Headhunters are the scum of the earth
Discussion
What is it about recruitment consultants, particularly headhunters, that make me want to get violent - and Im a passive albeit 6'5" guy normally? Is it their parasitic career choice in general or the disingenuois manner of excusing what they know damn well to be nothing but theft of people capital. I don't know - maybe its simply the flippant way they destroy good and nice things, relationships built over years and create an atmosphere of spying and counter-measures in organisation - then they use the atmosphere they breed as a mechanism to cause discord and convince a good person that a nice company is dishonest.
Lets not listen the recruitment consultant (RC) trolls will have us beleive that they are merely greasing the HR marketplace, and that leavers were on their way out anyway. This is just nonsense.
The whole basis for RCs is in my opinion pointless. When i graduated, we looked at adverts in the newspapers or perhaps on the internet. Agencies were for senior executives or temps. Nowadays the lazy young graduates expect to have employers chase them (a sign of the times in many ways) and their self-important perspective is fueled by the agency recruiter telling them how special they are. You see, RC's make their money not from finding good matches per se or helping a company to build a team over the long term, but by completing transactions. They will even steal from companies that are their clients (dont beleive those anti-poaching clauses work). All that matters is they get their fees paid.
And how does this practice help the economy. So much time is wasted by companies endlessly defending against unsolicited calls from RC;s to their staff who they have handpicked, trained and paid well over many years. Its not always big companies who have people in reserve. Sometimes, you can be in a small organisation where there is harmony and all of a suddent somoene causes havoc and in-fighting as people learn that someone has left for more money or gym membership or working at home. If it were about the reality of people getting more then i wouldnt mind so much - but in most cases, people are not happier after. I know of several leavers who wished they didnt, found it was no better, realised it was them inside who were hunhappy not the job, who hated the RC who ruined their friendship with colleagues, and two in my dept who came back. The problem for employers is there is less incentive to train people or invest in them because no matter what they do, some shiftly little agent thinks they are doign the world a favour by stirring things up and causing discord.
I hear the RC retort 'so why did they leave, are you saying people are stupid?' - well yes - we are stupid. All of us. Its human nature to think sometimes that others are doing better and when you are rang constantly with 'are you still there' 'did you know Mr X moved last year when we last spoke and they are now earning £10k more which could be total lies but they say it anyway. Even the most loyal will begin to beleive things. Its easy to beleive the lies if someone says they are being undervalued where they are - its an easy card to play. There are always bad days so there are times when people will be irritated with each other. That isnt a time when you need a third party to start mixing things up.
In the end companies pay more to employees and this filters through to higher prices and an uncompeitive country for exports and home produced goods. It cause unemployment as companies cannot afford two people. And small business owners can never grow to a point where they can let others manage and run it (the only reward for 20 years of entrpreneurship and hard work) because your best people will always be a target for these parasites. There is no way to stop this pestilence that is recruitment consulting. People are lazy and ultimately want someone else to go and find them a job rather than look themselves. We know from convenience store pricing that poeple are essentially lazy and that convenience and instant gratification is everything. While there is no societal pressure to stop being a taker and start contributing, the RC will thrive. The RC's tap into this laziness and people's greed and sense of distrust. Society encourages greed and disloyalty. I once saw an Easyjet billboard advertising that people should 'hop off for a cheeky sickie away'. This made me so angry. When society encourages dishonesty and laziness, what hope is there.
I know of RCs (i have two friends who used to do this to my great disgust) who find a disgruntled employee who perhaps writes something on a blog or a forum like this one and they get private messaged and asked if they know of really great people in their company that are also fed up. For the names and email addresses, they are even offered inducements. So this is not about people who are leaving anyway just getting some help or advice to ensure a fair market for labour vs employer. This is about espionage and worse cannabalism, since the RC will have no qualms about stealing from the client later to serve another.
Note that all RC agencies have strict no poaching agreements with their staff and thier clients.
Would we put up with this in personal relationships? Can you imagine a dating site ringing you while you are in bed with your wife (no different to calling an employee at his desk) and saying that they have heard things are not what they used to be between you. That surely its time for you to move onto the next relationship. Joking aside, i can see the plus points :-), this would cause society to crack. I dont think it is illegal and i am sure its just a matter of time before people do this. But I think people would react against this. I really honestly do not see any difference here. RC's are breakig up relationships formed over many years and with empty promises.
Just as traffic wardens once managed the limited resource of parking spaces and ensured that terribly inconsiderate or dangerous parkers were fined/towed, so the recruitment consultant once served a useful purpose in helping talented jobless executives or temporary staff find a matching employer. But we all know how traffic wardens of whatever they are now called, have transformed into money-grabbing agents of council subcontractor, who care less abot parking management and love nothing more thana slightly badly parked car so they can fill their quota (proven just a couple of days ago in court) to generate money for the council - yes the people you vote for. I see this as identical to RC's - total f******g w******s
Lets not listen the recruitment consultant (RC) trolls will have us beleive that they are merely greasing the HR marketplace, and that leavers were on their way out anyway. This is just nonsense.
The whole basis for RCs is in my opinion pointless. When i graduated, we looked at adverts in the newspapers or perhaps on the internet. Agencies were for senior executives or temps. Nowadays the lazy young graduates expect to have employers chase them (a sign of the times in many ways) and their self-important perspective is fueled by the agency recruiter telling them how special they are. You see, RC's make their money not from finding good matches per se or helping a company to build a team over the long term, but by completing transactions. They will even steal from companies that are their clients (dont beleive those anti-poaching clauses work). All that matters is they get their fees paid.
And how does this practice help the economy. So much time is wasted by companies endlessly defending against unsolicited calls from RC;s to their staff who they have handpicked, trained and paid well over many years. Its not always big companies who have people in reserve. Sometimes, you can be in a small organisation where there is harmony and all of a suddent somoene causes havoc and in-fighting as people learn that someone has left for more money or gym membership or working at home. If it were about the reality of people getting more then i wouldnt mind so much - but in most cases, people are not happier after. I know of several leavers who wished they didnt, found it was no better, realised it was them inside who were hunhappy not the job, who hated the RC who ruined their friendship with colleagues, and two in my dept who came back. The problem for employers is there is less incentive to train people or invest in them because no matter what they do, some shiftly little agent thinks they are doign the world a favour by stirring things up and causing discord.
I hear the RC retort 'so why did they leave, are you saying people are stupid?' - well yes - we are stupid. All of us. Its human nature to think sometimes that others are doing better and when you are rang constantly with 'are you still there' 'did you know Mr X moved last year when we last spoke and they are now earning £10k more which could be total lies but they say it anyway. Even the most loyal will begin to beleive things. Its easy to beleive the lies if someone says they are being undervalued where they are - its an easy card to play. There are always bad days so there are times when people will be irritated with each other. That isnt a time when you need a third party to start mixing things up.
In the end companies pay more to employees and this filters through to higher prices and an uncompeitive country for exports and home produced goods. It cause unemployment as companies cannot afford two people. And small business owners can never grow to a point where they can let others manage and run it (the only reward for 20 years of entrpreneurship and hard work) because your best people will always be a target for these parasites. There is no way to stop this pestilence that is recruitment consulting. People are lazy and ultimately want someone else to go and find them a job rather than look themselves. We know from convenience store pricing that poeple are essentially lazy and that convenience and instant gratification is everything. While there is no societal pressure to stop being a taker and start contributing, the RC will thrive. The RC's tap into this laziness and people's greed and sense of distrust. Society encourages greed and disloyalty. I once saw an Easyjet billboard advertising that people should 'hop off for a cheeky sickie away'. This made me so angry. When society encourages dishonesty and laziness, what hope is there.
I know of RCs (i have two friends who used to do this to my great disgust) who find a disgruntled employee who perhaps writes something on a blog or a forum like this one and they get private messaged and asked if they know of really great people in their company that are also fed up. For the names and email addresses, they are even offered inducements. So this is not about people who are leaving anyway just getting some help or advice to ensure a fair market for labour vs employer. This is about espionage and worse cannabalism, since the RC will have no qualms about stealing from the client later to serve another.
Note that all RC agencies have strict no poaching agreements with their staff and thier clients.
Would we put up with this in personal relationships? Can you imagine a dating site ringing you while you are in bed with your wife (no different to calling an employee at his desk) and saying that they have heard things are not what they used to be between you. That surely its time for you to move onto the next relationship. Joking aside, i can see the plus points :-), this would cause society to crack. I dont think it is illegal and i am sure its just a matter of time before people do this. But I think people would react against this. I really honestly do not see any difference here. RC's are breakig up relationships formed over many years and with empty promises.
Just as traffic wardens once managed the limited resource of parking spaces and ensured that terribly inconsiderate or dangerous parkers were fined/towed, so the recruitment consultant once served a useful purpose in helping talented jobless executives or temporary staff find a matching employer. But we all know how traffic wardens of whatever they are now called, have transformed into money-grabbing agents of council subcontractor, who care less abot parking management and love nothing more thana slightly badly parked car so they can fill their quota (proven just a couple of days ago in court) to generate money for the council - yes the people you vote for. I see this as identical to RC's - total f******g w******s
Edited by losingthewill on Thursday 2nd February 20:37
Haggleburyfinius said:
So what happened then to cause this explosion?
Not the usual first post on here
i took the phone off an RC today tapping up one of my team and listened to them slutter tryng to explain as we found out they were someone we have used to get temp staff for our exhibition events. I had to let off steam in the only website forum i know i can trust from months of reading without posting.Not the usual first post on here
losingthewill said:
Haggleburyfinius said:
So what happened then to cause this explosion?
Not the usual first post on here
i took the phone off an RC today tapping up one of my team and listened to them slutter tryng to explain as we found out they were someone we have used to get temp staff for our exhibition events. I had to let off steam in the only website forum i know i can trust from months of reading without posting.Not the usual first post on here
However, unexpected? Not really...
P.S. Are you a Director of this company?
Poll your workers. See if they really are happy. If not fix it, if so, they won't leave for an extra £100 a month, guaranteed.
People need a reason to leave somewhere IMO. It's also a 'something' - not a 'nothing'. By this I mean that there is a 'barrier to moving' that they have to mentally overcome to make a move, so it should be easier to hold onto people than to have them leave all over the shot.
There is a great youtube vid on personal satisfaction, how it's acheived and how it motivates. Worth digging out if you care...
People need a reason to leave somewhere IMO. It's also a 'something' - not a 'nothing'. By this I mean that there is a 'barrier to moving' that they have to mentally overcome to make a move, so it should be easier to hold onto people than to have them leave all over the shot.
There is a great youtube vid on personal satisfaction, how it's acheived and how it motivates. Worth digging out if you care...
Haggleburyfinius said:
That's not good, I agree.
However, unexpected? Not really...
P.S. Are you a Director of this company?
yes - apologies for my typos - my keyboard is getting the brunt of these attacks.However, unexpected? Not really...
P.S. Are you a Director of this company?
i think there needs to be statutory regulation here. i have long advocated for CV's to be made public on a government database so that they can be verified to be true and accurate and that real references from a multiple choice form are provided. Naturally anti-paoching legislation would be required at the same time.
I know this sounds one sided as a director but lazy/selfish workers and recruitment consultants are the scourge of the economy.
I'm sure there are bad employers too but i really think the scales have tipped massively the other way in favour of the workforce to the point where the economy is at stake. I am minded to sell up to an American conglomerate and retire somewhere hot. Its what everyone is doing !
stuthemong said:
Poll your workers. See if they really are happy. If not fix it, if so, they won't leave for an extra £100 a month, guaranteed.
People need a reason to leave somewhere IMO. It's also a 'something' - not a 'nothing'. By this I mean that there is a 'barrier to moving' that they have to mentally overcome to make a move, so it should be easier to hold onto people than to have them leave all over the shot.
There is a great youtube vid on personal satisfaction, how it's acheived and how it motivates. Worth digging out if you care...
we have never actually done a poll. i think we are frightened not of the result but by the process - everyone likes to have a gripe. perhaps a suggestion box...People need a reason to leave somewhere IMO. It's also a 'something' - not a 'nothing'. By this I mean that there is a 'barrier to moving' that they have to mentally overcome to make a move, so it should be easier to hold onto people than to have them leave all over the shot.
There is a great youtube vid on personal satisfaction, how it's acheived and how it motivates. Worth digging out if you care...
but genuinely, i actually think we have quite a happy workforce. we positively encourage personal development, we do events for the staff. we have team competitions and big parties. there are employee of the month and year competitions and its all done in a fun way organised by the staff themselves. everyone is paid at least 15% above market rate - there is a company bonus for hitting our turnover target which is very generous. we have great offices with cool furniture and the latest computers and equirpment. we are a snazzy brand and well known and regarded. As a result (i have seen the changes in staff turnover in the last 6 years drastically change) we are seen as a long term option - but the bottom line is, people are always looking for the next step up the ladder and I'm sorry to say but many people feel they deserve things too early and without proving themselves. The issue is agencies are promising a new company that Mr A is proven and then telling Mr A that the new company is desperate for someone of their talent and will pay more. They frighten them saying if they dont move now, they may get stuck there and future employers may ask why they didnt move.
I can tell you that if we get an application from ANY person with more than one job that lasted less than 2 years then we will simply disregard them irrespective of how good they may be. If we see someone with two or three roles where they stayed for 5 years plus then we will pay them more and they are twice as likely to get the role.
Edited by losingthewill on Thursday 2nd February 21:16
They're not really headhunters (whatever that means) are they? If they supply you with temps I would suggest it's recruitment agents that you have a problem with. A proper 'search' or headhunter is retained (paid up front) by the hiring company, under such circumstances would the hiring company qualify as scum in your eyes also?
Blue62 said:
They're not really headhunters (whatever that means) are they? If they supply you with temps I would suggest it's recruitment agents that you have a problem with. A proper 'search' or headhunter is retained (paid up front) by the hiring company, under such circumstances would the hiring company qualify as scum in your eyes also?
This company is a traditional recruitment agency that supply temps but also do headhunting on retainer too. The latter was the reason for todays chat.Yes - i would say the hiring company is scum because they are no doubt a competitor and want to steal from me and are getting someone else to do their dirty work.
I like to use the term headhunter instead of the euphemism 'executive search' because i dont want to engage in the sanitisation of this vile profession
Hi, I am a headhunter, and appear to be cast in the role of defender of the true faith.
I have been an HH for the last 10 years and spent the six before that in an agency.
Is an employee, who leaves a company (which they love) to take a role which in their opinion is a career step up into a bigger job, really selfish?
Aren't they just trying to advance themselves, earn more, challenge themselves more.
Is the process by which this happens relevant. If I advertised the role in the paper and put "Great Job" is that any different from calling them or emailing them and saying it?
I have been an HH for the last 10 years and spent the six before that in an agency.
Is an employee, who leaves a company (which they love) to take a role which in their opinion is a career step up into a bigger job, really selfish?
Aren't they just trying to advance themselves, earn more, challenge themselves more.
Is the process by which this happens relevant. If I advertised the role in the paper and put "Great Job" is that any different from calling them or emailing them and saying it?
Gargamel said:
Hi, I am a headhunter, and appear to be cast in the role of defender of the true faith.
I have been an HH for the last 10 years and spent the six before that in an agency.
Is an employee, who leaves a company (which they love) to take a role which in their opinion is a career step up into a bigger job, really selfish?
Aren't they just trying to advance themselves, earn more, challenge themselves more.
Is the process by which this happens relevant. If I advertised the role in the paper and put "Great Job" is that any different from calling them or emailing them and saying it?
Hi Gargamel - yes it is different to placing an advert. An advert is an open invitation to the marketplace of a vacant position. Nothing wrong with that at all. But calling someone at their desk, while i am paying them to work for me is an insult and degrading to any professional.I have been an HH for the last 10 years and spent the six before that in an agency.
Is an employee, who leaves a company (which they love) to take a role which in their opinion is a career step up into a bigger job, really selfish?
Aren't they just trying to advance themselves, earn more, challenge themselves more.
Is the process by which this happens relevant. If I advertised the role in the paper and put "Great Job" is that any different from calling them or emailing them and saying it?
Just as the police cannot entrap you into a crime and this is seen as unfair, so i beleive that someone calling up and stirring up trouble is causing someone to leave without them really wanting to. I actually think that if someone really doesnt like their employer then they would leave beforehand so all the headhunter is doing is dangling grass is greener to someone settled but human.
In practice, good headhunters attend industry shows, they seek our company directories - they interfere in the smooth goings on and create conflict.
With respect to you personally but only to make a point - you would see the difference between a stranger posting a profile on a dating site which your wife, may if she wished to, look at and respond to and a stranger contacting your house while you were at home and start saying how bad a person you were.
Also you make the process of leaving sound so painless and victimless. In reality people in crucial positions leave companies shattered and cause distress. They cannot work out notice as they have too much access so go on garden leave. The company is left to struggle through and it causes so much damage.
Further the employee would in normal circumstances speak to their managers about wanting a new role or more responsibility or less but instead of the company having an open and frank dialogue with each other so they can both get the best out of things, they have this univited third party sticking their nose in.
Edited by losingthewill on Thursday 2nd February 22:08
Of course I take your point.
Loyalty is a two way thing, many people I call, listen and then say, thanks for calling I am happy here. If I tell a candidate bad things about his firm which are patently NOT their experience, then I would fail very quickly and have zero credibility.
You are correct in a earlier comment, the industry isn't regulated and I am afraid the is some really bad practice out there.
The vast majority of us would consider it very bad form to critise an existing employer. It smacks of desperation for one thing.
It is a tough market at the moment, and you should sleep soundly each night safe in the knowledge that right now, many cowboy recruiters are going bust. Indeed it is these straightened times which lead to these low tactics.
Personally I am happy to sell the dream to someone, but I take care to be honest with people - after all it is a small market place and my reputation is on the line with every call.
Loyalty is a two way thing, many people I call, listen and then say, thanks for calling I am happy here. If I tell a candidate bad things about his firm which are patently NOT their experience, then I would fail very quickly and have zero credibility.
You are correct in a earlier comment, the industry isn't regulated and I am afraid the is some really bad practice out there.
The vast majority of us would consider it very bad form to critise an existing employer. It smacks of desperation for one thing.
It is a tough market at the moment, and you should sleep soundly each night safe in the knowledge that right now, many cowboy recruiters are going bust. Indeed it is these straightened times which lead to these low tactics.
Personally I am happy to sell the dream to someone, but I take care to be honest with people - after all it is a small market place and my reputation is on the line with every call.
Gargamel said:
Of course I take your point.
Loyalty is a two way thing, many people I call, listen and then say, thanks for calling I am happy here. If I tell a candidate bad things about his firm which are patently NOT their experience, then I would fail very quickly and have zero credibility.
You are correct in a earlier comment, the industry isn't regulated and I am afraid the is some really bad practice out there.
The vast majority of us would consider it very bad form to critise an existing employer. It smacks of desperation for one thing.
It is a tough market at the moment, and you should sleep soundly each night safe in the knowledge that right now, many cowboy recruiters are going bust. Indeed it is these straightened times which lead to these low tactics.
Personally I am happy to sell the dream to someone, but I take care to be honest with people - after all it is a small market place and my reputation is on the line with every call.
you sound like a decent professional who has been round the block with this thing.Loyalty is a two way thing, many people I call, listen and then say, thanks for calling I am happy here. If I tell a candidate bad things about his firm which are patently NOT their experience, then I would fail very quickly and have zero credibility.
You are correct in a earlier comment, the industry isn't regulated and I am afraid the is some really bad practice out there.
The vast majority of us would consider it very bad form to critise an existing employer. It smacks of desperation for one thing.
It is a tough market at the moment, and you should sleep soundly each night safe in the knowledge that right now, many cowboy recruiters are going bust. Indeed it is these straightened times which lead to these low tactics.
Personally I am happy to sell the dream to someone, but I take care to be honest with people - after all it is a small market place and my reputation is on the line with every call.
I am sure neverthless that you have a databaseof people who said no. Sooner or later, your new client who wants someone like my guy will cause you to shoot off an email and say 'i know you said last time that you were happy, but i have this new opportunity and wondered if things have changed - it cant hurt to meet...'
I take some solace in that the recession has been amazing for our business - although sales growth has flattened, people have stayed and as a result the company is a great place to be. everyone is happy with having colleagues to act as backup if sick - we never got rid of anyone and still hired people to invest in leaner times. we have played an honest game here and its true loyalty is a two way street.
I think this is what threw me today. Someone coming in to break up our family which has taken a decade of hard work to acheive. Many of the staff are too new to remember what it was like in the boom where 20% of company time was spent on HR - a total waste.
Whilst I tend to agree and find them loathsome, believe that there is a place for them in the modern work arena.
However, I still include them in my estimation with Estate Agents, Used Car Salesmen and Conmen.
I will take a call from these people sometimes. Ironically, this very morning it started with a "highly referred" to stroke my ego! Should I move on - in my head it creates an opportunity for a colleague to "step up" whilst I go to another role for challenge/money/lifestyle/opportunity/etc
Turnover and attrition is part of business and this is why succession planning is in place. As owners and managers/leaders we need to plan for this even if the tactics of recruiters is unfair/underhand.
What I struggle to rationalise - there are so many good people out of work at this time- why agencies feel the need to approach those already in employment?
However, I still include them in my estimation with Estate Agents, Used Car Salesmen and Conmen.
I will take a call from these people sometimes. Ironically, this very morning it started with a "highly referred" to stroke my ego! Should I move on - in my head it creates an opportunity for a colleague to "step up" whilst I go to another role for challenge/money/lifestyle/opportunity/etc
Turnover and attrition is part of business and this is why succession planning is in place. As owners and managers/leaders we need to plan for this even if the tactics of recruiters is unfair/underhand.
What I struggle to rationalise - there are so many good people out of work at this time- why agencies feel the need to approach those already in employment?
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