Dismissal for long-term illness?
Discussion
I'm currently very worried about losing my job. I have a long-term chronic liver disorder, which I notified my employer about a couple of years ago when it started to become an issue, although I've actually had it for over 7 years. I've just come back from having six days off due to abdominal/ liver pain, and for the first time it sounds like the company is going to take action against me.
I understand their position and the fact that I'm a liability to them, I'm just wondering what steps must be taken before they would be allowed to dismiss me? I've never had any kind of disciplinary or warnings before, and while I'm at work I'm one of the best in terms of productivity. I never let my illness affect my performance at work, no matter how bad I'm feeling.
As mentioned before I've suffered from this for over 7 years, and they say the expected lifespan is around 9 years without a liver transplant. There was a comment made to me by my manager that they reduced my working hours at my request because they thought it would prevent me from being absent, but it seems like they're failing to understand that my illness is progressive, and it mightn't be long until I have to have major surgery. I do understand that they're in a difficult position, and if I was them I'd be pissed off about it too. I'm just worrying now that I can't make promises to them that I'm not going to be off work (if they set me some kind of goal as a result of a disciplinary hearing, for example) when I'm getting worse over time.
So, to cut a long story short: What is the procedure for dismissing someone in a case like this?
I understand their position and the fact that I'm a liability to them, I'm just wondering what steps must be taken before they would be allowed to dismiss me? I've never had any kind of disciplinary or warnings before, and while I'm at work I'm one of the best in terms of productivity. I never let my illness affect my performance at work, no matter how bad I'm feeling.
As mentioned before I've suffered from this for over 7 years, and they say the expected lifespan is around 9 years without a liver transplant. There was a comment made to me by my manager that they reduced my working hours at my request because they thought it would prevent me from being absent, but it seems like they're failing to understand that my illness is progressive, and it mightn't be long until I have to have major surgery. I do understand that they're in a difficult position, and if I was them I'd be pissed off about it too. I'm just worrying now that I can't make promises to them that I'm not going to be off work (if they set me some kind of goal as a result of a disciplinary hearing, for example) when I'm getting worse over time.
So, to cut a long story short: What is the procedure for dismissing someone in a case like this?
I'm not going to try and answer the question regarding the legality of a disciplinary, because frankly I don't know. Breadvan will be along shortly to provide the answer, no doubt.
With regards to your employer, have you had any discussions with regards to a compromise? Is there anyway you can carry out your job at home with the correct equipment when you are not able to go to work or is it not possible (due to the illness or type of work)?
I'm just wondering if trying to put forward a favourable solution to your employer that works for both of you might defuse the situation?
It's a horrible situation to be in OP, especially when you want to work and progress, yet illness stops you.
Hope it works out.
With regards to your employer, have you had any discussions with regards to a compromise? Is there anyway you can carry out your job at home with the correct equipment when you are not able to go to work or is it not possible (due to the illness or type of work)?
I'm just wondering if trying to put forward a favourable solution to your employer that works for both of you might defuse the situation?
It's a horrible situation to be in OP, especially when you want to work and progress, yet illness stops you.
Hope it works out.
It sounds like a very unfortunate situation.
The short version as I understand it is that they have to prove that you're unable to fullfil your contract having taken reasonable steps to enable you to do so.
So explored options for you to work from home, modified your hours etc.
If they have done that they need to follow the usual, written warning, final written warning and dismissal processes.
The short version as I understand it is that they have to prove that you're unable to fullfil your contract having taken reasonable steps to enable you to do so.
So explored options for you to work from home, modified your hours etc.
If they have done that they need to follow the usual, written warning, final written warning and dismissal processes.
As a caveat, this is by no means expert advice.
What makes you think they are looking to get rid of you now? It sounds like up till now your employer has been sympathetic to some extent, perhaps something else has changed within the business that mean they are looking to lose staff and you are the obvious target.
It sounds to me like the chronic and debilitating nature of your illness means that you could well be considered disabled. It would be a foolish employer who thought they could get rid of a disabled employee without consequence, simply because of their disability.
Whilst you might empathize with your employer about the difficulty and expense of employing you, you really need to be looking out for number one. I'd suggest you should seek some specialist advice from an employment lawyer asap, and maybe the CAB or a specialist charity, as well as talking to your doctor.
I'd say it's imperative for you to get yourself considered 'disabled' rather than 'sick', as that will afford you much more protection in law as I understand it.
