RE: 'Ring Limits
Wednesday 14th January 2004
'Ring Limits
The beginning of the end or a sensible safety measure?
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The anomoly that is the infamous Nurburgring Nordshleife is coming under increasing scrutiny. For those that haven't been there it may come as a surprise to learn that the thirteen mile circuit is operated as a one way public toll road. Also, unlike on a track day, when operating as a public day there aren't marshalls on every corner - in fact you'll be lucky to see a marshall at all unless they're clearing up a crash.
GT3 Porsches may hurtle around there at 150mph but you'll also see coaches and families in their 406 Estates pootling about for a gander. No flags to warn you of slow vehicles and you never know what might be lurking around the next corner.
Crashes are frequent, and injuries and deaths - particularly to bikers - are numerous each year. It remains one of the most exciting and challenging roads in the world and until recently flew in the face of nanny state politics - if you wanted to take the risk, then it's your risk.
Now, measures are gradually being introduced to reduce the number of crashes. It's been reported that this year will see the speed limit being enforced at Breidscheid (where there's another entry point to the circuit). Until now, whilst the road has got speed limits, it wasn't until you crashed that you'd get any attention from the law.
No doubt the safety debate will continue. If people are made aware of the risks, do they have the right to put themselves at risk or do bureaucrats have the duty to reduce the risk of death and injury at any cost?
Breidscheid pics from Ben Pike
Discussion
During the tourists sessions any on "toll road" crashes are included in the regional crash statistics. This makes the region one of, if not, the worst in germany. The local council are trying to reduce the number of crashes, KSIs etc in line with the same EEC directives that gave the english government the excuse to come up with scamera partnerships. It should be noted the track is owned by the local councils. In my limited experience at the Ring most accidents at Breidsheid are caused by bikes/cars "wiping out" when entering the series of left hand bends or by slower vehicles on the right hand side cutting up faster vehicles on the approach. Nothing to do with the exit/entrance later in the "complex".
The video ban was brought in to stop people pushing themselves to make a fast lap recording. It followed a recording of someone driving through the scene of a crash where someone had died. This video was put on the net by some insensitive prat which then found it's way onto a german TV news programme. The video ban was in force in may 03 when SFV (Pher) and myself drove through Breidshied following a multiple motorcycle crash. At the time all the motorcyclists were standing, another had run up the track to forewarn oncoming drivers/riders so there was no reason to stop. The person who caused the crash got on his bike and legged it. If like on previous trips I'd had my camcorder running this would have picked up the numberplate of the offending bike helping the insurance claims of those other riders. It would also have given the police video evidence of the scene following the incident. Later in the evening a rider did a tour of just about every guest house/hotel around Nurburg, found the accident causing rider repairing his bike and called the police. I believe he was charged with leaving the scene of an accident.
DAZ
Oh just to add my 2pennyworth. If you can't set your own safe speed you shouldn't be on the road let alone the Nurburgring.
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 14th January 12:09
The video ban was brought in to stop people pushing themselves to make a fast lap recording. It followed a recording of someone driving through the scene of a crash where someone had died. This video was put on the net by some insensitive prat which then found it's way onto a german TV news programme. The video ban was in force in may 03 when SFV (Pher) and myself drove through Breidshied following a multiple motorcycle crash. At the time all the motorcyclists were standing, another had run up the track to forewarn oncoming drivers/riders so there was no reason to stop. The person who caused the crash got on his bike and legged it. If like on previous trips I'd had my camcorder running this would have picked up the numberplate of the offending bike helping the insurance claims of those other riders. It would also have given the police video evidence of the scene following the incident. Later in the evening a rider did a tour of just about every guest house/hotel around Nurburg, found the accident causing rider repairing his bike and called the police. I believe he was charged with leaving the scene of an accident.
DAZ
Oh just to add my 2pennyworth. If you can't set your own safe speed you shouldn't be on the road let alone the Nurburgring.
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 14th January 12:09
deltaf said:
How are they going to deal with someone who goes "balls out" round it after having paid for the privelige, and who then just leaves????
More euro interference form the lentilists and sandalistas.
Me? I just ignore them and go as fast as I want, screw em all.
They would have the police waiting at the exit for offenders. Or they may use something similar to the UK NIP route? My bet is on the police at the two exits though.
