Do you need trackday insurance?
Discussion
Having never tracked my car, i'm just wondering weather you need it. Is it just for people who want fully comp incase they crash there £50 porsche's and Ultimas or is it required incase of injure to yourself or another party while flying round the track? Do the Track Day organisers arange personal injury insurance, and is this enough?
Just interested as I would like to change the 206 for something more fun (thus more insurance, more running costs, etc.). Would love to do a track day or 2 a year, however if my car is only worth £5-6000 I would hope to get away with out track cover. The increase in premium to include trackday cover probably wont make trackdays afordable (Girlfriend wants a house, so godda save some money).
Any advice welcome
Just interested as I would like to change the 206 for something more fun (thus more insurance, more running costs, etc.). Would love to do a track day or 2 a year, however if my car is only worth £5-6000 I would hope to get away with out track cover. The increase in premium to include trackday cover probably wont make trackdays afordable (Girlfriend wants a house, so godda save some money).
Any advice welcome
Competition Car Insurance will cover 5-6k for about 60 quid, which is sod all compared to trackday cost and wear and tear/consumables.
The general principle is that you bear your own loss on a track day, ie a lambo driver has more to lose than a lada owner. If the lada crashes into the lambo writing them both off, then it is tough luck for the lambo driver. If he can prove negligence or recklessness on the part of the lada owner, then maybe he would have a civil claim against him and sue him - but whether that would be successful is another matter. People generally know that trackwork is risky. This could be why more expensive cars tend to be better insured - because they can be crashed into as well as crashing out themselves.
I am not sure physical injuries are totally covered. The Competition Car Insurance covers the 'rolling chassis' I believe, so not even sure if they cover whiplash etc.
The trackday organiser may have some kind of insurance that covers this, but generally disclaimers warn you of the dangers so they would have to be very reckless or negligent for the insurer to pay out. My guess is to keep your private health care payments and personal accident/unemployment cover up to date.
The general principle is that you bear your own loss on a track day, ie a lambo driver has more to lose than a lada owner. If the lada crashes into the lambo writing them both off, then it is tough luck for the lambo driver. If he can prove negligence or recklessness on the part of the lada owner, then maybe he would have a civil claim against him and sue him - but whether that would be successful is another matter. People generally know that trackwork is risky. This could be why more expensive cars tend to be better insured - because they can be crashed into as well as crashing out themselves.
I am not sure physical injuries are totally covered. The Competition Car Insurance covers the 'rolling chassis' I believe, so not even sure if they cover whiplash etc.
The trackday organiser may have some kind of insurance that covers this, but generally disclaimers warn you of the dangers so they would have to be very reckless or negligent for the insurer to pay out. My guess is to keep your private health care payments and personal accident/unemployment cover up to date.
Apparently a successful claim was made against a track day company in the last few years because they hadn't warned a punter that the wet grass was more slippery than the track. Total hearsay but it was from a track day organiser. That's one of the reasons why liability insurance for the track day companies is become more of an issue.
domster said:I would point out that the instances of car-to-car contact at trackdays are negligable, if not non-existant. The usual track day rules regarding overtaking ensure this.
If the lada crashes into the lambo writing them both off, then it is tough luck for the lambo driver.
Unless of course the car in front decides to try and avoid suicidal pheasants, eh Domster!
Always bear in mind the Excess on the policy.. it can be pretty high.. £750-£1000 in some cases.
Another thing is that of course it only covers "crash damage" so if you're engine seizes solid, and you run into the tyres, you are not getting the engine re-build on the insurance claim.
Personally I wouldn't be without it.
Cheers
Matt.
Another thing is that of course it only covers "crash damage" so if you're engine seizes solid, and you run into the tyres, you are not getting the engine re-build on the insurance claim.
Personally I wouldn't be without it.
Cheers
Matt.
jeremyc said:
If the lada crashes into the lambo writing them both off, then it is tough luck for the lambo driver.
I would point out that the instances of car-to-car contact at trackdays are negligable, if not non-existant. The usual track day rules regarding overtaking ensure this.
Unless of course the car in front decides to try and avoid suicidal pheasants, eh Domster!
You certainly do need pheasant cover at Hethel as well... true. One windscreen needed replacing on an Impreza because of bird damage.
That was a close-ish call on the back straight, eh, Jez, but those superlative driving talents of yours (sudden lane change in a Superlight at 120!) kept it all together
Dom, so the Competition cover, would that be one off cover for each track day that only covers the car? £60 sounds very acceptable
The scenario I have going around my head is this. Nice car near me on track, tire bursts or I loose it and bump in to nice car, nice car mangled and nice car driver is injured. Now will track insurance will pay for my car minus the excess? What about his car? And what about his car if I didn’t have insurance? Will having insurance help me not getting sued for loss of work, medical costs or anything like that or are these things covered by the organisers insurance?
Thanks
>> Edited by mr_yogi on Tuesday 6th January 12:35
The scenario I have going around my head is this. Nice car near me on track, tire bursts or I loose it and bump in to nice car, nice car mangled and nice car driver is injured. Now will track insurance will pay for my car minus the excess? What about his car? And what about his car if I didn’t have insurance? Will having insurance help me not getting sued for loss of work, medical costs or anything like that or are these things covered by the organisers insurance?
Thanks
>> Edited by mr_yogi on Tuesday 6th January 12:35
mr_yogi said:
, tire bursts or I loose it and bump in to nice car, nice car mangled and nice car driver is injured. Now will track insurance will pay for my car minus the excess? What about his car? And what about his car if I didn’t have insurance? Will having insurance help me not getting sued for loss of work, medical costs or anything like that or are these things covered by the organisers insurance?
All not your problem... everyone signs a waiver or something before going out on track.. "I accept motorsport is inherantly dangerous bla bla bla.... own risk etc etc"
Mr Lambo will be pissed off, but unless he wants to mount a private legal suit against you on his own (which would be laughable) its not your problem.
Cheers
Matt.
mr_yogi said:
Dom, so the Competition cover, would that be one off cover for each track day that only covers the car? £60 sounds very acceptable
The scenario I have going around my head is this. Nice car near me on track, tire bursts or I loose it and bump in to nice car, nice car mangled and nice car driver is injured. Now will track insurance will pay for my car minus the excess? What about his car? And what about his car if I didn’t have insurance? Will having insurance help me not getting sued for loss of work, medical costs or anything like that or are these things covered by the organisers insurance?
Thanks
>> Edited by mr_yogi on Tuesday 6th January 12:35
Yes, a one off trackday costs 60 GBP to cover for about 5-6k of cover through Competition Car Ins. I have used them a couple of times and recommend them. They also let you add extra drivers for a nominal amount, meaning that a shared day becomes a real bargain and you don't need to worry so much about wrecking a mate's car.
Two of my mates have crashed at trackdays this year, and I've seen many many more incidents. Injuries are thankfully very rare tho', so I think you may be slightly overcautious re personal injury. With a sensible car (roll bar a must on cabrios IMO) sensible safety wear inc helmet and maybe racesuit, plus all the marshalls and ambulances around, you SHOULD be OK. (A chap walked away from an overturned Westfield at Hethel, and that looked v nasty - helmet met tarmac etc.).
Get BUPA cover for 80 GBP a month, 30 GBP a month on illness/accident mortgage cover and then 60 GBP per trackday? That should see you covered for everything bar Bin Laden's loonies blowing up an airliner over Donington Park onto redgate just as you are turning in...
mr_yogi said:
The scenario I have going around my head is this. Nice car near me on track, tire bursts or I loose it and bump in to nice car, nice car mangled and nice car driver is injured.
Another thing you should consider when weighing all this up is that trackdays are not competetive... you can't drive up someone's @rse and bully them out of the way, and overtaking is strictly by consent. the odds of you having another car near you when "losing it" are very slight as unless they are overtaking you and you have waved them by already they will be keeping their distance.
Its not like the Saloon car stuff you see on Eurosport.
Cheers,
Matt.
Bookatrack are in my good backs for additional drivers at NO COST.
Easytrack lost marks for charging me a fiver to PASSENGER!
Despite what Matt says, I have seen some aggressive driving at trackdays. There is often one nutter or bully per day on average, to go along with two or three inconsiderate drivers and the majority of polite and friendly people
. But you quickly work out who the nobbers are and avoid them.
I haven't seen much contact at trackdays, but I have seen SOME. It does happen, but as Jez and Matt imply, it is pretty rare compared to self-binning moves.
If you are worried and the day is open pit lane, don't go out for half an hour and just take a look to see who the nutters are and let everyone calm down.
