Aeronautical Engineers (or Engineers in general)
Discussion
Hi Everyone. I'm currently studying for a degree in aeronautical engineering with a view to doing my masters. After reading the thread started by 'groundeffect', I'd like to hear more about the careers and experiences of anyone else who is studying this degree or working in the industry. It is quite hard to come by graduate case studies and such so I figured this site would be as good as any for finding engineers! I'd love to hear about the careers of any engineers, not just aero, to get a feel for what kind of opportunities are out there. I've often been told that as many engineering graduates go into management roles as technical roles. I wonder how true this is?
I'd like to wish groundeffect all the best in securing a job - his success would give me a boost too!
Also, it is very true that engineers have an image problem! I guess that stems from the fact that we're a country with a relatively small manufacturing base - compared to Germany for example - so our profession is not quite so visible. The lack of recognition doesn't really bother me, it's just a shame that people don't appreciate what we do and the incredible contributions to human advancement that scientists and engineers have made in the past. I suppose the fact that the term 'engineer' covers just about anyone in a technical job is a bit unfortunate. It's a bit like the general public being unable to differentiate between a dentist and a dental nurse - no disrespect to the latter, but if you'd studied your ass off for the former you'd probably feel you'd earned the extra status!
I'd like to wish groundeffect all the best in securing a job - his success would give me a boost too!
Also, it is very true that engineers have an image problem! I guess that stems from the fact that we're a country with a relatively small manufacturing base - compared to Germany for example - so our profession is not quite so visible. The lack of recognition doesn't really bother me, it's just a shame that people don't appreciate what we do and the incredible contributions to human advancement that scientists and engineers have made in the past. I suppose the fact that the term 'engineer' covers just about anyone in a technical job is a bit unfortunate. It's a bit like the general public being unable to differentiate between a dentist and a dental nurse - no disrespect to the latter, but if you'd studied your ass off for the former you'd probably feel you'd earned the extra status!
Actually our manufacturing base isn't that small compared to Germany, its just that engineers in Germany are classified in a different way so that professionally qualified engineers are recognised and respected much more in the wider community.
Beware the nay-sayers that will arrive on this thread. There are plenty of opportunities in engineering in this country but those who wish to earn really good money don't tend to stay in a purely technical role.
Beware the nay-sayers that will arrive on this thread. There are plenty of opportunities in engineering in this country but those who wish to earn really good money don't tend to stay in a purely technical role.
Thanks for the support! It's definitely not easy being an engineering graduate in this economic climate. Simply put: DO YOUR MASTERS. Everyone at that interview I was at had theirs.
Engineer does have an odd status in the UK - in the US, for instance, engineer is a protected term where you have to be licensed to use it. Over here anyone from the designer of a Formula One engine to a dishwasher repairman can seem to hold that title. Personally it doesn't mean much to me as the 'Aeronautical' part of my title gives the true meaning.
As case studies go, I can't really give you mine...but as soon as I get a job, I will!
Engineer does have an odd status in the UK - in the US, for instance, engineer is a protected term where you have to be licensed to use it. Over here anyone from the designer of a Formula One engine to a dishwasher repairman can seem to hold that title. Personally it doesn't mean much to me as the 'Aeronautical' part of my title gives the true meaning.
As case studies go, I can't really give you mine...but as soon as I get a job, I will!
GroundEffect said:
Thanks for the support! It's definitely not easy being an engineering graduate in this economic climate. Simply put: DO YOUR MASTERS. Everyone at that interview I was at had theirs.
Engineer does have an odd status in the UK - in the US, for instance, engineer is a protected term where you have to be licensed to use it. Over here anyone from the designer of a Formula One engine to a dishwasher repairman can seem to hold that title. Personally it doesn't mean much to me as the 'Aeronautical' part of my title gives the true meaning.
Look up the definition of Engineer.Engineer does have an odd status in the UK - in the US, for instance, engineer is a protected term where you have to be licensed to use it. Over here anyone from the designer of a Formula One engine to a dishwasher repairman can seem to hold that title. Personally it doesn't mean much to me as the 'Aeronautical' part of my title gives the true meaning.
Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
I started my career as an engineer, but moved into IT as it pays more
98elise said:
Look up the definition of Engineer.
Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
I started my career as an engineer, but moved into IT as it pays more
I don't really care about the degree/no degree distinction. As long as they know what they are doing, and are doing actual engineering then they are engineers in my book.Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
I started my career as an engineer, but moved into IT as it pays more
I started my degree in Aero Engineering back in 92 (at Bristol) and dropped out to study chemistry as I found engineering too tough. I certainly appreciate the brains you guys must have!
Never used my degree, and work in IT as well - earning six figures...
Never used my degree, and work in IT as well - earning six figures...
Yes, quantum physics, an important part of chemistry, is far easier than engineering...
As said above, defo do the masters course. If anything it just makes getting to chartership that little smoother. It'll be worth your while.
Some companies like it when you have a masters already because it means they don't have to put you through the masters at their expense/time. That's if they offer such opportunities mind, not all do. Also then differentiates you from the BEng people. (though it's not to say you are necessarily better)
As for me
I graduated from Loughborough University in 2009 with a 1st, MEng in Mech Eng.
I havent typically had any problems with getting jobs, though I must admit, all but one of my past jobs have been acquired via the who I know route. That was at least one advantage of living in Middlesbrough at the time.... You were bound to know plenty of people who worked in the heavy industrial works like Corus, ICI and Kavaerner (now Aker recently taken over by american outfit Jacobs)
In 2008 I organised a job with Aker, to start in 2009 when I graduated with at least a 2:1. For this they paid my tuition fees for the year and stipulated a minimum term to work with them. However, and you couldn't make this up, hours after my final exam I got a call to say they just couldn't take me on because the recession had effectively stemmed their incoming work orders. So I got let go before I even started. They cut their losses though so I didn't have to pay them back.
That left me in a quandary as by then most grad schemes were now closing up. Alstom, who'd had their main scheme culled, were on the back foot and so it was late in the day when they finally got their respective schemes open for business. Essentially departments that still wanted grads had to sort their own schemes out, so they ended up with multiple separate schemes all running concurrently. I applied, I got interviewed along with six others and I was one of three to get picked for the jobs. I ended up in retrofits where they modify standard products to fit into power stations. For example a job I worked on site for, in South Africa, they were refitting a turbine set and generator in the only Nuclear plant in the country. The design was at least 20 years old. Its a core business for them but the engineering is very standard, run of the mill stuff. It just wasn't what I was after and I got quite bored of the whole thing, especially as I didn't get to do much engineering or even anything other than writing VBA code to save people doing things manually in excel. I did VBA coding in excel in practically every department I visited. They were either very reluctant to let me loose on something more substantial or they basically just didn't have the orders coming in to really utilise the work force. I'm going with the latter because they had me working on projects they shouldn't have been working on on account of they hadn't won the contract. The big bosses don't like to find out people are being used to do work that might not even materialise in real terms. (add to this long boring commute, costing me a fair chunk of my salary as well!)
So in short, wasn't for me. I just didn't click with it. It was also ruining my IMechE accreditation because every quarter I was submitting stuff done in excel and they said to me it could be likely I wont receive the year towards my CEng because the experiences didn't vary or cover enough of the competencies. I am partly to blame, I just didn't do my research on the company properly and ended up doing something I had no interest in. So I would say thoroughly research a company before you apply to make sure they do the kind of work you are likely to take to.
So I quit and now do a PhD back at Loughborough with one of my favourite lecturers (who is also the man who single handedly brings in the most research funding). Loving it so far, great people, great place, exciting work thats never been attempted by anyone anywhere. Loving it. I have also scrapped my IMechE eMPDS account completely, Instead I can retrospectively submit my 3 years PhD work when I am finished and have it count towards chartership. After all this PhD is run in conjunction with Caterpillar and is set up very much like an industrial project. Its exactly like having a job and the experiences are the same, if not more involved. I have to direct my own research, I have to write journal papers, present to higher ups at CAT and at conferences, training courses etc etc ...
At the end of it all you have to be happy. Being unhappy for the sake of getting on a grad scheme isn't worth it IMO.
Some companies like it when you have a masters already because it means they don't have to put you through the masters at their expense/time. That's if they offer such opportunities mind, not all do. Also then differentiates you from the BEng people. (though it's not to say you are necessarily better)
As for me
I graduated from Loughborough University in 2009 with a 1st, MEng in Mech Eng.
