Warning: Javelin Motorsport
Discussion
This is a warning about Javelin Motorsport, a track day organiser. It is a bit of a rant, but may save you having a good day spoilt if you do chose to use this company for a trackday.
Yesterday (Saturday 18th) October myself and my staff went to Elvington airfield for a staff track day. We took our 2 Caterham 7 cars (R400 and Supersprint). The event seem to be well organised at first until we experienced the over zealousness of the track marshals.
In the morning one of the organisers from Javelin came up to me and asked if I was driving the R400, I responded that I was. He told me that under a red flag (there has been an accident or break down - slow down, no overtaking, leave the circuit) I was driving too fast (I did not overtake though) and that I had "nearly hit a marshall". My passenger was just as incredulous as myself regarding the bit about nearly hitting a marshal. It was 100% nonsense.
He told me the marshals were "absolutely livid" and that I needed to apologise to the circuit controller (who let's you on to the circuit from the pit lane). I was also to apologise to the other marshals on the circuit using the circuit controllers walkie talkie. I refuted the accusation that I nearly hit a marshal. At no time in the day did I spin, come off the circuit onto the grass, or come anywhere near a marshal.
The cost for the 2 cars was £170 (£85 per car). With expenses for travelling and the staffs lunch, I'm looking at about £300 for the day. For that kind of money I was prepared to accept the marshals opinion that I was going too fast under a red flag (even though I actually eased off) and apologise to the circuit controller.
I approached the circuit controller (he was quite a nice fella actually) and I accepted the marshals view that I was going too fast under a red flag (even though I did not agree). I used his radio to apologise to the marshals on the circuit. At no time did I apologise for nearly hitting a marshal. The circuit controller he said "OK, don't worry about it, it's forgotten". So much for "nearly hitting a marshal".
The day was marred by lots of red flags. Usually at Elvington you can expect about 2 or possibly 3 in one day, in my experience anyway. There must have been about 15 in the day. Crap cars breaking down? No, more a case of cars spinning and the marshals red flagging to get everyone off the circuit to send the Land Rover Discovery out to tow the car back in, despite Elvington being a flat airfield with lot's of run off. Most of the cars could have simply got back onto the circuit. One of my guests in the Supersprint locked his brakes up and hit a cone in a bloody big cloud of smoke
The result? Red flags and Land Rover out to get him, despite the fact that the car was completely OK.
Then there were the black flags. If you don't know what a black flag is, it means somebody's driving is dangerous or their vehicle is of concern to the marshals and they need to leave the circuit immediately, where a marshal will speak to them. A black flag only applies to the car it is waved at, as opposed to a red flag which applies to every car on the circuit.
There were quite a few people black flagged. One time in the afternoon I caught up a white Escort rally car. I was behind him for 3 corners coming into the straight facing the pit lane, where I planned to overtake him on the inside. Yes, Javelin have a stupid rule where you must overtake on the right, which for most of circuit is the inside since the circuit runs clockwise
As the white Escort came into the straight he was black flagged for holding me up. At no time was I frustrated with the driver - I was only behind him for 3 corners. I would not even have considered complaining about him. It was not a race and nobody was recording their lap times.
It was slightly later when I experienced just how bad/braindead the marshals really were. On the final straight of the circuit, just before the hairpin, I went to overtake a white Escort rally car. I'm not sure if this was the same car that was black flagged previously, as there were about 3 white Escort rally cars at the event that day. As I pulled along side him (on the right remember) I spotted a marshal in front holding a red flag. Knowing how over zealous the marshals were, I immediately eased off, and gently braked to get behind the white Escort car. We slowly came back into the pits (only 2 corners later). Luckily for me, the white Escort immediately did a U-turn in the pits to get back into the pit lane queue ready to go out again. I followed suit, so at this point I am in the pit lane queue right behind the white Escort. Therefore at no time did I overtake him. Definitely NOT rocket science.
It was then that the same Javelin organiser that told me off in the morning decided he was going to kick me off the circuit. He told me I overtook a white Escort under a red flag and therefore "my day was over" and I was not allowed to go back onto the circuit. He did not personally see me overtake the white Escort but was going off what the marshal on the final straight told him over the walkie talkies.
Despite an explanation that my overtaking manoeuvre was aborted and that I slowed down and stayed behind the Escort, he was having none of it. Apparently I had overtaken the white Escort and that was that. What was bloody ridiculous was that I had clearly come into the pits *after* the white Escort - he was there right in front of me in the pit queue! Therefore the charge of overtaking him under a red flag was complete rubbish, and at best was laughable. My passenger agreed but was ignored.
I argued my case but I was wasting my time. I've been to various track and airfield events including:
Croft (Bookatrack)
Elvington previously (Bookatrack and Easytrack)
Oulton Park (Octagon / Caterham day)
Anglesey (Bookatrack)
I was in the intermediate group at Oulton and the advanced group at Anglesey at the end of September. I have never been warned by a marshal at any event, and never been black flagged. I told this to the Javelin organiser but he stated that it was an indication of the quality of the marshals from those other organisers (i.e. they were crap). I agree about the difference in quality - I've never had a problem with the marshals at those other events, they are obviously much better than the marshals used by Javelin.
So if you are thinking of booking a track day with Javelin take note. If you must use them I would recommend at the very least to film your sessions. I have a camera I used at Anglesey last month, but I did not take it to this event
I've found Bookatrack, Easytrack and Octagon to be good organisers. All drivers are adults and are treated accordingly. The Javelin experience left me feeling like I was back at school. It does not change my opinion that Elvington is a very good venue and is recommended to all drivers, Caterham or otherwise.
If you have any bad experiences with track day organisers please post them here. Track days are expensive and we can save ourselves money and frustration by avoiding the bad ones.
Cheers,
Lee
>>> Edited by chiz on Sunday 19th October 19:46
Yesterday (Saturday 18th) October myself and my staff went to Elvington airfield for a staff track day. We took our 2 Caterham 7 cars (R400 and Supersprint). The event seem to be well organised at first until we experienced the over zealousness of the track marshals.
In the morning one of the organisers from Javelin came up to me and asked if I was driving the R400, I responded that I was. He told me that under a red flag (there has been an accident or break down - slow down, no overtaking, leave the circuit) I was driving too fast (I did not overtake though) and that I had "nearly hit a marshall". My passenger was just as incredulous as myself regarding the bit about nearly hitting a marshal. It was 100% nonsense.
He told me the marshals were "absolutely livid" and that I needed to apologise to the circuit controller (who let's you on to the circuit from the pit lane). I was also to apologise to the other marshals on the circuit using the circuit controllers walkie talkie. I refuted the accusation that I nearly hit a marshal. At no time in the day did I spin, come off the circuit onto the grass, or come anywhere near a marshal.
The cost for the 2 cars was £170 (£85 per car). With expenses for travelling and the staffs lunch, I'm looking at about £300 for the day. For that kind of money I was prepared to accept the marshals opinion that I was going too fast under a red flag (even though I actually eased off) and apologise to the circuit controller.
I approached the circuit controller (he was quite a nice fella actually) and I accepted the marshals view that I was going too fast under a red flag (even though I did not agree). I used his radio to apologise to the marshals on the circuit. At no time did I apologise for nearly hitting a marshal. The circuit controller he said "OK, don't worry about it, it's forgotten". So much for "nearly hitting a marshal".
The day was marred by lots of red flags. Usually at Elvington you can expect about 2 or possibly 3 in one day, in my experience anyway. There must have been about 15 in the day. Crap cars breaking down? No, more a case of cars spinning and the marshals red flagging to get everyone off the circuit to send the Land Rover Discovery out to tow the car back in, despite Elvington being a flat airfield with lot's of run off. Most of the cars could have simply got back onto the circuit. One of my guests in the Supersprint locked his brakes up and hit a cone in a bloody big cloud of smoke
The result? Red flags and Land Rover out to get him, despite the fact that the car was completely OK. Then there were the black flags. If you don't know what a black flag is, it means somebody's driving is dangerous or their vehicle is of concern to the marshals and they need to leave the circuit immediately, where a marshal will speak to them. A black flag only applies to the car it is waved at, as opposed to a red flag which applies to every car on the circuit.
