Issues at work - pregnancy/miscarriage related

[crofty1984]

Just a thought - do you have legal cover on your house/car policy?

[Ambleton]

Car possibly, house no.

Today's update:
They want to see all letters/proof of antenatal appointments and have said they will allow her to leave one hour before and no sooner.

I don't think that's particularly unreasonable but it's just another thing that shows a bit of a power hungry regime.

[shtu]

Ambleton said:

they will allow her to leave one hour before and no sooner.

I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.

Proof of appointments, fair enough, but watch out for the odd one that might not have a cover letter.

Is an hour adequate to travel to appontments? If not, that's still not reasonable. It it is, use every second of it - no "oh, just before you go" nonsense*, out the door at T-60mins. If it takes 10 minutes to tidy up, clock out, etc, that's all work time too.

OTOH, it's normal in such policies that the employee should attempt to get appointments that minimise the time off, eg, first thing in the morning. Obviously that's not always possible, but do try, it might come in handy later.

Sounds like the plan is to battle through until maternity leave, take the maximum allowed then quit just before her return date? If not, it should be.


* I would bet that will be the next thing - drop an "urgent, must be today" task, roughly 5 minutes before she's due to leave. That requires the power to calmly say no, say why, and walk away.

[C5_Steve]

Ambleton said:

This is going to be a long and tumultuous post - apologies.

I need to seek some advice. I've contacted a local employment law specialist but I just can't afford it.

My wife works in the technical offices of a manufacturing business that create very high end products.

Last April we suffered from a late miscarriage at 20wks and 6days. Full natural birth, just too early. Waters broke.

She was then signed off sick for baby bereavement. I'm not sure of this is classed as a pregnancy related illness or not. I'm struggling to find any guidelines. It hit pretty hard. I don't know if anyone has seen a 21wk baby but they're full and complete (fingernails and toenails and everything), just small and pink - about the size of a ladies size 5 shoe)

My wife went back to work. She works for a chap who has zero social skills and absolutely no empathy. He's made a lot of comments over the past 12months that are totally unacceptable and has upset my wife quite a lot.

A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".

She was refused a companion in the hearing (which I think is illegal). The result of the hearing was that "nothing could be upheld". In the grievance she requested the outcome to be to work directly for another manager. This was also refused as "he has to be your manager". I think he was probably given a verbal warning about his comments but other than that i think it was swept under the carpet.

About 8-9 weeks ago we find out shes pregnant again. Given what happened last time she's being careful about heavy lifting, not doing too much.

She's been suffering from bad morning sickness. She's requested multiple times if she can work from home on the days she's feeling really rough. Theres no real reason she can't WFH, I'd say 75% of her job could be done remotely and it can be staggered so that the workload would suit. This has been refused on a basis of "no WFH policy". Fine.

There has been a few days where if she's been violently sick multiple times and has had migraines/headaches (another pregnancy related issue) she hasn't gone into work.

At her work the sickness/welfare policy rolls on a 12m basis.

The policy basically reads:

If you've been off sick on three separate occasions in the last 12months you get a verbal

If you've been off sick on four or more separate occasions you get a formal hearing.

Now she's received a letter from HR that there will be a formal welfare hearing because she's been off on 5 different occasions within the last 12m, totalling 19days.

The five occasions are:
June 2023 (bereavement of baby) 12days
August 2023 (migraine) - this one is fair enough IMO 1day
April/May 2024 - doctors orders to take rest for pregnancy related concerns/issues (4days)
June 2024 - migraine/headache (probably pregnancy related as they are linked, but not 100%) 1day
June 2024 - I had a trip to A&E and we didn't get home till 4am. So this is "care of a dependant". They've put this down as unauthorised absence. 1day

It feels to me like this is her boss trying to get back at her for complaining about his behaviour.

Shes convinced they're trying to get rid of her, and it does seem like it. It's hard in meetings too because it's such a sensitive and emotional topic she gets upset, goes quiet and cries, people talk over her and she can't get her point across as she's branded "emotional" - no st.

