it’s down to about £100 a week.
It depends on your personal situation , whether a day off a week is worth £100 or not.
Another good thing with working 4 days instead of 5, is you’re more likely to just work contracted hours rather than put in a load of unpaid overtime because it’s expected.
The worst possible thing to do , is get paid for 4 days but put in effectively 5 days work with unpaid o/t, so why would you do it ?
The worst possible thing to do , is get paid for 4 days but put in effectively 5 days work with unpaid o/t, so why would you do it ?
Cliffe60 said:
Another good thing with working 4 days instead of 5, is you’re more likely to just work contracted hours rather than put in a load of unpaid overtime because it’s expected.
The worst possible thing to do , is get paid for 4 days but put in effectively 5 days work with unpaid o/t, so why would you do it ?
Often because people have responsibilities / decisions need taken that require extra hours.The worst possible thing to do , is get paid for 4 days but put in effectively 5 days work with unpaid o/t, so why would you do it ?
CheesecakeRunner said:
For a lot of companies, hours worked (or present) is not the same as productivity. I’m not paid for the hours I’m in the office, I’m paid for what I produce. What I produce may take fewer hours than being in the office, or more hours.
The argument is that physically fewer hours present, gives greater recovery, and thus higher productivity when present at work. So productivity stays the same, but hours are reduced.
Obviously this doesn’t work for some things like factories, but does for knowledge work. In fact, it’s well proven for knowledge work, the longer hours are, the more productivity decreases. Your brain simply can’t handle it.
Yep - there was science behind Steve Jobs always wearing the same outfit. Making decisions takes effort, so reducing the number you need to make by having routines and unimportant things on autopilot (always having the same breakfast for example) allows you more concentration at work.The argument is that physically fewer hours present, gives greater recovery, and thus higher productivity when present at work. So productivity stays the same, but hours are reduced.
Obviously this doesn’t work for some things like factories, but does for knowledge work. In fact, it’s well proven for knowledge work, the longer hours are, the more productivity decreases. Your brain simply can’t handle it.
Hi OP,
I dropped to 4 days a week a number of years ago, luckily I was able to do this without losing any pay.
I say go for it, in my experience it’s been great. I get to spend more time with my kids, saved on the cost of a days childcare and commuting costs and now all my kids are at school I get this as me time so I’ve started my own side business which I expect to be a far more profitable use of that time.
As for your concerns regarding your identity, sense of worth that’s up to you mate. I’m more than just an engineer. In my situation I wouldn’t say I’m any less productive in fact I’d say I’m more productive as I’ve got to manage my time more efficiently and my recent appraisal reflects this.
Same for promotion, I’ve discussed this with my managers but it’s been me that’s been holding off on it for a number of reasons.
In short I used to be similar to you, constantly pushing and trying to prove myself but now I take a different view in that there is more in life than chasing the money. As someone else on here said, you can always make more money but you can’t make more time.
I dropped to 4 days a week a number of years ago, luckily I was able to do this without losing any pay.
I say go for it, in my experience it’s been great. I get to spend more time with my kids, saved on the cost of a days childcare and commuting costs and now all my kids are at school I get this as me time so I’ve started my own side business which I expect to be a far more profitable use of that time.
As for your concerns regarding your identity, sense of worth that’s up to you mate. I’m more than just an engineer. In my situation I wouldn’t say I’m any less productive in fact I’d say I’m more productive as I’ve got to manage my time more efficiently and my recent appraisal reflects this.
Same for promotion, I’ve discussed this with my managers but it’s been me that’s been holding off on it for a number of reasons.
In short I used to be similar to you, constantly pushing and trying to prove myself but now I take a different view in that there is more in life than chasing the money. As someone else on here said, you can always make more money but you can’t make more time.
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