Employer taking sick days off holiday entitlement

[-crookedtail-]

As per title, this has been happening for a couple of years. Can it be cricket in this country?

Only noticed it when I checked how many days leave I had left from my holiday allowance that my employer has been using days I took off sick as 'leave' days.

Now the company is US based so I only get 20 days as it is, and this might be normal practice over there but I have never had this before. I'm not one to take the piss with sick days and only take them when necessary but this seems a tad harsh?

Anyone with any experience of this?

Contract doesn't mention it, only that I can have up to 5 consecutive days before needing a doctors note.

Just would like a heads up before I challenge it.

[New POD]

Are your 20 days including bank hols or not ?

I think what he's doing is probably not allowed, legally, but morally it stinks.

[randlemarcus]

I would look carefully at your sickness record before querying the policy.

How many sick days have you had in the last couple of years?

[-crookedtail-]

New POD said:

Are your 20 days including bank hols or not ?

hmmm not too sure on that, I'll need to double check my contract.

[-crookedtail-]

randlemarcus said:

I would look carefully at your sickness record before querying the policy.

How many sick days have you had in the last couple of years?

Not many, about 3-4 max!

[randlemarcus]

-crookedtail- said:

Not many, about 3-4 max!

I might be tempted to query that with HR then.

[Mr Sparkle]

I may be wrong but I thought your employer didn't have to pay you if you were off sick except for SSP. You may get the option of either; getting paid but using a days holiday, or having the day unpaid. I think this is what we do at our place. Think it seems reasonable enough.

[Countdown]

Did you get SSP or your "normal" pay whilst you were off sick?

Bear in mind that there is no SSP if you're sick for less than 3 days so if you were paid full pay whilst you were off you won't be any better off (Employer recovers your pay whilst off sick and reinstates your annual leave )

Hope that makes sense.

[-crookedtail-]

Countdown said:

Did you get SSP or your "normal" pay whilst you were off sick?

Full pay as far as I know.

Thanks for all of the info though guys, appreciate it.

[New POD]

-crookedtail- said:

New POD said:

Are your 20 days including bank hols or not ?

hmmm not too sure on that, I'll need to double check my contract.

I ask because the law requires 20 days holiday, including bank hols.

[davepoth]

New POD said:

I ask because the law requires 20 days holiday, including bank hols.

Actually, It's 20 days excluding bank holidays, since there was a change in the law a few years ago. I remember the change because I was contracted to work bank holidays (including Christmas Day) at the time.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/enti...

The usual holiday allowance in the USA is a lot lower - two weeks IIRC, but also a fixed number of sick days added on top.

As for the sick leave being taken out of holiday, that's a bit naughty.

https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

If your company has any kind of established presence in the UK (enough to have HR, at least) then they could be in a bit of trouble.

[anonymous-user]

The statutory minimum holiday allowance is 28 days, but the employer can count bank holidays to make up the total, so 20 days plus 8 bank holidays provides the minimum.

It is not yet clear whether an employer can compel an employee to count days off sick as leave days. It is arguable that this is inconsistent with the ECJ ruling in HMRC v Stringer.

[markiii]

I thought there had been a ruling the opposite way?

That days off sick whilst on holiday couldn't be counted as holiday and the employer had to give you them back? or did I dream it?

[anonymous-user]

It is open to an employee to choose to take leave while sick, and an employee who becomes sick can opt to re schedule a period of annual leave. I am not aware of a case that says that an employer cannot insist on sick leave being taken from annual leave, but I think that allowing the employer to do so may be inconsistent with EU law.

[anonymous-user]

I add that the last case I know of on sickness and leave is Sood v Healey from March 2013, but there may have been other cases since.

[pavka007]

I used to work for US Company here in the UK for almost 14 years. All of mine Holidays were the same as my (ex)Wife. She was/is still working for the Scottish Government. I actually accumulated additional days for the years of service. Just before I packed up I was on 26 days plus all the statutory Holidays for Scotland (9 days). The sick pay was from day one on a full wage. Anything above 3 days (that was years ago) you need to show Doctors line. I had a colleague who was off for 3 months with "depression"... shortly after he came back they paid him off, because of some information received in the HR department.
He was dismissed on the spot but the company paid him the full notification period (1 month) as per contract of employment.

[Conian]

An employer cannot force you to use holiday instead of sick leave
Also, if you have holiday booked and become sick before taking it, those holiday days are not counted.

[anonymous-user]

The second proposition there has been established by case law. The first is arguably correct but not yet established.