If you've made it this far, well done. Thanks for reading and I welcome any advice/words of wisdom.

Suggestions that include slashing tyres/cutting brake lines/burning down houses are welcomed but will not be actioned.

Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 12th June 16:34

Sorry I've quoted this to refer back to it. Firstly on the sickness, as I think has been covered above any sickness related to pregnancy or loss of a pregnancy MUST be recorded separately from other sickness and cannot be used for any formal action. I've managed people who have had horrendous pregnancies and have taken months off at a time, or repeated short periods. At the end of the day the baby is the most important thing and everything else is secondary, so based on the above they've already made quite a serious mistake.

Secondly, on the sickness, the last occasion you say they've recorded as "not authorised". I assume what's happened here is she's told them why they won't be in and they're saying they won't authorise it as "sickness". That's not the same as an unauthorised absence if she's followed the absence procedure and if they won't include it as sickness then it's not part of the overall sickness issue they're trying to have a hearing about. If she does have a hearing on this, ensure she takes someone in.

The advice further up to contact the HSE and ACAS are your starting points on the free side and I'd absolutely do that. These bodies carry weight.

Purely on the grievance perspective, it doesn't sound as though the company has followed the correct process although proving that will be difficult without any hard evidence. She should have been allowed accompaniment (the company can decline if there's substantial grounds but that should be recorded) and she absolutely should have been allowed to appeal without being talked out of it. If the outcome is disagreed with that's when you go to ACAS.

Cannot stress this enough, if not done so already please ensure she makes all communications about this with her boss or HR in writing (email I assume) and prints and keeps her own copies of everything. Record everything as much as possible, any meetings the management request she should ask for someone from HR to be there also AS WELL AS asking for someone to accompany her. As much as possible, have her write out and provide a statement in response to the allegations for the record.

From what you've said, there are significant issues here that need intervention. I can't offer more help from a legal perspective as IANAL but I do have extensive experience of managing people in large corporations, grievances (all levels) and complicated pregnancies. I've no kids but have learned more about pregnancy from people I've managed and their own issues than you would believe Any help with preparing a response for ACAS or for a hearing I'm happy to offer my view or help draft something.

[Ambleton]

loskie said:

I don't think this has been asked but has this been escalated WELL above your wife's manager's head to DIRECTOR level. They should be ashamed of their management and may be unaware of his behaviour.

I believe its gone as far as site manager.

It no excuse, but the difficulty with the kind of place she works is because it a highly skilled job there are lots of generational workers.

You know the kind of place where brothers, cousins, uncles all leave school at 14 straight into work so you end up with essentially an untouchable workforce because they'll only train family members and they all band together? It's not quite "that bad" but it certainly has a strong whiff of it.

[wrencho]

I know this is really easy for someone to say sitting behind a screen but if that was my significant other I'd have her out of there like a shot, or at least signed off long term.

Given the horrific ordeal you have been through, and the anxiety you both must be feeling, neither of you (nor the unborn little one) needs what appear to be complete ar$eholes making life even more difficult.

It boggles my mind that workplaces treat people like this...

[vaud]

Ambleton said:

A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".

Jesus christ.

[Ambleton]

vaud said:

Ambleton said:

A formal grievance about him was lodged earlier this year about his comments. Which include pregnancy "jokes", baby "jokes" and calling an unborn baby "a spunk bubble".

Jesus christ.

I couldn't even think about making something that awful up, let alone then saying it out loud at work.

He was watching some tiktok videos on break one day in February and proudly turned his phone around to show my wife saying "this guy's fit - he'd get you pregnant".

The temptation to go "scorched earth" on this scumbag is really hard to resist.

[extraT]

Citizens advice bureau?

