Work from holiday?
Discussion
First time working remotely/from home due to the current climate.
If there currently wasn’t a lockdown what would stop someone that works remotely from working in a much nicer place than the UK/their home?
Say go to the South of France, Barcelona or the Nurburgring for a few months, work remotely from 8am - 5pm and have the evenings and weekends to yourself?
Can it be done or do people currently do it? Can’t help thinking that taking an extended holidays would be nice if you could do some work during the day to pay for it.
If there currently wasn’t a lockdown what would stop someone that works remotely from working in a much nicer place than the UK/their home?
Say go to the South of France, Barcelona or the Nurburgring for a few months, work remotely from 8am - 5pm and have the evenings and weekends to yourself?
Can it be done or do people currently do it? Can’t help thinking that taking an extended holidays would be nice if you could do some work during the day to pay for it.
Nothing at all would stop that and there are already lots of people who do precisely that
One of the guys I used to work with lived just outside Amsterdam, worked remotely in keeping with UK office time, and if he needed to come to the office it was a couple of hours (we're very close to Gatwick) and he could be there and back the same day, actually costing less than when we have to visit our own UK site in Manchester because there are no Gatwick-Manchester flights anymore.
So long as you're prepared to be in the UK when required for whatever meetings or similar, its likely fine
One of the guys I used to work with lived just outside Amsterdam, worked remotely in keeping with UK office time, and if he needed to come to the office it was a couple of hours (we're very close to Gatwick) and he could be there and back the same day, actually costing less than when we have to visit our own UK site in Manchester because there are no Gatwick-Manchester flights anymore.
So long as you're prepared to be in the UK when required for whatever meetings or similar, its likely fine
A few of my colleagues often go to stay with family overseas for a month, take two weeks holiday but work from 'home' for two weeks. Means they get a decent time with their family rather than a quick snatched visit
My company is very employee centric and encourage us to work flexibly where we need to though
My company is very employee centric and encourage us to work flexibly where we need to though
Shakermaker said:
One of the guys I used to work with lived just outside Amsterdam, worked remotely in keeping with UK office time, and if he needed to come to the office it was a couple of hours (we're very close to Gatwick) and he could be there and back the same day, actually costing less than when we have to visit our own UK site in Manchester because there are no Gatwick-Manchester flights anymore.
I guess it makes sense. Do you know if were employed as a contractor or just an employee who worked remotely?Benrad said:
My company is very employee centric and encourage us to work flexibly where we need to though
I suspect this could be the challenge, I think at present it would require a total rethink as WFH for myself has only been introduced out of necessity rather than a perk. I suspect the company would either have to encourage it, or not care where you worked from as long as you were available during office hours.
It's common in our company - we mostly work from home anyway - and no issue at all.
One of my colleagues used to rent a house/villa in Spain every year for the full school summer holiday period and move out there with his family for that 6 weeks. He'd take a couple of weeks holiday and work the rest as normal. Just a case of flying to client meetings if needed, but that's no different to normal either. (He's now moved over there permanently and still works for us.)
Another colleague is in the process of relocating to France. They will still be doing the same job.
One of my colleagues used to rent a house/villa in Spain every year for the full school summer holiday period and move out there with his family for that 6 weeks. He'd take a couple of weeks holiday and work the rest as normal. Just a case of flying to client meetings if needed, but that's no different to normal either. (He's now moved over there permanently and still works for us.)
Another colleague is in the process of relocating to France. They will still be doing the same job.
One of my team is currently working from Brazil. He went on holiday to see his parents and was then caught in the lockdown. Rather than flying back to WFH in the UK I told him he might as well carry on from there.
You need a really good internet connection and your output needs to be measurable.
You need a really good internet connection and your output needs to be measurable.
Jasandjules said:
I have thought about this many times as I already work from home most of the time. The downside is when I am required to attend hearings - the travel just inside England is bad enough let alone adding in travelling from France (or more likely Portugal)..