I havent typically had any problems with getting jobs, though I must admit, all but one of my past jobs have been acquired via the who I know route. That was at least one advantage of living in Middlesbrough at the time.... You were bound to know plenty of people who worked in the heavy industrial works like Corus, ICI and Kavaerner (now Aker recently taken over by american outfit Jacobs)
In 2008 I organised a job with Aker, to start in 2009 when I graduated with at least a 2:1. For this they paid my tuition fees for the year and stipulated a minimum term to work with them. However, and you couldn't make this up, hours after my final exam I got a call to say they just couldn't take me on because the recession had effectively stemmed their incoming work orders. So I got let go before I even started. They cut their losses though so I didn't have to pay them back.
That left me in a quandary as by then most grad schemes were now closing up. Alstom, who'd had their main scheme culled, were on the back foot and so it was late in the day when they finally got their respective schemes open for business. Essentially departments that still wanted grads had to sort their own schemes out, so they ended up with multiple separate schemes all running concurrently. I applied, I got interviewed along with six others and I was one of three to get picked for the jobs. I ended up in retrofits where they modify standard products to fit into power stations. For example a job I worked on site for, in South Africa, they were refitting a turbine set and generator in the only Nuclear plant in the country. The design was at least 20 years old. Its a core business for them but the engineering is very standard, run of the mill stuff. It just wasn't what I was after and I got quite bored of the whole thing, especially as I didn't get to do much engineering or even anything other than writing VBA code to save people doing things manually in excel. I did VBA coding in excel in practically every department I visited. They were either very reluctant to let me loose on something more substantial or they basically just didn't have the orders coming in to really utilise the work force. I'm going with the latter because they had me working on projects they shouldn't have been working on on account of they hadn't won the contract. The big bosses don't like to find out people are being used to do work that might not even materialise in real terms. (add to this long boring commute, costing me a fair chunk of my salary as well!)
So in short, wasn't for me. I just didn't click with it. It was also ruining my IMechE accreditation because every quarter I was submitting stuff done in excel and they said to me it could be likely I wont receive the year towards my CEng because the experiences didn't vary or cover enough of the competencies. I am partly to blame, I just didn't do my research on the company properly and ended up doing something I had no interest in. So I would say thoroughly research a company before you apply to make sure they do the kind of work you are likely to take to.
So I quit and now do a PhD back at Loughborough with one of my favourite lecturers (who is also the man who single handedly brings in the most research funding). Loving it so far, great people, great place, exciting work thats never been attempted by anyone anywhere. Loving it. I have also scrapped my IMechE eMPDS account completely, Instead I can retrospectively submit my 3 years PhD work when I am finished and have it count towards chartership. After all this PhD is run in conjunction with Caterpillar and is set up very much like an industrial project. Its exactly like having a job and the experiences are the same, if not more involved. I have to direct my own research, I have to write journal papers, present to higher ups at CAT and at conferences, training courses etc etc ...
At the end of it all you have to be happy. Being unhappy for the sake of getting on a grad scheme isn't worth it IMO.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Saturday 16th July 12:03
Sadly in the UK if you want to scale the career ladder within most big engineering companies you need be a project manager and not a techy. Companies typically only have one Chief Engineer per discipline but there fecking hundreds of managers.
I would suggest that you become familiar with the high hazard sector, and safety cases, because typically that is where the interesting and best paid work is.
I would suggest that you become familiar with the high hazard sector, and safety cases, because typically that is where the interesting and best paid work is.
98elise said:
Look up the definition of Engineer.
Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
I think you misunderstand the issue. A degree is not a pre-requisite to be an engineer, just as long as they are actually doing engineering. Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers, unless they have an engineering degree (engineer in title only, since there is no other link to engineering).
Edited by zollburgers on Saturday 16th July 14:00
zollburgers said:
98elise said:
Look up the definition of Engineer.
Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
I think you misunderstand the issue. A degree is not a pre-requisite to be an engineer, just as long as they are actually doing engineering. Terms like chartered etc are protected by law, but engineer is a broader term that some snobs seem to want to limit. My father is a chartered engineer without a degree. Many will tell you he shouldn't be called an engineer, yet he is recognised by the engineering council as a chartered engineer and works on world class projects as the design engineer (mechanical and electrical)
People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers.
GroundEffect said:
zollburgers said:
I think you misunderstand the issue. A degree is not a pre-requisite to be an engineer, just as long as they are actually doing engineering.
People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers.
Quite. I was not infering that people who don't have degrees but still do engineering aren't engineers. British Gas 'engineers' for instance...........People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers.