Also, perhaps this is a bit “different” but have you asked ChatGPT if it can find information on the laws? Example: what are the laws surrounding pregnancy etc….? Dont ask it for advice, but for the laws. And who to contact (public body) You’d at least have some kind of start on where to look / form options etc… but it won’t recommend lawyers. I guess it would at least help while you’re searching for a lawyer?

Good luck.

[vaud]

Ambleton said:

I couldn't even think about making something that awful up, let alone then saying it out loud at work.

He was watching some tiktok videos on break one day in February and proudly turned his phone around to show my wife saying "this guy's fit - he'd get you pregnant".

The temptation to go "scorched earth" on this scumbag is really hard to resist.

I agree. I'm no alpha male and always seek diplomatic routes, etc. My wife was recently sexually assaulted at a work event and it took a lot of restraint to keep focused on helping my wife with the police reports, work reports etc rather than a more direct action on my part (the accused is a frigging solicitor of all things)

Rightly or wrongly your wife probably needs to exit. A

side from lawyers (you might be able to find one who will give an hours consultation for lower cost - worth ringing some of the larger local firms to see if they can offer an hour pro-bono (free))

Another nuclear option would be to write to the CEO and board with an open letter stating the facts but that comes with risk.

Another would be to go down the stress route and talk to the GP and share the incidents. I know I would be stressed.

But I would start with ACAS.

[vaud]

extraT said:

but have you asked ChatGPT

Chat GPT is not a tool for legal advice and is not intelligent. Use it for summarisation, creating fluffy dog pics but not for anything as nuanced as law, where you even have variations in the UK for some laws.

Sorry to be direct but this is a bad idea.

[extraT]

Hence me saying, “Ask it for the law and who to contact (public body)”…. And “don’t ask it for an opinion”.

Let’s try not to derail this thread with unnecessary comments.

[Ambleton]

vaud said:

I'm no alpha male and always seek diplomatic routes, etc. My wife was recently sexually assaulted at a work event and it took a lot of restraint to keep focused on helping my wife with the police reports, work reports etc rather than a more direct action on my part (the accused is a frigging solicitor of all things)

Oh man. Sorry to hear that. I hope things are getting sorted.

There seems to be no shortage of tts in this world. We could do with a good clearout IMO but going round ending people is frowned upon

[loskie]

it was a perfectly valid comment


https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/maternity-a...

[Jordie Barretts sock]

Wow!

I'd being going for the jugular.

[vaud]

Ambleton said:

Oh man. Sorry to hear that. I hope things are getting sorted.

There seems to be no shortage of tts in this world. We could do with a good clearout IMO but going round ending people is frowned upon

Thanks. Slowly getting there...

There are too many dinosaurs around, even younger ones who have been badly brought up and then see themselves as the bee's knees in an unchecked work environment, often also lead by dinosaurs.

[vaud]

extraT said:

Hence me saying, “Ask it for the law and who to contact (public body)”…. And “don’t ask it for an opinion”.

Let’s try not to derail this thread with unnecessary comments.

Apologies, I reacted badly. Per my other post it is a sensitive topic and I apologise.

[Ambleton]

No need for anyone to apologise or get fired up - it's a highly emotionally charged topic.

There's been times where I've been seething, flummoxed and frankly amazed at the stupidity of her boss. Tbh I've laughed out loud in disbelief at some of the things he's done/said.

Actually he did an absolute shocker of a "prank" on another ex-colleague last week.

[sfella]

Absolutely no constructive help but I'd have flattened the boss and used fear of taking legal action against company for harassment to stop him going telling tales to boys in blue. Job jobbed.


To OP I'm a father myself and dread to think how awful things must have been for you both , I hope you and the Mrs have a much easier time this time around and welcome baby safely into the world

[Ambleton]

C5_Steve said:

Loads of really helpful stuff.

Any help with preparing a response for ACAS or for a hearing I'm happy to offer my view or help draft something.

Thankyou.

My first job is to put together a timeline of everything with all documents, emails, letters, policies, employee handbook etc.

Once I've got it all together and made some initial contact I might be in touch.