DAZ
The video ban is stupid:
It prevents people timing themselves, and then clock watching.
It allows people to learn where they are going wrong.
It is a great way of relaxing at the end of the night and watching peoples videos over a pint(litre!) or 2
And lastly it is a great means of solving disputes when it comes to accidents.
Twice now I have seen the video footage used to work out what went wrong, and there can be no denying what happened.
As for the speed limits why? Are we going to see gatso's around the ring?
I think the time for trackdays there is going to come more popular
As I think none of the above apply
It prevents people timing themselves, and then clock watching.
It allows people to learn where they are going wrong.
It is a great way of relaxing at the end of the night and watching peoples videos over a pint(litre!) or 2
And lastly it is a great means of solving disputes when it comes to accidents.
Twice now I have seen the video footage used to work out what went wrong, and there can be no denying what happened.
As for the speed limits why? Are we going to see gatso's around the ring?
I think the time for trackdays there is going to come more popular
As I think none of the above apply
What would be the problem with trackdys at the ring ?
that way you would not have to worry about potentially dangerous tour buses or 3 motorcycles on either side trying to overtake you into a bend.
i would happily pay a bit more money for the safety of a track day, i go there for the track not the potential near death experience.
that way you would not have to worry about potentially dangerous tour buses or 3 motorcycles on either side trying to overtake you into a bend.
i would happily pay a bit more money for the safety of a track day, i go there for the track not the potential near death experience.
I tried organising a day there, and it is relatively cheap.
The only problem was they are booked solid. And also they dont want to deal with anyone new.
So that leaves the companies that already run there, and in my eyes their profit margins are way too high!
There is making a bit of money and there is making a bit of money!!!!
The only problem was they are booked solid. And also they dont want to deal with anyone new.
So that leaves the companies that already run there, and in my eyes their profit margins are way too high!
There is making a bit of money and there is making a bit of money!!!!
Trackdays are offered by many organisers if that is what you wish to do.
Personally I prefer the tourist sessions as you have the total flexibility of driving when you wish, take breaks when you wish, don't go on track or pay if it is raining. You can also plan a trip to the Ring with friends whose cars/bikes may have different levels of performance etc.
Finally the big issue personally for me is helmets are not compulsory during the tourist sessions. Not being able to fit in my car wearing a helmet precludes me from doing all trackdays. The Ring is the last track on earth that I can drive my car.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 14th January 13:13
Personally I prefer the tourist sessions as you have the total flexibility of driving when you wish, take breaks when you wish, don't go on track or pay if it is raining. You can also plan a trip to the Ring with friends whose cars/bikes may have different levels of performance etc.
Finally the big issue personally for me is helmets are not compulsory during the tourist sessions. Not being able to fit in my car wearing a helmet precludes me from doing all trackdays. The Ring is the last track on earth that I can drive my car.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 14th January 13:13
Time for either a new car or a smaller head!
I do agree that the whole go out and kick tyres for the weekend and talk crap is fun, and yes you can balance the time with no pressure, but I tend to buy a season ticket so i have to pay regardless of rain or shine.
Also there are fewer worries about saftey as there are marshalls and paramedics on hand.
Coaches cant turn up and just go out!
Mr and Mrs 10mph with a picnic hamper, cant go for a sunday lap.
Mad ones on bikes that refuse to believe a car can be faster than them.
These are major pluses in my book.
If these guys want safety, one thought of mine is there is no insentive to own up for an oil/coolant leak. If you have a crash, and tell them you dropped one of the above they will charge you, so most will run off. This just leads to accidents, and death. Joerund fell victim to this, and has been much missed.
If they upped the price of the ticket, and then allowed people to be honest for free, that may prevent a vast number of accidents.
I do agree that the whole go out and kick tyres for the weekend and talk crap is fun, and yes you can balance the time with no pressure, but I tend to buy a season ticket so i have to pay regardless of rain or shine.
Also there are fewer worries about saftey as there are marshalls and paramedics on hand.
Coaches cant turn up and just go out!
Mr and Mrs 10mph with a picnic hamper, cant go for a sunday lap.
Mad ones on bikes that refuse to believe a car can be faster than them.
These are major pluses in my book.
