When an agency advertises a job...
Discussion
Is it possible that the job doesn't exist?
I seem to find myself putting in a lot of applications, trying to contact people for feedback and failing dismally.
So for what reason would they avoid me, other than that of no job to offer?
I am very careful to apply for jobs that match my skill set closely - so it's not as though I'm even applying for jobs way outside of the scope of my skill set. Therefore not wasting people's time.
I realise agencies must be busy, but surely they are willing to follow up applications?
I held a senior post in my last role, and was continually innundated with potential recruits for jobs we did not have (or were even offering).
So are agencies simply harvesting CV's to send out to potential employers I ask?
I seem to find myself putting in a lot of applications, trying to contact people for feedback and failing dismally.
So for what reason would they avoid me, other than that of no job to offer?
I am very careful to apply for jobs that match my skill set closely - so it's not as though I'm even applying for jobs way outside of the scope of my skill set. Therefore not wasting people's time.
I realise agencies must be busy, but surely they are willing to follow up applications?
I held a senior post in my last role, and was continually innundated with potential recruits for jobs we did not have (or were even offering).
So are agencies simply harvesting CV's to send out to potential employers I ask?
I had another call from an agency this morning..
Caller begins with sales patter (why?) and then goes on to ask what I'm looking for and so on.
Then the phishing expedition begins -:
"where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
The excuse always given for asking about recent interviews is "so we don't submit your CV for the same job twice" (what does it matter?) and previously (when still employed) I was asked who my current line manager was etc. only to find that later in the day he (my current line manager) was sent a bunch of CVs for my role!!
That's grossly unprofessional.
Dealing with recruitment agencies is leaving me increasingly cynical.
I guess the rewards for recruiters are simply too great, which means they have their own interests at heart before mine or any potential future employer.
How unfortunate.
Caller begins with sales patter (why?) and then goes on to ask what I'm looking for and so on.
Then the phishing expedition begins -:
"where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
The excuse always given for asking about recent interviews is "so we don't submit your CV for the same job twice" (what does it matter?) and previously (when still employed) I was asked who my current line manager was etc. only to find that later in the day he (my current line manager) was sent a bunch of CVs for my role!!
That's grossly unprofessional.
Dealing with recruitment agencies is leaving me increasingly cynical.
I guess the rewards for recruiters are simply too great, which means they have their own interests at heart before mine or any potential future employer.
How unfortunate.
I'm also seeing what I believe is a form of pyramid or reselling going on.
I see a contract role advertised by an agent, with a very specific location, job description and outline. Agent is pitching at £18-22 per hour.
Next day I see two other agents also advertising the same role (or at least a very similar role in the same location, with the same duration, requirements etc). But these two are advertising the post at £15-£18 per hour.
Perhaps it's easy for the agents to search the job boards and re-advertise?
I see a contract role advertised by an agent, with a very specific location, job description and outline. Agent is pitching at £18-22 per hour.
Next day I see two other agents also advertising the same role (or at least a very similar role in the same location, with the same duration, requirements etc). But these two are advertising the post at £15-£18 per hour.
Perhaps it's easy for the agents to search the job boards and re-advertise?
Edited by GuinnessMK on Tuesday 21st June 10:04
TonyRPH said:
Well, I'm guessing that the market must be quite cut throat, and the thrust to make money forces professionalism and integrity out of the door.
Indeed. Plus it's always worth bearing in mind that employment agencies work for employers, that's who they make their money from, employees are the stock that they sell.
The Boaby said:
I thought it was common practice for them to solicit CVs for non-existent jobs in order to build a database of candidates?
More common than I thought apparently. 
ETA: Just had a brilliant idea to help pass my idle time at home. Create a script that in turn creates phantom profiles on job sites, and a few phantom CVs, but for really high end high paying jobs.... All with fictional identities of course...
Naturally, all of these profiles will feature premium rate telephone numbers...
can you tell I'm bored and frustrated yet?
Edited by TonyRPH on Tuesday 21st June 17:25
TonyRPH said:
Then the phishing expedition begins -:
"where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
I fell for the first one once! "where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
And I fell for the second one, but didn't even pick up on it!
TonyRPH said:
I had another call from an agency this morning..
Caller begins with sales patter (why?) and then goes on to ask what I'm looking for and so on.
Then the phishing expedition begins -:
"where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
Utterly cringeworthy. It's entirely valid to want such information, but not as an opening gambit whilst being obviously unconcerned with the candidate's interests. Personally, I wouldn't work with a candidate who wouldn't tell me about what else they were pursuing because a) I'm not going to waste many hours of my time putting someone through a process only for a secret other offer to arise at the last minute and jeopardise the placement and b) if they don't trust me, it's likely to be a very difficult relationship.Caller begins with sales patter (why?) and then goes on to ask what I'm looking for and so on.
Then the phishing expedition begins -:
"where have you been for interviews lately?" (and this topic was pushed quite hard in the face of me refusing to divulge any information)
"can we get a reference from your former employer? what is their phone number?"