Not sure what area of law it is you do and cannot recall. I do civil lit and so the bulk of hearings under an hour are telephone hearings now anyway. If they are beyond an hour then for the most part they will be sufficiently complex that I will brief Counsel in any event. I work between the UK and Spain. Until this recent CV business it was fairly seamless. Have an office in my UK property and in my Spanish property. Clients wouldn't know the difference were it not for the fact that if they called me on the mobile in Spain they would have the foreign ring tone before I answered. If I am needed to attend a meeting, depending on the location it could be as easy to fly in (and as cheap) from Spain as it could be to commute from my UK home. One of my Spanish neighbours is a Brit who commutes Mon - Thursday each week leaving her husband at the villa running his own business there.
Interesting title to this thread as that is the prejudice you face. Clients, employers etc all consider working from somewhere outside of the UK as a holiday. People still say, "have a lovely time" when you leave, even if you are there every other week. Anywhere not UK is considered a holiday, no matter how many hours you are doing or what you are achieving. It's a funny reaction from people that just can't seem to compute you can just work the same way as you would do in the UK, but just enjoying the climate, culture and life generally, outside of work hours somewhere that isn't grey and gloomy.
As to working hours, before I settled in Spain, I spent a month or so staying with various friends around the world working from home. I have never made the point to clients that I am outside of the UK. However, I noticed that in the Middle East, where I was 4 hours ahead, clients responded positively to receiving emails and work delivered early doors. My "early" finish on UK time also never really seemed to be of any issue, particularly when a response was received by 7 the next morning. However, I was in Toronto for a month and being that much behind UK time weirdly did bring about a few issues insofar as sending emails etc at midnight, when I was merrily working away, was less well received than being ahead of the UK, and starting "late" for the UK again brought far greater issues than closing down at 3/4pm UK time. It meant I was having to get up at 4/5am to keep everyone happy. Not ideal.
One of the great parts of Europe is that 1 hour is neither here nor there. However, if you do happen to have a heavy night the night before, starting at 10am brings you in line with the UK. Most days I tend to hit the gym by 7ish and then am showered, sat at my desk for 8:30am and can clear through a lot of emails before the 9am UK bell rings and I am back in real time. Of course, Europe also means you are only a few hours away on a plane and if you aim for the right location, at a reasonable price. My nervousness now is whether that remains the case post-CV2020...
It's mostly about having the right setup to actually work - a laptop by the pool doesn't really cut it.
I regularly work from a non-UK home - usually only one day a week, but sometimes I get into an alternate weeks pattern.
Spend too long doing it and it can become complicated from a tax perspective....
I regularly work from a non-UK home - usually only one day a week, but sometimes I get into an alternate weeks pattern.
Spend too long doing it and it can become complicated from a tax perspective....
T5SOR said:
Isn’t there an issue with someone working in a country they don’t pay tax? You are employed in the UK, pay tax in the UK, but carry out your WFH in a different country?
Yes - that's what I meant by complicated - a couple of posts upDifferent countries have different thresholds for they point at which they start to care - it's basically the same for anyone on an international business trip.
There can also be employment law issues for the company.
Whenever I've done it, it's been an unofficial thing - I'm just working at home - people know where I am, but there's no official record.
T5SOR said:
Isn’t there an issue with someone working in a country they don’t pay tax? You are employed in the UK, pay tax in the UK, but carry out your WFH in a different country?
It depends on what the nature of your residence/domicile is in each country. If to all intents and purposes your home is in the UK then there are no issues. If your permanent residence is abroad then there might be issues but things like Dual tax Treaties might have a part to play.Countdown said:
T5SOR said:
Isn’t there an issue with someone working in a country they don’t pay tax? You are employed in the UK, pay tax in the UK, but carry out your WFH in a different country?
It depends on what the nature of your residence/domicile is in each country. If to all intents and purposes your home is in the UK then there are no issues. If your permanent residence is abroad then there might be issues but things like Dual tax Treaties might have a part to play.In answer to OP's question about holiday, then you'll be fine. Do it for longer and it becomes more complicated.
It becomes about how long you'll be working outside the UK & how you split your time between the countries. You should pay tax and social security in the country that you are working and dual taxation will mean you don't pay it in the UK, but you may be able to continue paying UK tax.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/paying-employees-worki...
It’s a good question, and one I’ve asked myself from time to time. As long as my employer is OK with it, then it shouldn’t really matter, and there’s no theoretical reason why I couldn’t work from a villa somewhere nice during the summer (or winter!) months.
I already work in a team with members in Luxembourg, Manila and London, so we’re all remote in some sense, regardless of whether we’re in our respective offices or in our homes. Extending that further so that the “home” isn’t in the UK should be fine, as long as I’m available UK hours and get the work done, but it’s not something anyone’s tested yet...
For me, it’ll be interesting to see if this impacts the “need” for people to be in or near London longer term, or if this will see a shift to a less London / south east centric skew for many businesses.
I already work in a team with members in Luxembourg, Manila and London, so we’re all remote in some sense, regardless of whether we’re in our respective offices or in our homes. Extending that further so that the “home” isn’t in the UK should be fine, as long as I’m available UK hours and get the work done, but it’s not something anyone’s tested yet...
For me, it’ll be interesting to see if this impacts the “need” for people to be in or near London longer term, or if this will see a shift to a less London / south east centric skew for many businesses.
Carbon Sasquatch said:
Nothing to do with permanent residence.
What isn't?Carbon Sasquatch said:
In answer to OP's question about holiday, then you'll be fine. Do it for longer and it becomes more complicated.
It becomes about how long you'll be working outside the UK & how you split your time between the countries. You should pay tax and social security in the country that you are working and dual taxation will mean you don't pay it in the UK, but you may be able to continue paying UK tax.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/paying-employees-worki...
Isn't that pretty much what I've said? It becomes about how long you'll be working outside the UK & how you split your time between the countries. You should pay tax and social security in the country that you are working and dual taxation will mean you don't pay it in the UK, but you may be able to continue paying UK tax.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/paying-employees-worki...
Wording is everything - permanent residence & tax residence are different things - I can own a house on the UK - leave it empty & rent somewhere abroad The UK house is my permanent residence.
It's a massively complex area both for employees and employers - and even if you think its a great idea, your employer might not.
Every case will be different - sufficient to say that its complicated......
I looked into it a few years ago & decided that for me, the don't ask, don't tell approach was best.
It's a massively complex area both for employees and employers - and even if you think its a great idea, your employer might not.
Every case will be different - sufficient to say that its complicated......
I looked into it a few years ago & decided that for me, the don't ask, don't tell approach was best.
Carbon Sasquatch said:
Wording is everything - permanent residence & tax residence are different things - I can own a house on the UK - leave it empty & rent somewhere abroad The UK house is my permanent residence.
I think we're in agreement. In fact that's why I specifically mentioned the difference between resident and domiciled.Carbon Sasquatch said:
It's a massively complex area both for employees and employers - and even if you think its a great idea, your employer might not.
It shouldn't matter to your Employer at all where you consider yourself to be resident or where you ARE actually resident. Your employer just needs to make sure they're compliant with the Tax laws where THEY are resident.I'm not even sure why we are talking about tax to be honest. The OP was asking about working whilst abroad on holiday, so the tax aspect is irrelevant.
Shnozz said:
Not sure what area of law it is you do and cannot recall. I do civil lit and so the bulk of hearings under an hour are telephone hearings now anyway. If they are beyond an hour then for the most part they will be sufficiently complex that I will brief Counsel in any event.
I work between the UK and Spain. Until this recent CV business it was fairly seamless. Have an office in my UK property and in my Spanish property. Clients wouldn't know the difference were it not for the fact that if they called me on the mobile in Spain they would have the foreign ring tone before I answered. If I am needed to attend a meeting, depending on the location it could be as easy to fly in (and as cheap) from Spain as it could be to commute from my UK home. One of my Spanish neighbours is a Brit who commutes Mon - Thursday each week leaving her husband at the villa running his own business there.
Interesting title to this thread as that is the prejudice you face. Clients, employers etc all consider working from somewhere outside of the UK as a holiday. People still say, "have a lovely time" when you leave, even if you are there every other week. Anywhere not UK is considered a holiday, no matter how many hours you are doing or what you are achieving. It's a funny reaction from people that just can't seem to compute you can just work the same way as you would do in the UK, but just enjoying the climate, culture and life generally, outside of work hours somewhere that isn't grey and gloomy.
As to working hours, before I settled in Spain, I spent a month or so staying with various friends around the world working from home. I have never made the point to clients that I am outside of the UK. However, I noticed that in the Middle East, where I was 4 hours ahead, clients responded positively to receiving emails and work delivered early doors. My "early" finish on UK time also never really seemed to be of any issue, particularly when a response was received by 7 the next morning. However, I was in Toronto for a month and being that much behind UK time weirdly did bring about a few issues insofar as sending emails etc at midnight, when I was merrily working away, was less well received than being ahead of the UK, and starting "late" for the UK again brought far greater issues than closing down at 3/4pm UK time. It meant I was having to get up at 4/5am to keep everyone happy. Not ideal.
One of the great parts of Europe is that 1 hour is neither here nor there. However, if you do happen to have a heavy night the night before, starting at 10am brings you in line with the UK. Most days I tend to hit the gym by 7ish and then am showered, sat at my desk for 8:30am and can clear through a lot of emails before the 9am UK bell rings and I am back in real time. Of course, Europe also means you are only a few hours away on a plane and if you aim for the right location, at a reasonable price. My nervousness now is whether that remains the case post-CV2020...
The number of people who have phones on bedside tables and either don’t turn them to silent or have them facing up so notifications flood the room with light - or it’s on vibrate whatever it means the recipient could be disturbed during sleep time. I work between the UK and Spain. Until this recent CV business it was fairly seamless. Have an office in my UK property and in my Spanish property. Clients wouldn't know the difference were it not for the fact that if they called me on the mobile in Spain they would have the foreign ring tone before I answered. If I am needed to attend a meeting, depending on the location it could be as easy to fly in (and as cheap) from Spain as it could be to commute from my UK home. One of my Spanish neighbours is a Brit who commutes Mon - Thursday each week leaving her husband at the villa running his own business there.
Interesting title to this thread as that is the prejudice you face. Clients, employers etc all consider working from somewhere outside of the UK as a holiday. People still say, "have a lovely time" when you leave, even if you are there every other week. Anywhere not UK is considered a holiday, no matter how many hours you are doing or what you are achieving. It's a funny reaction from people that just can't seem to compute you can just work the same way as you would do in the UK, but just enjoying the climate, culture and life generally, outside of work hours somewhere that isn't grey and gloomy.
As to working hours, before I settled in Spain, I spent a month or so staying with various friends around the world working from home. I have never made the point to clients that I am outside of the UK. However, I noticed that in the Middle East, where I was 4 hours ahead, clients responded positively to receiving emails and work delivered early doors. My "early" finish on UK time also never really seemed to be of any issue, particularly when a response was received by 7 the next morning. However, I was in Toronto for a month and being that much behind UK time weirdly did bring about a few issues insofar as sending emails etc at midnight, when I was merrily working away, was less well received than being ahead of the UK, and starting "late" for the UK again brought far greater issues than closing down at 3/4pm UK time. It meant I was having to get up at 4/5am to keep everyone happy. Not ideal.
One of the great parts of Europe is that 1 hour is neither here nor there. However, if you do happen to have a heavy night the night before, starting at 10am brings you in line with the UK. Most days I tend to hit the gym by 7ish and then am showered, sat at my desk for 8:30am and can clear through a lot of emails before the 9am UK bell rings and I am back in real time. Of course, Europe also means you are only a few hours away on a plane and if you aim for the right location, at a reasonable price. My nervousness now is whether that remains the case post-CV2020...
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