Company Laptop (Responsibility for damage/theft ect. ect.)
Discussion
Like many people I was issued a company phone and laptop when I started my new job in March of last year. We have recently been issued a company laptop and company phone release form.
It mentions all the usual stuff including reasonable use ect ect, but what it also states that if I loose or damage either the phone or laptop then they have the right to deduct the value of the laptop from my wages and or any money owed to me. It doesn't even mention values. The laptop was £1900 new and the phone is a Blackberry Z10 (Utter sh%&$). The laptop is now worth £250 tops. I don't know about the phone.
I have never seen or heard of this before. They give me the laptop at their own risk. As far as I'm concerned its the same with the phone. I don't insure the phone or the laptop on my own insurance and I don't have any plans to.
In 10 years, I've never managed to loose a phone or a laptop.
Interested to hear other people's views on this. AT present, I've refused to sign it until we have discussed it in more detail.
It mentions all the usual stuff including reasonable use ect ect, but what it also states that if I loose or damage either the phone or laptop then they have the right to deduct the value of the laptop from my wages and or any money owed to me. It doesn't even mention values. The laptop was £1900 new and the phone is a Blackberry Z10 (Utter sh%&$). The laptop is now worth £250 tops. I don't know about the phone.
I have never seen or heard of this before. They give me the laptop at their own risk. As far as I'm concerned its the same with the phone. I don't insure the phone or the laptop on my own insurance and I don't have any plans to.
In 10 years, I've never managed to loose a phone or a laptop.
Interested to hear other people's views on this. AT present, I've refused to sign it until we have discussed it in more detail.
I think you're right to discuss it further.
It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty b
king if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.
It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty b
king if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.I had a similar thing with a company car. On my first day I was presented with a form to sign saying I'd pay the excess of £1000 in the event they couldn't recover it.
I signed it "under duress" which they weren't thrilled about. A solicitor family member who specialised in employement law told me there's no way they could enforce it if I was driving on business, but it was a more uncertain if I was off duty.
I signed it "under duress" which they weren't thrilled about. A solicitor family member who specialised in employement law told me there's no way they could enforce it if I was driving on business, but it was a more uncertain if I was off duty.
Funnily enough, I've just had an email from head office regarding my new company car.
I have to sign and return a document that makes me liable under certain circumstances.
Basically, if lists out what I will have to pay in certain events. For example:
£100 if I have 2 own fault accidents in a 12 month period, rising £100 each time I have an additional in a 12 month period.
£100 if I lose my keys
£250 if I return it overdue a service
£100 if it requires additional valeting upon return etc
I'm happy to sign it as they've listed out exactly what I am liable for and under what circumstances.
I have to sign and return a document that makes me liable under certain circumstances.
Basically, if lists out what I will have to pay in certain events. For example:
£100 if I have 2 own fault accidents in a 12 month period, rising £100 each time I have an additional in a 12 month period.
£100 if I lose my keys
£250 if I return it overdue a service
£100 if it requires additional valeting upon return etc
I'm happy to sign it as they've listed out exactly what I am liable for and under what circumstances.
Clauses like this are typically in place to ensure that employees don't casually leave expensive equipment lying around and not worry if it goes missing.
I've never actually heard about one being enforced as a sensible employer accepts that accidents happen but I guess if someone has a lot of accidents then they could deduct it to focus their mind in future.
I've never actually heard about one being enforced as a sensible employer accepts that accidents happen but I guess if someone has a lot of accidents then they could deduct it to focus their mind in future.
Thanks for all the replies. Its always pleasing to see that my concerns are valid.
I've just e-mailed the people in charge and asked them to clarify a few things. My main concerns are the values of both items. The other issue I have is that I know we don't pay for mobile phones directly. We have a company contract and all the phones are free under that contract.
I've also e-mailed a friend of mine who is a solicitor who specializes in HR and I'll see what her opinion is.
I've just e-mailed the people in charge and asked them to clarify a few things. My main concerns are the values of both items. The other issue I have is that I know we don't pay for mobile phones directly. We have a company contract and all the phones are free under that contract.
I've also e-mailed a friend of mine who is a solicitor who specializes in HR and I'll see what her opinion is.
bakerstreet said:
The other issue I have is that I know we don't pay for mobile phones directly. We have a company contract and all the phones are free under that contract.
Oddly, we (fairly large company) used to pay for 'phones, but the call tarrif was very cheap.This was my objection with the car excess - the company is saving money by having £1000 excess, then passing the excess on to employees.
I wonder if your own personal insurance would pick up the tab for laptop & phone, if you're considered liable for them? I somehow doubt it.
I once had a company laptop nicked out of the boot of my car while it was parked up overnight.
Car insurance company said because it was a company business laptop I should speak to the employer about their insurance.
Employer said I should have taken it with me instead of leaving it and they wouldnt be claiming so wanted the value from me, and wouldnt issue me with a replacement until I'd paid for the old one. £600 down I started looking for other jobs fairly soon after
Car insurance company said because it was a company business laptop I should speak to the employer about their insurance.
Employer said I should have taken it with me instead of leaving it and they wouldnt be claiming so wanted the value from me, and wouldnt issue me with a replacement until I'd paid for the old one. £600 down I started looking for other jobs fairly soon after
Ask your company to extend their insurance to cover electronic equipment held by employees. You have no insurable interest in it so you cannot insure it (and frankly why should you). I understand they are imposing terms on you to ensure you look after it but turn it around - perhaps the better way would be to give you a small bonus each year that you don't lose/damage an item.