To the OP - I graduated in 2008 (BEng Mech Eng followed by an MSc) and started work for a small engineering consultancy, I couldn't recommend it enough. The pay may not be the greatest (I'd be earning a lot more as an accountant
), but I genuinely enjoy my job, have traveled the world and encountered a wide range of work. It seems the guys who stay in a mainly technical role can become very specialised, which can limit your progression. However, there is money to be made if you're an expert in a sought after field. Most people seem to go the project management route, which is what I've chosen to go down. My projects involve a good mix of technical, commercial and management work, so it's always varied. Can't complain so far!I'm not sure what the grad scheme situation is at the moment in large companies, are they taking people on again yet?
Edited by hyperblue on Saturday 16th July 14:39
Oil and Gas.
Exciting, plenty of jobs and the best way for Engineers to be truly utilised, recognised and scale the career ladder with excellent pay. You will also be able to travel and work abroad so don't expect to happily live in a nice area in a pretty city doing 9-5 desk job.
It isn't for everyone, especially those settled or with families, but for a young Engineer the jobs available are there for the picking.
I only started 2 weeks ago and have been put through my offshore survival (BOSIET) and am being put through subsea familiarisation as I'm coming from 3 yrs on the underground after graduation. I'll be heading offshore pretty soon and will be getting stuck in with client (operator) meetings, and being a Project Engineer for Facilities 2 Seabed whilst also being part of the design and development process of new solutions. It's a small company, but the exposure and responsibilities are there in abundance , something you won't necessarily get as say an Analysis Engineer at a larger contractor.
Get in with a big operator though (E.g. Shell, BP, Chevron, Apache) and you are sorted.
Exciting, plenty of jobs and the best way for Engineers to be truly utilised, recognised and scale the career ladder with excellent pay. You will also be able to travel and work abroad so don't expect to happily live in a nice area in a pretty city doing 9-5 desk job.
It isn't for everyone, especially those settled or with families, but for a young Engineer the jobs available are there for the picking.
I only started 2 weeks ago and have been put through my offshore survival (BOSIET) and am being put through subsea familiarisation as I'm coming from 3 yrs on the underground after graduation. I'll be heading offshore pretty soon and will be getting stuck in with client (operator) meetings, and being a Project Engineer for Facilities 2 Seabed whilst also being part of the design and development process of new solutions. It's a small company, but the exposure and responsibilities are there in abundance , something you won't necessarily get as say an Analysis Engineer at a larger contractor.
Get in with a big operator though (E.g. Shell, BP, Chevron, Apache) and you are sorted.
Edited by -Ad- on Saturday 16th July 18:26
hyperblue said:
GroundEffect said:
zollburgers said:
I think you misunderstand the issue. A degree is not a pre-requisite to be an engineer, just as long as they are actually doing engineering.
People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers.
Quite. I was not infering that people who don't have degrees but still do engineering aren't engineers. British Gas 'engineers' for instance...........People who fix washing machines are not doing engineering and so even if they have a degree should not be allowed to call themselves engineers.
To the OP - I graduated in 2008 (BEng Mech Eng followed by an MSc) and started work for a small engineering consultancy, I couldn't recommend it enough. The pay may not be the greatest (I'd be earning a lot more as an accountant
), but I genuinely enjoy my job, have traveled the world and encountered a wide range of work. It seems the guys who stay in a mainly technical role can become very specialised, which can limit your progression. However, there is money to be made if you're an expert in a sought after field. Most people seem to go the project management route, which is what I've chosen to go down. My projects involve a good mix of technical, commercial and management work, so it's always varied. Can't complain so far!I'm not sure what the grad scheme situation is at the moment in large companies, are they taking people on again yet?
Edited by hyperblue on Saturday 16th July 14:39
My two good friends took this route and they really enjoy it. Its thrown in at the deep end stuff with little hand holding. They're expected to work on the big stuff almost right away and be contributing. For small firms its just not affordable to have you doing side tasks while you get up to speed. It did put more stress and pressure on them at the start because their work was going to end up being manufactured and used out in the field, so it had to work and it had to work first time. But once they got a few jobs under their belts it soon becomes normal. Its a massive confidence booster. A good degree may suggest you know your s
t... but until you've actually designed, built, tested, redesigned, implemented... no one really knows for sure if you can do the job.As for large companies, yes they are recruiting I think. Take a look at Gradcracker.com .... this is a website hosting grad scheme and grad direct entry jobs for engineering companies. Its engineers only, so they have the space to really give good descriptions and information about certain jobs. Every big engineering firm worth their salt is advertising on this site so its worth while having a look through it.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Saturday 16th July 20:49
Otispunkmeyer said:
Its thrown in at the deep end stuff with little hand holding. They're expected to work on the big stuff almost right away and be contributing. For small firms its just not affordable to have you doing side tasks while you get up to speed.
