Tuscan Racer for 750 a day?
Discussion
I assume that is car hire only, track day entry would be on top of that? Would that include consumables? Would you get the car delivered to the circuit and supported during the day? Would it include insurance? Is that the cost for exclusive use of the car for the day, or would you be sharing with others for that price?
If the answer to all the above is 'yes' then that is a bargain. You may not get many takers for the whole day, but split it three or four ways and suddenly it looks like a very interesting proposition. I suspect you'd struggle to cover your running costs at that price though?
If the answer to all the above is 'yes' then that is a bargain. You may not get many takers for the whole day, but split it three or four ways and suddenly it looks like a very interesting proposition. I suspect you'd struggle to cover your running costs at that price though?
Without going into too much commercial detail,
(If this kicks off, I will of course be advertising on PH) - yes to most of your questions Pete.
Originally I tried the figures with track day included, but that really did erode any profit, so track day cost would not be included.
Petrol, insurance, helmets (limited supply) and support are included. Professional (ie qualified) instruction may be available as extra, although it would be held at a regular organised day where ARDS people are usually available. The price is per day, so sharing would be even cheaper, but time slots would have to be agreed between the punters and fit in with the Track Day Organisers (obviously).
The car, I must stress, would not be a later AJP one, but a 4L Rover supercharged Streber conversion (as in PH ads), so perhaps a little easier to drive.
Not quite Topcats, but that's why it would be cheaper.
The idea is not to make a huge profit, but cover the costs of the car (insurance is HUGE) and make a bit for holidays etc!
It's all speculation and excel data at the moment.
I've yet to convince Mrs Chuff. Of course I'd love to just go and buy the car anyway, but if it can keep itself, so much the better!
Dr C
(If this kicks off, I will of course be advertising on PH) - yes to most of your questions Pete.
Originally I tried the figures with track day included, but that really did erode any profit, so track day cost would not be included.
Petrol, insurance, helmets (limited supply) and support are included. Professional (ie qualified) instruction may be available as extra, although it would be held at a regular organised day where ARDS people are usually available. The price is per day, so sharing would be even cheaper, but time slots would have to be agreed between the punters and fit in with the Track Day Organisers (obviously).
The car, I must stress, would not be a later AJP one, but a 4L Rover supercharged Streber conversion (as in PH ads), so perhaps a little easier to drive.
Not quite Topcats, but that's why it would be cheaper.
The idea is not to make a huge profit, but cover the costs of the car (insurance is HUGE) and make a bit for holidays etc!
It's all speculation and excel data at the moment.
I've yet to convince Mrs Chuff. Of course I'd love to just go and buy the car anyway, but if it can keep itself, so much the better!
Dr C
Most I've paid so far is £400 for a half share of a car on an open pit lane day (Caterham Roadsport, Formula Renault). I think I have a mental barrier at £500 all in so you might just scrape under depending on circuit.
I'd also be interested in shorter sessions (2* half hour say) although I'd want the organiser to sort out the scheduling on the day for that kind of arrangement.
I do expect a car (even a track prepared TVR) to be 100% reliable, and would want a refund or credit if any time was lost due to non driver induced failures.
AdrianR
I'd also be interested in shorter sessions (2* half hour say) although I'd want the organiser to sort out the scheduling on the day for that kind of arrangement.
I do expect a car (even a track prepared TVR) to be 100% reliable, and would want a refund or credit if any time was lost due to non driver induced failures.
AdrianR
Dr Chuff
Have you spoken with anyone involved in running Tuscans in the Challenge?
The Tuscan needs a lot of fettling to keep it on the track. You are talking about a seriously quick car so it is vital that everything is spanner checked between sessions. You'll may also find that the engine is not 100% reliable. I asked Steve Howard the other day whether the AJP V8 was more or less reliable in the race cars than the Rover V8. The answer was emphatic - the RV8s were far more troublesome than the AJP's. I wouldn't assume that because you have an RV8 that it will be reliable.
Look at the kind of support that the Topcats Tuscan has for its outings, or when TVR take their 2 seater out at track days. They both have a least a couple of mechanics on hand all day to keep the car on the track. This all contributes the the high cost of going out in a Tuscan.
Why not give Steve Howard a call and ask for some advice - I'm sure he'd be happy to chat.