Unless the law has changed recently my understanding would be; much of what has been described above appears to me to be potentially illegal, and much of it avoidable.
An employer must provide you with the tools to do your job and may not charge you for those tools, nor hold you responsible for those tools beyond a reasonable duty of care. i.e. you must not leave the tools in a vulnerable place, or cause malicious damage.
If you leave your laptop beside your table in a bar and walk out, expect to pay.
If you quite accidentally drop it during the performance of your duties, or it is damaged by a third party, the employer should pay.
If you should throw it on the floor in frustration, your employer may well feel sympathetic, but expect to pay.
If they require you to keep it under specific conditions of security, then they must provide the means of said security and specify that you use it.
However
If your contract states that you will pay for such losses, and the employer can prove that you have seen the contract, and the employer can also show that you have committed the act that allows them to make a deduction, then it will likely cost you.
The answer is to my mind; avoid signing such a contract, if you feel you must sign then make sure there are very specific provisions for when a deduction can be made, if you are given a document to sign that is not part of your original contract then seriously consider refusing to sign it, or consider negotiating the conditions if they seem unreasonable.
Where I use the term 'pay', it should be taken that the employer will make a deduction from your wages.
An employer must provide you with the tools to do your job and may not charge you for those tools, nor hold you responsible for those tools beyond a reasonable duty of care. i.e. you must not leave the tools in a vulnerable place, or cause malicious damage.
If you leave your laptop beside your table in a bar and walk out, expect to pay.
If you quite accidentally drop it during the performance of your duties, or it is damaged by a third party, the employer should pay.
If you should throw it on the floor in frustration, your employer may well feel sympathetic, but expect to pay.
If they require you to keep it under specific conditions of security, then they must provide the means of said security and specify that you use it.
However
If your contract states that you will pay for such losses, and the employer can prove that you have seen the contract, and the employer can also show that you have committed the act that allows them to make a deduction, then it will likely cost you.
The answer is to my mind; avoid signing such a contract, if you feel you must sign then make sure there are very specific provisions for when a deduction can be made, if you are given a document to sign that is not part of your original contract then seriously consider refusing to sign it, or consider negotiating the conditions if they seem unreasonable.
Where I use the term 'pay', it should be taken that the employer will make a deduction from your wages.
I would hand them their laptop and mobile back and say you don't want them under those conditions.
You wouldn't be able to perform your job without them, and if it resulted in dismal, you could get a huge payout as it would be unfair dismal for not providing an employee with the right resources which then effected their job role.
Extreme I know, and I'm sure you wouldn't want it to come to that, but it's the principal I would object to.
You wouldn't be able to perform your job without them, and if it resulted in dismal, you could get a huge payout as it would be unfair dismal for not providing an employee with the right resources which then effected their job role.
Extreme I know, and I'm sure you wouldn't want it to come to that, but it's the principal I would object to.
Slurms said:
Clauses like this are typically in place to ensure that employees don't casually leave expensive equipment lying around and not worry if it goes missing.
I've never actually heard about one being enforced as a sensible employer accepts that accidents happen but I guess if someone has a lot of accidents then they could deduct it to focus their mind in future.
This. A guy at work lost 3 (!) company laptops over the space of 12 months because basically he was a dozy git. First time he left it on a bus, second one he put it on a table in a train then sat down on the opposite side of the aisle (?!) third time he didnt remember. After the 3rd time his privileges to company laptop and phone were removed and he went ballistic. His role at the time meant he could perform his tasks using a desktop so that's what they made him do.I've never actually heard about one being enforced as a sensible employer accepts that accidents happen but I guess if someone has a lot of accidents then they could deduct it to focus their mind in future.
The Beaver King said:
I think you're right to discuss it further.
It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty bking if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.
I would say if it's stolen from the boot of your car it is your fault. It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty b
king if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.It's a disciplinary offense at a friends company.
I was out with one of the General Managers a few weeks ago, even he wouldn't leave his in the car.
2222 said:
The Beaver King said:
I think you're right to discuss it further.
It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty bking if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.
I would say if it's stolen from the boot of your car it is your fault. It could well be a standard line in the document that the company use to scare holders of company property into looking after them. On the flip side, it could be something they enforce...
I'd insist on a pre-agreed value of the goods and that charges for loss and damage are only enforceable if due to neglect or intent.
For example;
Your laptop is stolen because you've left it on the train or front seat of the car - your fault.
Your laptop is stolen from the boot of your car or by force - not your fault.
I have a company phone and laptop and didn't have to sign anything other than a document that said I was in possession of the items. That said, I know I'll get an almighty b
king if I lose/damage them through lack of reasonable care.It's a disciplinary offense at a friends company.
I was out with one of the General Managers a few weeks ago, even he wouldn't leave his in the car.
Ive a cure for that little problem - if they want to get that silly - you don't bring the laptop anywhere
that for a lot of crap.Just not sure why taking a laptop into a restaurant when having lunch is safer then having it out of view in the boot of the car
Now of course leaving it in the boot of the car overnight is a completely different ballgame
- your hardly going to leave it on the back seat in full view - that would be very silly and deserve a P45 for the epic level of stupidity
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