Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
I don't think there's much in it for senior IT architect roles when I've been looking. Lower end perm roles are £60-100k and decent is £90-150k (more for specialisms), while contracts are in region of £450-700/day so pretty similar ballpark really. More places do seem to have realised they need to pay good rates to get good people, possibly due to influx of American companies that do pay top whack so the UK ones had to step it up or limit their choices. Or possibly due to IR35 changes limiting supply.
Some may only look at contracts, TBH the perm roles vary so much between employers that it's a bit short sighted. Some places treat perms like contractors anyway and vice versa, it's more about the organisation than whose payroll you are on. The assumption that a permanent role means constant performance assessments and office politics has not been valid for a long time.
Some may only look at contracts, TBH the perm roles vary so much between employers that it's a bit short sighted. Some places treat perms like contractors anyway and vice versa, it's more about the organisation than whose payroll you are on. The assumption that a permanent role means constant performance assessments and office politics has not been valid for a long time.
Deep Thought said:
Inside IR35?
Well - they state that the rate is for an outside IR35 role - but that isn't to say I'd disagree with anyone who'd assert that would be a challengeThis is near, but not in London, so I suspect we are competing to find people who have the option to head into the city - and a listed business which always means the rate is 'weighted accordingly' - I guess the agency cut is about 25% but that still sees them clearing up to £1,500 a day which I'd never previously come anywhere near (albeit it must be nearly 3 years since I was last on the hunt for one)
wombleh said:
I don't think there's much in it for senior IT architect roles when I've been looking. Lower end perm roles are £60-100k and decent is £90-150k (more for specialisms), while contracts are in region of £450-700/day so pretty similar ballpark really.
A 60k perm salary or £450 per day is utterly gash for any genuine 'senior IT architect'.Olivera said:
A 60k perm salary or £450 per day is utterly gash for any genuine 'senior IT architect'.
Not sure what senior means, Enterprise architect I guess who aren't really architects at all as they don't really design anything. I'm a common or garden IT architect which means I actually design systems and I wouldn't get out of bed for less than £600 outside or £800 inside and depending on what they want me to deliver, it could be quite a bit more.Also £150k for a permie architect role is very toppy. Yes they do come up but very rarely at that kind of salary, the average seems to be around the £100-£120k mark.
"Senior" should be someone with a decent level of experience that can lead a piece of work without support, but it often just means the person has added it themselves to their job title and that they're a bit of a t**t. So a bit like VP, it's pretty meaningless in reality. To be fair what an organisation expects an "architect" to do would vary massively too.
65/450 would not be a great rate for any architect/design role really, but there are adverts up now for roles at those rates. No idea if they'll actually get filled, some of the ads look very familiar from last time I looked a few months back !
65/450 would not be a great rate for any architect/design role really, but there are adverts up now for roles at those rates. No idea if they'll actually get filled, some of the ads look very familiar from last time I looked a few months back !
blueg33 said:
Are most of you contractors in IT? Reading the thread it feels that way. Most people I know who contract are IT or land finders.
In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
When you say IT do you include software in that?In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 2nd July 07:58
wombleh said:
"Senior" should be someone with a decent level of experience that can lead a piece of work without support, but it often just means the person has added it themselves to their job title and that they're a bit of a t**t. So a bit like VP, it's pretty meaningless in reality. To be fair what an organisation expects an "architect" to do would vary massively too.
65/450 would not be a great rate for any architect/design role really, but there are adverts up now for roles at those rates. No idea if they'll actually get filled, some of the ads look very familiar from last time I looked a few months back !
This and Architect now as well - when they know less than I do!!! FFS!!!!65/450 would not be a great rate for any architect/design role really, but there are adverts up now for roles at those rates. No idea if they'll actually get filled, some of the ads look very familiar from last time I looked a few months back !
eps said:
blueg33 said:
Are most of you contractors in IT? Reading the thread it feels that way. Most people I know who contract are IT or land finders.
In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
When you say IT do you include software in that?In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 2nd July 07:58
sleepezy said:
We're looking at an interim FD/CFO on a business that I am restructuring at the moment. Rates have shot up over the last couple of years and availability seems to have plummeted.
We've been quoted day rates (through an agent so including their not insignificant markup) of £1,750 to £2k - and the quality of the CV's we're getting through, particularly at the lower end of that spectrum, are definitely not setting the World on fire.