Its a great idea and I wish you all the luck in the world with it.
Have you spoken with anyone involved in running Tuscans in the Challenge?
The Tuscan needs a lot of fettling to keep it on the track. You are talking about a seriously quick car so it is vital that everything is spanner checked between sessions. You'll may also find that the engine is not 100% reliable. I asked Steve Howard the other day whether the AJP V8 was more or less reliable in the race cars than the Rover V8. The answer was emphatic - the RV8s were far more troublesome than the AJP's. I wouldn't assume that because you have an RV8 that it will be reliable.
Look at the kind of support that the Topcats Tuscan has for its outings, or when TVR take their 2 seater out at track days. They both have a least a couple of mechanics on hand all day to keep the car on the track. This all contributes the the high cost of going out in a Tuscan.
Why not give Steve Howard a call and ask for some advice - I'm sure he'd be happy to chat.
Its a great idea and I wish you all the luck in the world with it.
Hi Andy, Adrian.
Yes, I would expect the car to be 100%, and be spanner checked (as I expected my Chimaera to be). Any breakdowns or other maintenance related reasons for cancelling the day would be refunded pro-rata or re-booked.
Having mechanics in attendance is a problem (I can change pads and adjust suspension, but no more) unless I can find a Tuscan savvy mech to do it for free (or very, very cheaply!).
Andy, I'm trying to get hold of Topcats now through their reply form. I didn't know the RV8 was considered less reliable! I'm still reviewing the servicing requirements. I plan to do between 10 and 20 track days a year, so I will need to know what level of service that equate to (2,3 full services etc)
how much I can get done between days etc.
Another possibilty is a stripped out Cerbera, which may be cheaper to run, but has less visual impact, and would require more changes (roll cage, brakes, seats etc).
How is your Tuscan going? I take it it's purely for racing?
Cheers
DR C
Yes, I would expect the car to be 100%, and be spanner checked (as I expected my Chimaera to be). Any breakdowns or other maintenance related reasons for cancelling the day would be refunded pro-rata or re-booked.
Having mechanics in attendance is a problem (I can change pads and adjust suspension, but no more) unless I can find a Tuscan savvy mech to do it for free (or very, very cheaply!).
Andy, I'm trying to get hold of Topcats now through their reply form. I didn't know the RV8 was considered less reliable! I'm still reviewing the servicing requirements. I plan to do between 10 and 20 track days a year, so I will need to know what level of service that equate to (2,3 full services etc)
how much I can get done between days etc.
Another possibilty is a stripped out Cerbera, which may be cheaper to run, but has less visual impact, and would require more changes (roll cage, brakes, seats etc).
How is your Tuscan going? I take it it's purely for racing?
Cheers
DR C
griff2be said: Dr Chuff
Look at the kind of support that the Topcats Tuscan has for its outings, or when TVR take their 2 seater out at track days. They both have a least a couple of mechanics on hand all day to keep the car on the track. This all contributes the the high cost of going out in a Tuscan.
griff2be, you are right, when we have the two seater out there are at least two of us there on the mechanical side. Additionaly as the car is brought in the race truck, we have a near full workshop to support the car should things go wrong.
The car is given checks throughout the day inc. full spanner checks. We run an AJP engine which is far more reliable than the Rover unit. The car runs a full dogbox so the engine is given a lot of stick over the day, and has to date been near flawless
Charlotte Osbourn is an ARDS instructor and is very good at getting people to push themselves and getting more from the car, flying laps are available if people want them, this really gives people an idea of what the car is capable of in the hands of very good racing driver.
Costs: in terms of fuel, the car has a huge
problem so that is a big consideration. I pick up mine tomorrow, and yes it is going to be purely a racecar. I might convert it to a road/track day car with a Cerbera lump sometime in the distant future, but that isn't on the horizon at the moment.
You should have a chat with the racing guys. Running what is still a race car is totally different from running a road car e.g. it is common on the race cars to change the brake fluid after every 15 minute race. Nuts and bolts have a tendency to undo themselves, so everything on the suspension and brakes etc is checked every time the car goes out. You are really talking about constant attention. My fear would be that without mechanics in attendance you could end up paying a lot of refunds, or worse, the car go out with a problem making it unsafe.