Many of the incidents that I have seen are near the end of the day tho', as people try and squeeze in hyper confident 'last laps of the day' when the car or themselves may be beyond their best abilities. For that reason, always stop when you've had enough and don't force yourself to get your money's worth. A few passenger rides (not with the nutters!) at the end of the day or a walk around the paddock can be great fun.
Easytrack lost marks for charging me a fiver to PASSENGER!
Despite what Matt says, I have seen some aggressive driving at trackdays. There is often one nutter or bully per day on average, to go along with two or three inconsiderate drivers and the majority of polite and friendly people
. But you quickly work out who the nobbers are and avoid them. I haven't seen much contact at trackdays, but I have seen SOME. It does happen, but as Jez and Matt imply, it is pretty rare compared to self-binning moves.
If you are worried and the day is open pit lane, don't go out for half an hour and just take a look to see who the nutters are and let everyone calm down.
Many of the incidents that I have seen are near the end of the day tho', as people try and squeeze in hyper confident 'last laps of the day' when the car or themselves may be beyond their best abilities. For that reason, always stop when you've had enough and don't force yourself to get your money's worth. A few passenger rides (not with the nutters!) at the end of the day or a walk around the paddock can be great fun.
Agree with Domster, there are pr@ts that see track days as motorsport or for their own personal enjoyment only & treat other drivers accordingly.
I've stopped using one organiser 'cos there was a bit too much of this going on - seemingly by his "mates" who appeared to be exempt any rules or sanction.
Another company (that Domster mentions) don't seem to have these problems.
To insure or not is a question only you can answer. Can you afford to risk your car, or handle the guilt if you wreck someone elses? Personally I wouldn't take my motor on track without it.
I've stopped using one organiser 'cos there was a bit too much of this going on - seemingly by his "mates" who appeared to be exempt any rules or sanction.
Another company (that Domster mentions) don't seem to have these problems.
To insure or not is a question only you can answer. Can you afford to risk your car, or handle the guilt if you wreck someone elses? Personally I wouldn't take my motor on track without it.
But Leadfoot, as mentioned above, getting track insurance isn't about covering any damage you make to another car. So you should make the decision based purely on how you feel about risk & damage to your own car.
Domster - is CCI really only £60 for 5k? With how much excess? When I looked a year ago it simply wasn't worth it. AndrewD and I decided to self insure (50k+ track car) last year, and it's worked out fine so far.
Domster - is CCI really only £60 for 5k? With how much excess? When I looked a year ago it simply wasn't worth it. AndrewD and I decided to self insure (50k+ track car) last year, and it's worked out fine so far.
I am not the most regular trackday attendee here by a very long way .... I have done a few and the golden rules for me are ...
1 - drive within your own limits (know them and stick to them)
2 - take instruction every year at least once to get better/learn the lines etc - often the best £20 spent of the day
3 - make sure the car is up to it.
4 - drive to 8-9/10's, never 11/10's
5 - sort out the parts of the track where you can safely explore the limits without track furniture, and other cars. Explore the envelope there, do not explore the envelope at 11/10's where it could have significant consequences.
6 - stay clear of everyone else ! Do not overtake in the corners, braking zones and around the pit entry.
7 - assume everyone is a lunatic with no car control and keep an eye on them accordingly
8 - I prefer open pit lane days as I am quicker than novices, but not always as quick as regulars. More importantly it allows me to manage my own time on track and not feel pressured to use the time as I have bought it !
9 - I always avoid driving in the last 1/2hr to 1r as people to tend to begin to get tired, I get tired, cars are tired and confidence levels are often way beyond talent !
10 - Enjoy it !! It really is the best opportunity to have cracking laugh with friends in your car without the fear of cameras and meuppets coming the other way !
I have been a large shunt at Combe whilst a passenger in friends car at Quarry corner. Both cars involved were totalled. All inhabitants walked away free of injury. The crash was due to mechanical failure of my friends car. Nothing you could have been able to prevent or even notice beforehand.
No-one was insured. Total loss on the day for both parties was around £18k. It's a lot to loose !! Let alone all the other costs that are incurred later on !
I insure the car, not always for the total value, but at least I will have some coming back if I do get it wrong, or someone hits me.
1 - drive within your own limits (know them and stick to them)
2 - take instruction every year at least once to get better/learn the lines etc - often the best £20 spent of the day
3 - make sure the car is up to it.
4 - drive to 8-9/10's, never 11/10's
5 - sort out the parts of the track where you can safely explore the limits without track furniture, and other cars. Explore the envelope there, do not explore the envelope at 11/10's where it could have significant consequences.
6 - stay clear of everyone else ! Do not overtake in the corners, braking zones and around the pit entry.
7 - assume everyone is a lunatic with no car control and keep an eye on them accordingly
8 - I prefer open pit lane days as I am quicker than novices, but not always as quick as regulars. More importantly it allows me to manage my own time on track and not feel pressured to use the time as I have bought it !
9 - I always avoid driving in the last 1/2hr to 1r as people to tend to begin to get tired, I get tired, cars are tired and confidence levels are often way beyond talent !
10 - Enjoy it !! It really is the best opportunity to have cracking laugh with friends in your car without the fear of cameras and meuppets coming the other way !
I have been a large shunt at Combe whilst a passenger in friends car at Quarry corner. Both cars involved were totalled. All inhabitants walked away free of injury. The crash was due to mechanical failure of my friends car. Nothing you could have been able to prevent or even notice beforehand.
No-one was insured. Total loss on the day for both parties was around £18k. It's a lot to loose !! Let alone all the other costs that are incurred later on !
I insure the car, not always for the total value, but at least I will have some coming back if I do get it wrong, or someone hits me.
dannylt said:
But Leadfoot, as mentioned above, getting track insurance isn't about covering any damage you make to another car. So you should make the decision based purely on how you feel about risk & damage to your own car.
True for dedicated track cover, but my road policy covers me for track use with all the usual benefits applying.
I might not *have* to cover someone elses damage if the worst happened but I would expect them to try & claim against me (no doubt the insurance company would try & wriggle out of it).
Leadfoot said:
if the worst happened but I would expect them to try & claim against me
Why? its your responsibility on a track day to avoid everyone else simple. If somebody hits you then you were in the wrong place.
Its talk like this that will kill track days along with the i had an accident it must be someone elses fault cause it carnt be mine....
dannylt said:
Domster - is CCI really only £60 for 5k? With how much excess? When I looked a year ago it simply wasn't worth it. AndrewD and I decided to self insure (50k+ track car) last year, and it's worked out fine so far.
Yes, I believe my figures are approx. correct. Ring them for a quote tho'. The excess is normally 500 GBP but it can be raised to lower the premium. I think 5k of cover with 750 excess was 64 GBP or something.
It becomes less doable on expensive cars - it was a good few hundred to get 30k of cover on a 50k car, ie at least 20k of it was still at risk. Ring the guys/girls for a chat. They are friendly and helpful.
Graham said:
Why? its your responsibility on a track day to avoid everyone else simple. If somebody hits you then you were in the wrong place.
Its talk like this that will kill track days along with the i had an accident it must be someone elses fault cause it carnt be mine....
Little harm will be done by talking sensibly about accident risk. If people knew more about it, more may go on track days and more may get insured!
As for avoiding everyone, I quite agree that everyone has a duty to be courteous and safe on track, and consider other track users. But when I have seen contact the facts have rarely been clearcut - you can't just say 'avoid everyone, simple'.
At Donington for example, two cars collided because a driver pointed out a feature of the circuit to his passenger. The following car took the arm in the air to be a 'please pass me' wave. The first car then turned into the second.
On another occasion I witnessed, both drivers blamed the other and claimed to be in the right. From a spectator's viewpoint it was difficult to tell.
When I have nearly been sideswiped as a passenger with Jeremyc during an overtake we made at Hethel, the manouevre we made was perfectly safe and reasonable to begin with. However, a pheasant decided to run across the track in front of the car we were overtaking, and the driver instinctively pulled over towards us. Whatever his 'duty' was I'm sure instinct had its own idea.
Overtaking is by far the most dangerous aspect of trackdays, especially with two faster cars overtaking a slow car together (where the second fast car is hidden). Also, where race car testing or even Radicals are mixed with normal road cars, the closing speeds are horrendous and overtakes much more frequent. If you want to minimise the risk, go in a 'grouped' trackday rather than open pit, where beginners/intermmediates/professionals can sit together. And always wait for people to indicate or wave you past before overtaking.
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