I am surprised the rate is so low. Interim CFO would be £2.5k upward per day in FS in my experience. We've been quoted day rates (through an agent so including their not insignificant markup) of £1,750 to £2k - and the quality of the CV's we're getting through, particularly at the lower end of that spectrum, are definitely not setting the World on fire.
blueg33 said:
Are most of you contractors in IT? Reading the thread it feels that way. Most people I know who contract are IT or land finders.
In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
Nope I am a PD/TD and not IT. I was a developer, systems analyst, IT PM, head of IT etc in the past but over the last 15 years or so have been mainly business change stuff. In the organisation I work for at present there appears to be 3 senior people who are contractors.
1. People and culture director (fancy HR)
2. Transformation Director (fancy pm)
3. Director (me) function non specific but I am a business strategist, development and funding expert. (Fancy house builder)
No IT contractors in the organisation though
Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 2nd July 07:58
So £1.75 to £2k a day is either low or high depending on your viewpoint 
Gazzab - I presume by FS you mean Financial Services - I'd expect that to command a premium - this is just tech and manufacturing
Blueg33 - I am not IT, but I suspect you're right on the majority here. My background is accountancy but for years now I've been restructuring businesses - generally outside IR35 given the discrete scope and normally relatively short timescales - sometimes inside if the scope and responsibilities demands it - and sometimes I've started outside and moved inside as things have developed !
Gazzab - I presume by FS you mean Financial Services - I'd expect that to command a premium - this is just tech and manufacturing
Blueg33 - I am not IT, but I suspect you're right on the majority here. My background is accountancy but for years now I've been restructuring businesses - generally outside IR35 given the discrete scope and normally relatively short timescales - sometimes inside if the scope and responsibilities demands it - and sometimes I've started outside and moved inside as things have developed !
Gazzab said:
sleepezy said:
We're looking at an interim FD/CFO on a business that I am restructuring at the moment. Rates have shot up over the last couple of years and availability seems to have plummeted.
We've been quoted day rates (through an agent so including their not insignificant markup) of £1,750 to £2k - and the quality of the CV's we're getting through, particularly at the lower end of that spectrum, are definitely not setting the World on fire.
I am surprised the rate is so low. Interim CFO would be £2.5k upward per day in FS in my experience. We've been quoted day rates (through an agent so including their not insignificant markup) of £1,750 to £2k - and the quality of the CV's we're getting through, particularly at the lower end of that spectrum, are definitely not setting the World on fire.
Gazzab said:
I am surprised the rate is so low. Interim CFO would be £2.5k upward per day in FS in my experience.
I haven't been looking for a while but I had a quick google. The link below seems to confirm what I thought (between £800 to £1500)https://baileymontagu.com/sectors/interim-solution...
I'm not saying you're wrong by the way - it's just that £2.5k per day seems really high.
That being said (and I'm going to semi contradict myself) I know that the chargeout rates for Big 4 partners is £4,000 so who knows how much a Contractor working for one of the Big 4 would charge for his services.
Blown2CV said:
It isn't. Lloyds pay up to £165k for senior manager EAs, plus bonus. If you want to be a lead then it's £200k sort of base.
I've been working in and around London all my working life, contracting for 15 years with the majority of that in the finance sector and that's not been my experience. I've worked on 2 Lloyd's affiliated Insurance projects and none of the permie architects were earning that, six figures sure but low six rather then mid to high. I've been offered permie architects roles at a few places and again they were a lot closer to £100k than £200k. Your figures always seem a bit high to me, just from what I've experienced.
Guvernator said:
Blown2CV said:
It isn't. Lloyds pay up to £165k for senior manager EAs, plus bonus. If you want to be a lead then it's £200k sort of base.
I've been working in and around London all my working life, contracting for 15 years with the majority of that in the finance sector and that's not been my experience. I've worked on 2 Lloyd's affiliated Insurance projects and none of the permie architects were earning that, six figures sure but low six rather then mid to high. I've been offered permie architects roles at a few places and again they were a lot closer to £100k than £200k. Your figures always seem a bit high to me, just from what I've experienced.
Surely the easiest way to prove what the salaries are is to post up links to job adverts?
Here's one for an Interim FD
That's probably the best one I've seen and it's paying £3,600 a week (just over £700 per day)
Also (and at the risk of stating the obvious) the longer the contract the smaller the day rate).
Here's one for an Interim FD
That's probably the best one I've seen and it's paying £3,600 a week (just over £700 per day)
Also (and at the risk of stating the obvious) the longer the contract the smaller the day rate).
Countdown said:
Blown2CV said:
most decent roles aren't advertised online
Unless it's a very specialist role and/or the likely pool of applicants is quite small then it seems a silly approach. 
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