(this too was pushed quite hard - references are available when required, and not before)
That being said, I wouldn't use someone simply to gather said information and then use it against them either. Sounds like this particular numpty has all the people skills of an autistic brick wall.
TonyRPH said:
The excuse always given for asking about recent interviews is "so we don't submit your CV for the same job twice" (what does it matter?) and previously (when still employed) I was asked who my current line manager was etc. only to find that later in the day he (my current line manager) was sent a bunch of CVs for my role!!
Don't worry, he won't be around too long. Any semi-competent recruiter would be far too busy to spam someone they've never spoken to with a bunch of ill-considered CVs for an opening that doesn't even exist.TonyRPH said:
That's grossly unprofessional.
Dealing with recruitment agencies is leaving me increasingly cynical.
The economy is picking up again. Hence lots of clueless idiots being put through the revolving doors that typify the majority of recruiting firms in the UK...Dealing with recruitment agencies is leaving me increasingly cynical.
I got a job in a recruitment agency when I was 21, and it was my first proper job at that. My training pretty much consisted of "get on the phone and make it happen", and we spent most of the day refreshing monster.com to pounce on the latest new additions before any of the other similar companies did, and sending large numbers of CVs to clients in the hopes they just might take a liking to one or two. Needless to say, I didn't last very long, and I fear this is not an unusual situation either.
Having said that, after getting out of it to do other forms of sales for a couple of years, I have worked in recruitment again for the last two (yay, started in the midst of a recession). Difference is, I work for a professional firm, received proper training and I spend probably 10 hours of my own time each week studying recruiting/sales/hiring and other issues relevant to the service I provide.
When it's done right, it's unquestionably the most valuable outside service a company can utilise (hunting down, attracting and then helping them to hire exceptional people who they wouldn't be able to by themselves). It's also one of the most complicated and intellectually challenging jobs you can do, incredibly rewarding and not only financially.
Unfortunately, truly good recruiters are extremely rare and it seems most people never really come into contact with one.
TonyRPH said:
I guess the rewards for recruiters are simply too great, which means they have their own interests at heart before mine or any potential future employer.
How unfortunate.
Reputation is everything in recruitment. A small minority of companies in a given industry are actually worth doing business with, and if you do a sHow unfortunate.
t job, you're unlikely to get a second chance at the account - unless you got in the door on the basis of your pathetically low fee and willingness to work alongside five other recruiters on the same job, which are the type of companies which generally allow such people to make any kind of a living.To be fair, companies who insist on paying the lowest prices offered and farm out their vacancies to every "recruiter" in the land have to take a large share of the blame for the current state of the UK recruitment industry. You reap what you sow.
As in any form of relationship-based selling, if you take care of your clients' interests, the money will follow naturally. More than you ever thought possible. Although it might cost you some money in the short term to do the right thing.
Recruiters out for the next quick buck will never make it in the long term.
You'd probably be well served to actively seek out and build a relationship with a reputable headhunter in your industry. They will be an invaluable ally to you over the years. The really good recruiters will rarely, if ever, find your CV off a mainstream job board.
The Boaby said:
I thought it was common practice for them to solicit CVs for non-existent jobs in order to build a database of candidates?
Ask them for the full Job Description then, if they don't have it then there is a good chance they are actually in a position to putyou forward to the client. I work in recruitment and have done for fifteen years, this practice does go one, but actually it is quite rare.
Given the levels of candidates applying for roles, most consultants don't have time or budget to advertise for jobs where they cannot make any money.
why build a database of candidates you haven't got jobs for ? There is no commercial value in that in the short term, and believe me in Agency recruitment right now it is ONLY about the short term.
In defence of CV "harvesting" as a recruitment consultant myself, specialising in one industry, at any one time I might have 3 or 4 clients who are always open to people with a certain skill set. If I get the right CV they can create a job. Sometimes when you speak to a candidate you know fairly quickly which client they would suit best.
The idea of having a generic job advert up is to keep you abreast of any new candidates who become available with those skillsets.
In other circumstances a client will call me up in panic saying they need to fill this role immediately. If I have a good candidate on hand it can put his mind at rest, and secure me the role rather than him calling the next agent who will have CVs on hand.
I know that this will happen sometime soon, so why not get an early start on knowing who is available for how much, and keep this information current?
The idea of having a generic job advert up is to keep you abreast of any new candidates who become available with those skillsets.
In other circumstances a client will call me up in panic saying they need to fill this role immediately. If I have a good candidate on hand it can put his mind at rest, and secure me the role rather than him calling the next agent who will have CVs on hand.
I know that this will happen sometime soon, so why not get an early start on knowing who is available for how much, and keep this information current?
AJS- said:
In defence of CV "harvesting" as a recruitment consultant myself, specialising in one industry, at any one time I might have 3 or 4 clients who are always open to people with a certain skill set. If I get the right CV they can create a job. Sometimes when you speak to a candidate you know fairly quickly which client they would suit best.