How would you deal with a situation where someone had paid you £750, plus track day attendance of say £300 and you had a problem with the car in the first session. Would you give the guy his £750 back PLUS his £300? Could get expensive! You'l also get through a fair number of tyres over 20 track days!
Would you intend accompanying drivers in the car? Do you have a plan for preventing a complete novice getting in it and stuffing it into a barrier as they are not used to the power?
I suspect you may end up nearer the Topcats prices with everything factored in.
That said, it would be great if you could make it work.
You should have a chat with the racing guys. Running what is still a race car is totally different from running a road car e.g. it is common on the race cars to change the brake fluid after every 15 minute race. Nuts and bolts have a tendency to undo themselves, so everything on the suspension and brakes etc is checked every time the car goes out. You are really talking about constant attention. My fear would be that without mechanics in attendance you could end up paying a lot of refunds, or worse, the car go out with a problem making it unsafe.
How would you deal with a situation where someone had paid you £750, plus track day attendance of say £300 and you had a problem with the car in the first session. Would you give the guy his £750 back PLUS his £300? Could get expensive! You'l also get through a fair number of tyres over 20 track days!
Would you intend accompanying drivers in the car? Do you have a plan for preventing a complete novice getting in it and stuffing it into a barrier as they are not used to the power?
I suspect you may end up nearer the Topcats prices with everything factored in.
That said, it would be great if you could make it work.
OK, let's keep this going, I've had similar thoughts so perhaps we can come up with something together.
First thing that occurs to me is unless you are hiring to racers to do stealth testing, then a track day car doesn't have to be a race car. The only excuse a race car has for being unreliable is that it runs on the ragged edge of performance, and to misquote Colin Chapman if it doesn't fall to bits on the slowdown lap it was over engineered. A track day car could be a bit less powerful, a bit heavier and a whole lot more reliable.
I read a lot of the Carroll Smith preparation books last time I thought about this; his view is that properly constructed and prepared cars don't come to bits by themselves and should run reliably for whatever meeting you have readied them for. The trick is to understand the car enough that you can plan a preventative maintenance schedule that replaces any "lifed" bits before they wear out.
Re: the ecomonics of it all, the conclusion I came to was that for hire driving you'd have to do a whole lot of days to make it worthwhile as you have a lot of ownership/maintenance/depreciation costs to spread. I did start wondering whether a syndicate of some sort would work; split costs & effort between 2 or 3 of you, and hire out any spare seat time at days you were going to go to anyway.
Cheers,
AdrianR
(back to browsing race car classifieds)
First thing that occurs to me is unless you are hiring to racers to do stealth testing, then a track day car doesn't have to be a race car. The only excuse a race car has for being unreliable is that it runs on the ragged edge of performance, and to misquote Colin Chapman if it doesn't fall to bits on the slowdown lap it was over engineered. A track day car could be a bit less powerful, a bit heavier and a whole lot more reliable.
I read a lot of the Carroll Smith preparation books last time I thought about this; his view is that properly constructed and prepared cars don't come to bits by themselves and should run reliably for whatever meeting you have readied them for. The trick is to understand the car enough that you can plan a preventative maintenance schedule that replaces any "lifed" bits before they wear out.
Re: the ecomonics of it all, the conclusion I came to was that for hire driving you'd have to do a whole lot of days to make it worthwhile as you have a lot of ownership/maintenance/depreciation costs to spread. I did start wondering whether a syndicate of some sort would work; split costs & effort between 2 or 3 of you, and hire out any spare seat time at days you were going to go to anyway.
Cheers,
AdrianR
(back to browsing race car classifieds)
I hire out a MegaBlade as TrackDayCarHire.com. Don't underestimate the amount of maintenance work, particularly preventative maintenance, you will end up doing. You must remember you are letting someone drive something in which they could possibly seriously injure or even kill themselves in. All of the 'motorsport is dangerous' or 'I accept full liability' contracts matter not a jot if there's death or injury involved. If you have done [or not done] anything that could look like that you have failed in your duty of care, then you are in deep doo-doo.
I'm not suggesting for one moment that you don't think about hiring out your car, but when someone else is out in it, it brings it all home that your liability is limited only by the care you can be shown to have taken. Quite apart from any financial liability, you have to consider the moral responsibilities. If someone did injure themselves or worse in your car, could you live with it?
The only way to sleep nights is, in my case, to be 100% sure that the car is safe.
This means the maintenance times and costs are way above what you'd look at for your own car. Here's a few examples. I detected a very slight 'knock' in the steering rack. If it was just me driving, the knock was so slight my 'personal' checks probably wouldn't have spotted it [how thoroughly do you check your own car before a track day?], but my 'pre hire fine toothcomb' did. I was 99.99% sure it was the small plastic bush in the rack, and I'd have just driven the car like it was until it got worse. But, as the car was going out on hire I took the rack out straight away and got it professionally refurbished with a warranty.
I had a very slight noise out the gearbox box at one point. I was sure it was just a chipped tooth and I'd have driven the car and got it fixed later. However, as it was to be out on hire I had to take the box out and strip it down...and it was just a bit of hardening off a tooth, so I replaced a gear.
Basically, what I'm saying there's a world of difference with what you'd live with as your own car, and what you end up fixing if its for hire. If you are capable of doing all these maintenance tasks yourself, then fine - it's just a lot of work at weekends. If you need to use a garage or a mechanic then it could all get horribly expensive.
Just consider your answers to the following:
"So, Mr X, when was the last time you checked the engine mounts before hiring the car to my client..."
"how can you be sure the propshaft bolts were tight? My client said he detected a vibration just before the incident..."
"the report stated that the brake fluid had a higher than expected water content..."
Not trying to scaremonger, just being realistic. Bottom line is safety costs - in terms of time and parts. Make sure you don't underestimate the costs involved.
Good luck.
WB
I'm not suggesting for one moment that you don't think about hiring out your car, but when someone else is out in it, it brings it all home that your liability is limited only by the care you can be shown to have taken. Quite apart from any financial liability, you have to consider the moral responsibilities. If someone did injure themselves or worse in your car, could you live with it?
The only way to sleep nights is, in my case, to be 100% sure that the car is safe.
This means the maintenance times and costs are way above what you'd look at for your own car. Here's a few examples. I detected a very slight 'knock' in the steering rack. If it was just me driving, the knock was so slight my 'personal' checks probably wouldn't have spotted it [how thoroughly do you check your own car before a track day?], but my 'pre hire fine toothcomb' did. I was 99.99% sure it was the small plastic bush in the rack, and I'd have just driven the car like it was until it got worse. But, as the car was going out on hire I took the rack out straight away and got it professionally refurbished with a warranty.
I had a very slight noise out the gearbox box at one point. I was sure it was just a chipped tooth and I'd have driven the car and got it fixed later. However, as it was to be out on hire I had to take the box out and strip it down...and it was just a bit of hardening off a tooth, so I replaced a gear.
Basically, what I'm saying there's a world of difference with what you'd live with as your own car, and what you end up fixing if its for hire. If you are capable of doing all these maintenance tasks yourself, then fine - it's just a lot of work at weekends. If you need to use a garage or a mechanic then it could all get horribly expensive.
Just consider your answers to the following:
"So, Mr X, when was the last time you checked the engine mounts before hiring the car to my client..."
"how can you be sure the propshaft bolts were tight? My client said he detected a vibration just before the incident..."
"the report stated that the brake fluid had a higher than expected water content..."
Not trying to scaremonger, just being realistic. Bottom line is safety costs - in terms of time and parts. Make sure you don't underestimate the costs involved.
Good luck.
WB
Well thanks again for the feedback guys, but I've hit another problem, one that no business plan can account for or cunning scheme conquer.
Time with Mrs Chuff.
As Willie stated, the Tuscan would use up huge amount of time in maintenance, plus track time earning it's keep.
Now I've already owned 2 previous TVRs and apparently I spent *far* too much time with them, so a track car would be even worse. I might be able to come out of this with a Tuscan road car, but not the racer.
Dr C
Time with Mrs Chuff.
As Willie stated, the Tuscan would use up huge amount of time in maintenance, plus track time earning it's keep.
Now I've already owned 2 previous TVRs and apparently I spent *far* too much time with them, so a track car would be even worse. I might be able to come out of this with a Tuscan road car, but not the racer.
Dr C
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