What makes you think they are looking to get rid of you now? It sounds like up till now your employer has been sympathetic to some extent, perhaps something else has changed within the business that mean they are looking to lose staff and you are the obvious target.
It sounds to me like the chronic and debilitating nature of your illness means that you could well be considered disabled. It would be a foolish employer who thought they could get rid of a disabled employee without consequence, simply because of their disability.
Whilst you might empathize with your employer about the difficulty and expense of employing you, you really need to be looking out for number one. I'd suggest you should seek some specialist advice from an employment lawyer asap, and maybe the CAB or a specialist charity, as well as talking to your doctor.
I'd say it's imperative for you to get yourself considered 'disabled' rather than 'sick', as that will afford you much more protection in law as I understand it.
Magog said:
It sounds to me like the chronic and debilitating nature of your illness means that you could well be considered disabled. It would be a foolish employer who thought they could get rid of a disabled employee without consequence, simply because of their disability.
The way it works with long term illness and disability in my experience is always around that person’s ability to do their job and the employer has to take reasonable steps to ensure that any disabled member of staff has the same opportunities to do their job as any other employee. So they have a duty of care under the law to make reasonable adjustments to enable a disabled employee to continue working.
Under UK law you cannot be discriminated against because you’re disabled but just because you’re classed as disabled it doesn't make it any less likely you’ll be considered for termination if you cannot fulfil the obligations of your employment contract (i.e. being at work).
Slurms said:
The way it works with long term illness and disability in my experience is always around that person’s ability to do their job and the employer has to take reasonable steps to ensure that any disabled member of staff has the same opportunities to do their job as any other employee.
So they have a duty of care under the law to make reasonable adjustments to enable a disabled employee to continue working.
Under UK law you cannot be discriminated against because you’re disabled but just because you’re classed as disabled it doesn't make it any less likely you’ll be considered for termination if you cannot fulfil the obligations of your employment contract (i.e. being at work).
That sounds reasonable. Sounds like the OP should be looking to sit down with his bosses and have a plan going forward as to what support he requires and what might happen.So they have a duty of care under the law to make reasonable adjustments to enable a disabled employee to continue working.
Under UK law you cannot be discriminated against because you’re disabled but just because you’re classed as disabled it doesn't make it any less likely you’ll be considered for termination if you cannot fulfil the obligations of your employment contract (i.e. being at work).
I assume if the OP is working in a hands on type job it's far easier to prove that adaptions and flexibility might be unreasonable on the part of the employer.
Does the employer have any duties to offer alternative work that might be more suitable if it's available?
Magog said:
Slurms said:
The way it works with long term illness and disability in my experience is always around that person’s ability to do their job and the employer has to take reasonable steps to ensure that any disabled member of staff has the same opportunities to do their job as any other employee.
So they have a duty of care under the law to make reasonable adjustments to enable a disabled employee to continue working.
Under UK law you cannot be discriminated against because you’re disabled but just because you’re classed as disabled it doesn't make it any less likely you’ll be considered for termination if you cannot fulfil the obligations of your employment contract (i.e. being at work).
That sounds reasonable. Sounds like the OP should be looking to sit down with his bosses and have a plan going forward as to what support he requires and what might happen.So they have a duty of care under the law to make reasonable adjustments to enable a disabled employee to continue working.
Under UK law you cannot be discriminated against because you’re disabled but just because you’re classed as disabled it doesn't make it any less likely you’ll be considered for termination if you cannot fulfil the obligations of your employment contract (i.e. being at work).
I assume if the OP is working in a hands on type job it's far easier to prove that adaptions and flexibility might be unreasonable on the part of the employer.
Does the employer have any duties to offer alternative work that might be more suitable if it's available?
It really depends on the situation but typically changes to a workstation to accomodate someone with a disability wouldn't be considered unreasonable - so it's the kind of thing that should be offered.
They don't have to offer an alternative role - they may choose to if prompted, especially if it could help resolve the situation positively for all concerned but I don't believe they have to.
CrowCrow00 said:
So, to cut a long story short: What is the procedure for dismissing someone in a case like this?
Unfortunately, I have had to do this on a handful of occasions where quite simply the employee is absent from work more than they are in.
Right, sorry for not replying earlier. The company has said that I'm covered under the Disability Discrimination Act, but as far as them taking steps to make my job easier there isn't really anything they can do for me. I work in a busy manufacturing factory, and we have to follow a strict process and are timed as we work. Two years ago they allowed me to reduce my working week by one day, so I now work 28.5 hours per week.
They explicitly state they don't offer 'light duties' roles, although the older guys in their 60s are given easier jobs apparently by coincidence, they would never admit to giving them those roles because they can't work fast enough in other areas. But even so, it's not really the job that affects me, it's just living day to day with the illness. My symptoms are usually severe fatigue, abdominal and liver pain, occasionally bad joint pain. Nothing that is caused by the job, or that could be made better by doing less work. I still feel like that whether I'm at work or not.
It was just the comment from my manager that I mentioned above which worried me: "we thought that reducing your hours would prevent this happening, but it's affecting your work now". All this does is encourages me to go to work when I'm ill rather than not. There has already been one instance where a manager (now retired) pulled me aside and told me that my performance was s
t and that he would take me to a disciplinary hearing if I was absent from work. So I carried on because I was worried about what would happen, and in the end I had to go to A&E and spend 8 days in hospital. This was what led to me requesting to reduce my hours slightly in the first place.
At the moment I'm just trying to save my money and settling any kind of monthly outgoings I have e.g insurance and whatnot. Even if it comes to nothing this time, I still have no idea what I'll do in the future. Obviously I have bills to pay, and my illness is only going to get worse.
They explicitly state they don't offer 'light duties' roles, although the older guys in their 60s are given easier jobs apparently by coincidence, they would never admit to giving them those roles because they can't work fast enough in other areas. But even so, it's not really the job that affects me, it's just living day to day with the illness. My symptoms are usually severe fatigue, abdominal and liver pain, occasionally bad joint pain. Nothing that is caused by the job, or that could be made better by doing less work. I still feel like that whether I'm at work or not.
It was just the comment from my manager that I mentioned above which worried me: "we thought that reducing your hours would prevent this happening, but it's affecting your work now". All this does is encourages me to go to work when I'm ill rather than not. There has already been one instance where a manager (now retired) pulled me aside and told me that my performance was s
t and that he would take me to a disciplinary hearing if I was absent from work. So I carried on because I was worried about what would happen, and in the end I had to go to A&E and spend 8 days in hospital. This was what led to me requesting to reduce my hours slightly in the first place.At the moment I'm just trying to save my money and settling any kind of monthly outgoings I have e.g insurance and whatnot. Even if it comes to nothing this time, I still have no idea what I'll do in the future. Obviously I have bills to pay, and my illness is only going to get worse.
Gargamel said:
Do you have income protection insurance ?
Very tough situation. Could you request redundancy on enhanced terms? Then seek alternative work?
There is a process the employer can take, but it is difficult for them.
The employer will know how tricky this is for them too. Offering them a way out may be just what they're looking for, and you may do quite well out of it too. Very tough situation. Could you request redundancy on enhanced terms? Then seek alternative work?
There is a process the employer can take, but it is difficult for them.
It may be worth having a sit down with someone who does employment law (are you a union member?) to walk you through the options.
Thanks for the advice so far. I don't have income protection insurance as I was 19 when I was diagnosed with the illness, and being young I never considered things like that. I assume they won't cover me with an existing illness.
As for redundancy, I'm certain they wouldn't go for that and they'd take it as if I was demanding money to be out of their way. Even if they did I've only worked there for five years and the redundancy figure wouldn't be great due to me working one day less for the past two years. I don't know if they'd use the figure of what I get paid now for the whole lot, or would allow for the three years I worked full-time and earned more.
While I am seriously pondering whether or not I should be considering what other jobs I could do, do you think someone would actually employ me? When I started this job I was asked how long I've been absent for in the past, and then they phoned up my old employer to confirm. I can't imagine anyone would take me on if they knew I had an illness and was likely to have time off. I know employers aren't supposed to discriminate, but in the real world if they had two candidates applying for a job I'm sure they'd pick the least ill of the two.
As for redundancy, I'm certain they wouldn't go for that and they'd take it as if I was demanding money to be out of their way. Even if they did I've only worked there for five years and the redundancy figure wouldn't be great due to me working one day less for the past two years. I don't know if they'd use the figure of what I get paid now for the whole lot, or would allow for the three years I worked full-time and earned more.
While I am seriously pondering whether or not I should be considering what other jobs I could do, do you think someone would actually employ me? When I started this job I was asked how long I've been absent for in the past, and then they phoned up my old employer to confirm. I can't imagine anyone would take me on if they knew I had an illness and was likely to have time off. I know employers aren't supposed to discriminate, but in the real world if they had two candidates applying for a job I'm sure they'd pick the least ill of the two.
It's an awful situation for you and, I should imagine, difficult for your employer too.
Do you enjoy your job and what makes you think that they are looking to get rid of you now, apart from your condition?
I would like to think that, if you talk openly to the boss, he may make compromises to try and help you either by working from home, or by working part time - ideally something that works for you both.
The may chose to go down the dismissal route by following certain routes but, equally, they may try to work with you if your work has always been good and they value you.
I did it with one of my staff when he went on long term sick from which no one expected him to recover - happily he did and is back with me.
He went from full time to part time, to several months off (when we all feared the worst) back to part time and now full time again - so it can work.
Good luck mate!
Do you enjoy your job and what makes you think that they are looking to get rid of you now, apart from your condition?
I would like to think that, if you talk openly to the boss, he may make compromises to try and help you either by working from home, or by working part time - ideally something that works for you both.
The may chose to go down the dismissal route by following certain routes but, equally, they may try to work with you if your work has always been good and they value you.
I did it with one of my staff when he went on long term sick from which no one expected him to recover - happily he did and is back with me.
He went from full time to part time, to several months off (when we all feared the worst) back to part time and now full time again - so it can work.
Good luck mate!
CrowCrow00 said:
Thanks for the advice so far. I don't have income protection insurance as I was 19 when I was diagnosed with the illness, and being young I never considered things like that. I assume they won't cover me with an existing illness.
As for redundancy, I'm certain they wouldn't go for that and they'd take it as if I was demanding money to be out of their way. Even if they did I've only worked there for five years and the redundancy figure wouldn't be great due to me working one day less for the past two years. I don't know if they'd use the figure of what I get paid now for the whole lot, or would allow for the three years I worked full-time and earned more.
While I am seriously pondering whether or not I should be considering what other jobs I could do, do you think someone would actually employ me? When I started this job I was asked how long I've been absent for in the past, and then they phoned up my old employer to confirm. I can't imagine anyone would take me on if they knew I had an illness and was likely to have time off. I know employers aren't supposed to discriminate, but in the real world if they had two candidates applying for a job I'm sure they'd pick the least ill of the two.
There are quite a lot of things you don't know in that post. It's clear the uncertainty of it all is getting to you. I think you need to seek either re assurance from your employer that they are RIGHT behind you and supportive. Or that they present your options to you so you can make an informed decision. As for redundancy, I'm certain they wouldn't go for that and they'd take it as if I was demanding money to be out of their way. Even if they did I've only worked there for five years and the redundancy figure wouldn't be great due to me working one day less for the past two years. I don't know if they'd use the figure of what I get paid now for the whole lot, or would allow for the three years I worked full-time and earned more.
While I am seriously pondering whether or not I should be considering what other jobs I could do, do you think someone would actually employ me? When I started this job I was asked how long I've been absent for in the past, and then they phoned up my old employer to confirm. I can't imagine anyone would take me on if they knew I had an illness and was likely to have time off. I know employers aren't supposed to discriminate, but in the real world if they had two candidates applying for a job I'm sure they'd pick the least ill of the two.
They may be prepared to offer ENHANCED redundancy on the basis that it would be quicker and cheaper than going the dismissal route (if that is what they intend, which is by no means clear)
Why not set up a discussion with you boss, approach it along the lines of you want to let them know you are comitted to the job and the company, but worried about how your illness is progressing and you'd like to understand honestly what there view is...
Difficult to do, but I think the uncertainty is clearly causing you some anxiety. Or talk to the Citizen Advice Bureau.
You did not mention if you are getting sick pay from your employer and if so for how long. If there is no sick pay or if there is and you are absent beyond the sick pay period you may find that your employer just sits tight as there would no financial motivation. Sometimes an employer will be happier to let issues take there natural course rather than force things with the risk of being accused of acting unfairly.
Also, whilst not knowing your age or employment history, if you had employment, now or previously, with a company that provided a DB scheme if your situation persists there could be could be an opportunity for full or partial ill health retirement.
Finally, I would urge you to be open with your employer. Write everything down and make extra effort to show you are being reasonable, for example if you have any update on your medical condition write to your employer to tell them and say you will update them again soon etc. If you have conversations with your manager take notes and better still write to the manager after to confirm what you discussed.
Hope things pan out for you.
Also, whilst not knowing your age or employment history, if you had employment, now or previously, with a company that provided a DB scheme if your situation persists there could be could be an opportunity for full or partial ill health retirement.
Finally, I would urge you to be open with your employer. Write everything down and make extra effort to show you are being reasonable, for example if you have any update on your medical condition write to your employer to tell them and say you will update them again soon etc. If you have conversations with your manager take notes and better still write to the manager after to confirm what you discussed.
Hope things pan out for you.
OP, your difficulty is that your disability prevents you from working at all for intermittent periods. If there are no other jobs within the organisation that you could do even when unwell the only adjustment your employer could make would be to accept your disability absences. This may or may not be reasonable. Your employer needs to consider how it could make adjustments to cover for you when you are ill. This may be inconvenient and even increase costs but it is something they need to consider.
If they cannot or the costs or inconvenience are unreasonable then notwithstanding you are disabled you could be fairly dismissed on grounds of capability (health)) without being discriminated against because of your disability.
Prospective employers, generally, cannot lawfully ask you questions about your health before offering you a job. This includes health related absences.
In the meantime it is important for your employer to understand that adjustments are not limited to helping you to achieve the attendance policy's acceptable level of absence but may extend to adjusting the policy itself in your case.
If they cannot or the costs or inconvenience are unreasonable then notwithstanding you are disabled you could be fairly dismissed on grounds of capability (health)) without being discriminated against because of your disability.
Prospective employers, generally, cannot lawfully ask you questions about your health before offering you a job. This includes health related absences.
In the meantime it is important for your employer to understand that adjustments are not limited to helping you to achieve the attendance policy's acceptable level of absence but may extend to adjusting the policy itself in your case.
Zeeky said:
OP, your difficulty is that your disability prevents you from working at all for intermittent periods. If there are no other jobs within the organisation that you could do even when unwell the only adjustment your employer could make would be to accept your disability absences. This may or may not be reasonable. Your employer needs to consider how it could make adjustments to cover for you when you are ill. This may be inconvenient and even increase costs but it is something they need to consider.
Thanks. We've always been told in general that there are no options for light duties in our workplace. I think the issue for me is that the work is performance-based and we are constantly timed, as there are days when I've just been too fatigued and know I wouldn't stand a chance of getting my quota done. They have a strict policy on working speed, and can discipline you for not hitting targets on four occasions. So maybe if there was something less physically intense it would help me. Keep it stiff said:
You did not mention if you are getting sick pay from your employer and if so for how long. If there is no sick pay or if there is and you are absent beyond the sick pay period you may find that your employer just sits tight as there would no financial motivation. Sometimes an employer will be happier to let issues take there natural course rather than force things with the risk of being accused of acting unfairly.
Also, whilst not knowing your age or employment history, if you had employment, now or previously, with a company that provided a DB scheme if your situation persists there could be could be an opportunity for full or partial ill health retirement.
Finally, I would urge you to be open with your employer. Write everything down and make extra effort to show you are being reasonable, for example if you have any update on your medical condition write to your employer to tell them and say you will update them again soon etc. If you have conversations with your manager take notes and better still write to the manager after to confirm what you discussed.
Hope things pan out for you.
I was getting sick pay, it ran out while I was off two weeks ago. I'm covered for 12 days off work in a rolling year. I'm 27, so retirement is not really an option for me. Also, whilst not knowing your age or employment history, if you had employment, now or previously, with a company that provided a DB scheme if your situation persists there could be could be an opportunity for full or partial ill health retirement.
Finally, I would urge you to be open with your employer. Write everything down and make extra effort to show you are being reasonable, for example if you have any update on your medical condition write to your employer to tell them and say you will update them again soon etc. If you have conversations with your manager take notes and better still write to the manager after to confirm what you discussed.
Hope things pan out for you.
No-one in the company has ever spoken to me about my illness, all I got was a letter confirming I would be able to reduce my hours a couple of years ago, nothing else apart from that. This is something which annoys me as the only information they have is what their company doctor has provided, and this doctor doesn't know me or how it affects me, only what is written down on my medical record.
I have asked to speak with someone, but I work in Newcastle and our headquarters are in Hampshire so it's difficult to get things to happen. Most of the time things will never go beyond my manager for whatever reason. They have just requested access to my medical records for a second time and are sending me to the company doctor in order to see if they can do something else for me. I'm reluctant to suggest having an easier role due to what they've said about there being none in the past. If they think I can't manage my current role and there are no others would that be something they could get rid of me for?
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