The idea of having a generic job advert up is to keep you abreast of any new candidates who become available with those skillsets.
In other circumstances a client will call me up in panic saying they need to fill this role immediately. If I have a good candidate on hand it can put his mind at rest, and secure me the role rather than him calling the next agent who will have CVs on hand.
I know that this will happen sometime soon, so why not get an early start on knowing who is available for how much, and keep this information current?
OK, fair enough.The idea of having a generic job advert up is to keep you abreast of any new candidates who become available with those skillsets.
In other circumstances a client will call me up in panic saying they need to fill this role immediately. If I have a good candidate on hand it can put his mind at rest, and secure me the role rather than him calling the next agent who will have CVs on hand.
I know that this will happen sometime soon, so why not get an early start on knowing who is available for how much, and keep this information current?
Would you not be better off networking and building relationships with top professionals in that field, with a view that you can place them with one of your clients as and when their circumstances make that conversation appropriate?
That way, you'll be able to place people who aren't considering any other opportunities or talking to any other recruiters, you'll be working with a far higher calibre of candidate, and you'll bring something of real value to your clients which completely separates you from all the other recruiters. And you'll be able to charge far higher fees for it too.
Plus, you get to spend 90% of your working day on the phone instead of staring at job boards and applications. It's much more fun.
None of the above excuses the phishing behaviour though.
I've had many calls, quite obviously made with the sole intent of -:
a) Finding out where I have been for interviews (presumably so the agency can canvas these companies)
b) Asking who my line manager is and asking for contact details of said manager.
c) Some have even had the cheek to ask the contact details of line managers from former employers listed on my CV.
This is grossly unprofessional, and as stated in my first post, the most recent caller got a little stroppy when I refused to divulge any of this information, ending the call with "well I'll email you a contact form to fill out should you decided you want to give the details".
Guess what?
I have yet to receive said email.
I'm sure there are many respectable agencies / people out there - but many of these 'dodgy' calls I've had have come from large well known agencies, not even tiny startups.
ETA: Forgot to mention one that called when I was still employed. I wasn't wise to these tricks at that time, and happily divulged all the info requested. About 2 - 3 days later, I had to access my line manager's mailbox to resolve an issue he was having, and there in his inbox was an email from the recruiter I had spoken to earlier in the week, with several CV's attached for my (not yet vacant) role. Very enterprising indeed.
I've had many calls, quite obviously made with the sole intent of -:
a) Finding out where I have been for interviews (presumably so the agency can canvas these companies)
b) Asking who my line manager is and asking for contact details of said manager.
c) Some have even had the cheek to ask the contact details of line managers from former employers listed on my CV.
This is grossly unprofessional, and as stated in my first post, the most recent caller got a little stroppy when I refused to divulge any of this information, ending the call with "well I'll email you a contact form to fill out should you decided you want to give the details".
Guess what?
I have yet to receive said email.
I'm sure there are many respectable agencies / people out there - but many of these 'dodgy' calls I've had have come from large well known agencies, not even tiny startups.
ETA: Forgot to mention one that called when I was still employed. I wasn't wise to these tricks at that time, and happily divulged all the info requested. About 2 - 3 days later, I had to access my line manager's mailbox to resolve an issue he was having, and there in his inbox was an email from the recruiter I had spoken to earlier in the week, with several CV's attached for my (not yet vacant) role. Very enterprising indeed.
Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 23 June 13:14
TonyRPH said:
None of the above excuses the phishing behaviour though.
I've had many calls, quite obviously made with the sole intent of -:
a) Finding out where I have been for interviews (presumably so the agency can canvas these companies)
b) Asking who my line manager is and asking for contact details of said manager.
c) Some have even had the cheek to ask the contact details of line managers from former employers listed on my CV.
This is grossly unprofessional, and as stated in my first post, the most recent caller got a little stroppy when I refused to divulge any of this information, ending the call with "well I'll email you a contact form to fill out should you decided you want to give the details".
Guess what?
I have yet to receive said email.
I'm sure there are many respectable agencies / people out there - but many of these 'dodgy' calls I've had have come from large well known agencies, not even tiny startups.
Large well-known recruitment companies usually provide the worst service.I've had many calls, quite obviously made with the sole intent of -:
a) Finding out where I have been for interviews (presumably so the agency can canvas these companies)
b) Asking who my line manager is and asking for contact details of said manager.
c) Some have even had the cheek to ask the contact details of line managers from former employers listed on my CV.
This is grossly unprofessional, and as stated in my first post, the most recent caller got a little stroppy when I refused to divulge any of this information, ending the call with "well I'll email you a contact form to fill out should you decided you want to give the details".
Guess what?
I have yet to receive said email.
I'm sure there are many respectable agencies / people out there - but many of these 'dodgy' calls I've had have come from large well known agencies, not even tiny startups.
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