There were quite a few people black flagged. One time in the afternoon I caught up a white Escort rally car. I was behind him for 3 corners coming into the straight facing the pit lane, where I planned to overtake him on the inside. Yes, Javelin have a stupid rule where you must overtake on the right, which for most of circuit is the inside since the circuit runs clockwise
As the white Escort came into the straight he was black flagged for holding me up. At no time was I frustrated with the driver - I was only behind him for 3 corners. I would not even have considered complaining about him. It was not a race and nobody was recording their lap times.
It was slightly later when I experienced just how bad/braindead the marshals really were. On the final straight of the circuit, just before the hairpin, I went to overtake a white Escort rally car. I'm not sure if this was the same car that was black flagged previously, as there were about 3 white Escort rally cars at the event that day. As I pulled along side him (on the right remember) I spotted a marshal in front holding a red flag. Knowing how over zealous the marshals were, I immediately eased off, and gently braked to get behind the white Escort car. We slowly came back into the pits (only 2 corners later). Luckily for me, the white Escort immediately did a U-turn in the pits to get back into the pit lane queue ready to go out again. I followed suit, so at this point I am in the pit lane queue right behind the white Escort. Therefore at no time did I overtake him. Definitely NOT rocket science.
It was then that the same Javelin organiser that told me off in the morning decided he was going to kick me off the circuit. He told me I overtook a white Escort under a red flag and therefore "my day was over" and I was not allowed to go back onto the circuit. He did not personally see me overtake the white Escort but was going off what the marshal on the final straight told him over the walkie talkies.
Despite an explanation that my overtaking manoeuvre was aborted and that I slowed down and stayed behind the Escort, he was having none of it. Apparently I had overtaken the white Escort and that was that. What was bloody ridiculous was that I had clearly come into the pits *after* the white Escort - he was there right in front of me in the pit queue! Therefore the charge of overtaking him under a red flag was complete rubbish, and at best was laughable. My passenger agreed but was ignored.
I argued my case but I was wasting my time. I've been to various track and airfield events including:
Croft (Bookatrack)
Elvington previously (Bookatrack and Easytrack)
Oulton Park (Octagon / Caterham day)
Anglesey (Bookatrack)
I was in the intermediate group at Oulton and the advanced group at Anglesey at the end of September. I have never been warned by a marshal at any event, and never been black flagged. I told this to the Javelin organiser but he stated that it was an indication of the quality of the marshals from those other organisers (i.e. they were crap). I agree about the difference in quality - I've never had a problem with the marshals at those other events, they are obviously much better than the marshals used by Javelin.
So if you are thinking of booking a track day with Javelin take note. If you must use them I would recommend at the very least to film your sessions. I have a camera I used at Anglesey last month, but I did not take it to this event
I've found Bookatrack, Easytrack and Octagon to be good organisers. All drivers are adults and are treated accordingly. The Javelin experience left me feeling like I was back at school. It does not change my opinion that Elvington is a very good venue and is recommended to all drivers, Caterham or otherwise.
If you have any bad experiences with track day organisers please post them here. Track days are expensive and we can save ourselves money and frustration by avoiding the bad ones.
Cheers,
Lee
>>> Edited by chiz on Sunday 19th October 19:46
As ever, there are two sides to every story (and why we don't normally tolerate name and shame threads). I'll let PHers draw their own conclusions (as I have done 
):
): javelin said:
Hi Lee,
I have been alerted to your comments regarding our company by a 7 owning client who found your opinions totally out of phase with his own. As with all things in life I hope the readers of this forum are intelligent enough to realise there are two sides to every story.
Normally I would respect a clients dignity and not discuss these matters openly but as you have chosen to call into question our companies reputation in a public forum I feel I have a right present our side of the story in the same way.
Lets take the "speeding under red flags incident" in the morning. Whilst I did not personally see the incident I did hear the marshals radio messages were one alarmed marshal warned another who was replacing some dislodged cones on the circuit (NB not the reason for the red flags) that you were approaching him at speed having passed a red flag. Sorry but we consider that nearly hitting a marshal not just missing him by a few feet. By the way the marshal in the track was after the circuit exit lane that you should have taken having been shown the red flag anyway.
You then continued at speed past 2 more red flags before finally slowing to a reasonable pace( both marshals reporting the fact by radio to control) . No one implied you had overtaken on this occasion. After some discussion we decided that educational reprimand was the way to handle the situation hence the request for you to apologise to the marshals. Marshal Safety is absolutely paramount on our events.
Your reference to monies paid suggests that you only apologised to save yourself money and you admit the apology was not sincere which must tell us something. You imply that even at that stage of the day you were treating our organisation with contempt.
The number of red flag incidents is a a total exaggeration. I admit there were a few but nothing like 15. Look at this logically, 15 stoppages would have resulted in approx 2 hours loss of tracktime and no one has complained about this apart from you. Very strange. I make no apology whatsoever for our marshals showing concern when a car stops on circuit.
You refer to your friends incident at the chicane which I did witness. Put yourself in a Circuit Controllers shoes for a moment. By the way did I point out that our Circuit Controller has over 4 years experience of the same roll at a major UK Race Circuit. From his viewpoint it looked dramatic as even you describe it. The car is stopped on the track facing oncoming traffic. he is at the corner prior to the incident and a yellow flag is displayed. Admittedly the car is slightly off the "racing " line but still in a vunerable position and drivers have been known to show disregard for flagged warnings. The marshal from the downstream post has time to walk to the scene of the incident on the opposite side of the track to car. He reports by radio to the contoller that the occupants appear OK and are trying to unsuccessfully restart the car. Should he continue running the circuit under yellow for that point risking that the occupants may actually get out of the car and try and run across the track for assistance or use red flags to make safe the situation. I seem to remember it took the time involved for us to red flag and clear down the circuit plus the time for the recovery vehicle to reach the scene before the car restarted. Personally I think the controller made the right call.
I actually black flagged the the Escort Rally car you were lining up to overtake not to spoil your moment or because he was blocking you( which he was not by the way because I would not have blacked him with a car close up behind) but because part of the passenger seatbelt webbing was seen hanging below the door on the outside which suggests the harness was possibly not tightened correctly. if that is overzealous I again make no apology.
I note you make no mention of the rather nice Porsche that started to smoke quite badly whilst on circuit. its driver ignored 3 black flagging attempts to warn him of the situation resulting in a rather damaged motor.
Now to your final compliant. Sorry but now I really would welcome a sincere apology from you to our highly experienced or in your opinion "braindead" marshals. I think you would be amazed at the amount of experience that the team contains. Again you only tell half of the story. I stand by my decision that you were correctly sent home for overtaking under red flags I could have done it for speeding under red flags for a second time just as legitimately. 3 marshals posted approx a third of a mile apart without a chance to colaberate were telling the same story which does not start on the straight prior to the hairpin as you suggest but at the Esses previous to this. You were following an Escort down the straight prior to the Esses when a red flags were deployed. The Escort driver acknowledged the flag by waving to the marshal. The track was visibly clear in front of him and you were closing from behind. He had control of the car and rightly carried his speed through the Esses thereby reducing the risk of you hitting him from behind. You passed the red flag at this point with no acknowledgement. You quite rightly did not pass the Escort through the Essses bends but when you reached the straight and the Escort slowed and rightly moved left so as not to impeed emergency vehicle traffic you actually passed the escort. After you realised what you had done because you passed the next red flag being waved at speed as you overtook the Escort you then slowed to drop behind the Escort. This also explains the order of cars leaving circuit. You state that I went on the word of the marshal on the final straight in making my desicion to exclude you and yet in your prescence I called all 3 marshals involved on the radio (NB they were not aware you were listening) and questioned them over the incident. You heard the replies.
Again you misinterpret my words with regard to other circuits marshals. Put in context ie you just having been excluded and "having a go" about the quality of our marshals.If you quoted my reply correctly " I cannot vouch for the quality of marshalling on other events" is quite neutral and not as you imply.
It may not be what you want to read but without qualms I stand by my decision and by our marshalling team.
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