If these guys want safety, one thought of mine is there is no insentive to own up for an oil/coolant leak. If you have a crash, and tell them you dropped one of the above they will charge you, so most will run off. This just leads to accidents, and death. Joerund fell victim to this, and has been much missed.
If they upped the price of the ticket, and then allowed people to be honest for free, that may prevent a vast number of accidents.
castex said:
i go there for the track not the potential near death experience.
I'd say they're one and the same.
I can't wait to go, and hope I won't have to watch my speedo instead of concentrating on my driving and other people.
Love the bravado,,, me being such a woos do't really like to see bikers strewn across the track or someones pride & joy smacked up due to a potentially avoidable incident.
Personally i find it a little inconvenient when it is not raining and i want to go out to play and there is the 1/2 hour hold up while the air ambulance comes in to pick cart someone off again..
atom290 said:
Time for either a new car or a smaller head!
New car is out of the question. The car I have is one of the best sportscars you can get for headroom. I'm just an odd shape
the problem is down to having a long torso, the well developed waistline doesn't come into it, though it did stop me getting bucket seats. Your comments about oil/fluids on track and people fleeing to avoid closure/clean up costs is very valid. I never met Joerund but usually staying at Sliders guesthouse I know many who hold him in the highest regard. May he RIP, the same goes to the two PHers in the ferrari last year who I had met.
DAZ
When the Nordschleife gets a speed limit, what should one then tell a young lad that wants to check out the capabilities of his hothatch?
"Don't do it on public roads and put road users at risk; go to the Nürburgring, it's legal there, and all motorists are aware of the risks"?
Certainly not.
"Don't do it on public roads and put road users at risk; go to the Nürburgring, it's legal there, and all motorists are aware of the risks"?
Certainly not.
Personally - I'm amazed that it has got away
with the death toll for so long.
There are biker deaths on a weekly basis .. I believe most people underestimate the circuit and crash.. sometimes very badly.
Perhaps - they could offer more 'controlled' rides / drive - laps.
With experienced leaders.
From what I've read - it's been a nice little earner.
Scratch a crash barrier - and it £240 for a new section please.
with the death toll for so long.
There are biker deaths on a weekly basis .. I believe most people underestimate the circuit and crash.. sometimes very badly.
Perhaps - they could offer more 'controlled' rides / drive - laps.
With experienced leaders.
From what I've read - it's been a nice little earner.
Scratch a crash barrier - and it £240 for a new section please.
Maybe a little wait and see could possibly be in order here - we are not in the UK after all.
I agree that the ban on video recorders is unlikely to have the desired effect on the death toll, together with having many negative consequences as described above. However, the Germans do appear to have a more measured approach to speed than our president and his lap dogs.
Also, the local councils will no doubt be aware of the profitibility of the tourist days. Are they really going to dull the spectacle sufficiently to dint that profit margin?
I agree that the ban on video recorders is unlikely to have the desired effect on the death toll, together with having many negative consequences as described above. However, the Germans do appear to have a more measured approach to speed than our president and his lap dogs.
Also, the local councils will no doubt be aware of the profitibility of the tourist days. Are they really going to dull the spectacle sufficiently to dint that profit margin?
What is next in my home country???
Ralf and Michael fined for speeding in Hockenheim???
Damn, it´s a track. As you can go there in purpose of going fast, treat it like a piece of our famous Autobahn, where it is still legal, when not so famous as "green hell". Causing accidents while speeding is no problem of the ring, but of people who are overrating themselves. Happens anywhere...
Ralf and Michael fined for speeding in Hockenheim???
Damn, it´s a track. As you can go there in purpose of going fast, treat it like a piece of our famous Autobahn, where it is still legal, when not so famous as "green hell". Causing accidents while speeding is no problem of the ring, but of people who are overrating themselves. Happens anywhere...
The majority of crashes, are caused by 2 things: too little knowledge and too much.
The place attracts many walks of life, some of which seem to think they can ham their way around living on the seat of their pants as they would a short circuit. The attitude of I'm in front so overtake me if you can is so prevelant, if at all they have looked in their mirrors to notice the person behind!!
You cant do it, this isnt Cadwell Park, at a couple of miles, its over 13 miles. Granted its no TT, but then there are often deaths there when mad sunday occurs.
With the latter group, they will try and push the vehicle that little bit more, things happen sometimes your own fault (and yes I am guilty of not staying on the black stuff there) and sometimes not. But with the lack of run off, there is little room for error.
A solution needs to be found that doesnt spoil the place for what it is. A bloody scarey place that requires a certain sense of skill that no other track demands.
But as for pointing the main finger of blame....the magazines for promoting the place. 10 years ago it was a nice little place that no-one had heard of. No its like a meat farm, mostly for engish bikers.
The place attracts many walks of life, some of which seem to think they can ham their way around living on the seat of their pants as they would a short circuit. The attitude of I'm in front so overtake me if you can is so prevelant, if at all they have looked in their mirrors to notice the person behind!!
You cant do it, this isnt Cadwell Park, at a couple of miles, its over 13 miles. Granted its no TT, but then there are often deaths there when mad sunday occurs.
With the latter group, they will try and push the vehicle that little bit more, things happen sometimes your own fault (and yes I am guilty of not staying on the black stuff there) and sometimes not. But with the lack of run off, there is little room for error.
A solution needs to be found that doesnt spoil the place for what it is. A bloody scarey place that requires a certain sense of skill that no other track demands.
But as for pointing the main finger of blame....the magazines for promoting the place. 10 years ago it was a nice little place that no-one had heard of. No its like a meat farm, mostly for engish bikers.
Just to clarify, we're only talking about one speed limit on one short section. (The original article suggests we might find them scattered throughout the Ring.)
There have always been two theoretical speed limits on the Ring, one each on the approach to the Breidscheid and main exits. These have never been enforced. What is new this year is that the Breidscheid speed limit will be treated seriously.
I don't believe this has anything to do with the exit, but more to do with the fact that there have been too many deaths and serious injuries resulting from bikers hitting the concrete wall at Breidscheid. With pressure to reduce the death-rate, that's probably the single most effective thing Nurburgring GmbH could take.
I agree with the comments on the video ban. I think it was an over-reaction to one idiot, but I can also see it from N.GmbH's viewpoint. It is impossible to determine who might run to TV stations with crash footage, and Ring deaths on TV is one of the most certain routes to the end of tourist sessions.
It was for some time unknown whether or not the Touristfahren would even exist this year, so I'm just grateful that I'll still be able to drive there this year. Sure, the Breidscheid limit will be a nuisance, but it's small beer compared to what could have happened.
Ben
[url]www.nurburgring.org.uk[/url]
>> Edited by Ben Lovejoy on Wednesday 14th January 21:11
There have always been two theoretical speed limits on the Ring, one each on the approach to the Breidscheid and main exits. These have never been enforced. What is new this year is that the Breidscheid speed limit will be treated seriously.
I don't believe this has anything to do with the exit, but more to do with the fact that there have been too many deaths and serious injuries resulting from bikers hitting the concrete wall at Breidscheid. With pressure to reduce the death-rate, that's probably the single most effective thing Nurburgring GmbH could take.
I agree with the comments on the video ban. I think it was an over-reaction to one idiot, but I can also see it from N.GmbH's viewpoint. It is impossible to determine who might run to TV stations with crash footage, and Ring deaths on TV is one of the most certain routes to the end of tourist sessions.
It was for some time unknown whether or not the Touristfahren would even exist this year, so I'm just grateful that I'll still be able to drive there this year. Sure, the Breidscheid limit will be a nuisance, but it's small beer compared to what could have happened.
Ben
[url]www.nurburgring.org.uk[/url]
>> Edited by Ben Lovejoy on Wednesday 14th January 21:11
The problem is Ben, that if they implement a speed limit at Breidscheid, then what’s to say that Schwedenkreuz doesn’t follow suit? And I am sure between us we can think of many other corners that have claimed the lives of drivers/riders.
As for the video ban: I understand the effect on the tourism if, god forbid, crash evidence was released to the media. But this might have a good effect? Too many times you come round a corner to find someone where they shouldn’t be doing a speed that is a fraction of what your doing. A price hike, may also deter the "quick honey lets go round this quirky little place, the kids will love it" drivers
As for the video ban: I understand the effect on the tourism if, god forbid, crash evidence was released to the media. But this might have a good effect? Too many times you come round a corner to find someone where they shouldn’t be doing a speed that is a fraction of what your doing. A price hike, may also deter the "quick honey lets go round this quirky little place, the kids will love it" drivers
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