+1 on this too, forgot to include that in my previous post. On my current project, someone walked out on us, so I've been project manager, site manager and commissioning engineer all in one. 'In at the deep end' sums it up. Completing the project on time was critical to bringing the power station back online on schedule, with very large penalties for delays (to compensate for loss of generation). Stressful, but the experience gained and sense of satisfaction make it worth it!You soon realise that your degree gives you the skills you need to get on, but you don't know s
t! 
Thanks for sharing all that with me guys, some really interesting stuff there. I'm glad to hear that you're all out there getting stuck in and forging some quite interesting careers. I come from a competely non-technical/engineering background and have limited contacts other than a few friends and aquaintances who are a few years ahead of me, so it's nice to hear about your careers. I know that money isn't everything but I've been looking at a salary survey for engineers in the US which made for some pleasant reading! They seem to be talking about starting salaries averaging $60k+ which must be much higher than here? Any reasons for this?
It would seem that starting off at a smaller company is the way do go for developing your skills, is this quite a common route amongst your peers? Did many of your uni pals go straight into an unrelated career path upon completion of their degree? Also, how much travelling do you guys actually do and do you enjoy it?
Thanks again
It would seem that starting off at a smaller company is the way do go for developing your skills, is this quite a common route amongst your peers? Did many of your uni pals go straight into an unrelated career path upon completion of their degree? Also, how much travelling do you guys actually do and do you enjoy it?
Thanks again
superhans88 said:
Thanks for sharing all that with me guys, some really interesting stuff there. I'm glad to hear that you're all out there getting stuck in and forging some quite interesting careers. I come from a competely non-technical/engineering background and have limited contacts other than a few friends and aquaintances who are a few years ahead of me, so it's nice to hear about your careers. I know that money isn't everything but I've been looking at a salary survey for engineers in the US which made for some pleasant reading! They seem to be talking about starting salaries averaging $60k+ which must be much higher than here? Any reasons for this?
It would seem that starting off at a smaller company is the way do go for developing your skills, is this quite a common route amongst your peers? Did many of your uni pals go straight into an unrelated career path upon completion of their degree? Also, how much travelling do you guys actually do and do you enjoy it?
Thanks again
Not always the case. I started off in consultancy, and whilst this is very much a sink or swim career option (my Masters was highly specialised so that helped and I have seen some spectacular career suicides by people starting this way), the range of projects you work on, and the quality of people you work with, help you progress very very fast in terms of breadth of knowledge and general skills - at perhaps at the cost of depth of knowledge though. It would seem that starting off at a smaller company is the way do go for developing your skills, is this quite a common route amongst your peers? Did many of your uni pals go straight into an unrelated career path upon completion of their degree? Also, how much travelling do you guys actually do and do you enjoy it?
Thanks again
In addition, many of the few remaining big engineering companies - RR for example - also rotate you through different departments in your first year so that you gain an invaluable experience and understanding of engineering in all its facets. Contrast this with some smaller engineering companies who often do the same stuff, in slightly different sectors, where the work gets old very quickly.
The moral, do some research on the company in question as it's not as simple as your statement. I've worked in most areas over the years and my advice would be to start at somewhere like R-R - rightly or wrongly having R-R (or one of the other big boys) on your CV still counts for a lot when you decide to move on - just don't get stuck in the 'Fur Line Rut'.
hyperblue said:
+1 on this too, forgot to include that in my previous post. On my current project, someone walked out on us, so I've been project manager, site manager and commissioning engineer all in one. 'In at the deep end' sums it up. Completing the project on time was critical to bringing the power station back online on schedule, with very large penalties for delays (to compensate for loss of generation). Stressful, but the experience gained and sense of satisfaction make it worth it!
You soon realise that your degree gives you the skills you need to get on, but you don't know st!
Ahh yes those penalties can be absolutely massive. Unreal how much money those places can make in an hour, let alone a day.You soon realise that your degree gives you the skills you need to get on, but you don't know s
t! Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff