Are mid engined cars trickier to control when sliding?
Discussion
All my track and road driving has been mostly in front engine rear wheel drive cars, M3s etc and the idea of a VX220 turbo is appealing to me for it's far lighter weight. However, I don't think I've ever lost a slide when it's mattered in the M3 whether it be on the track or poking a little fun at it on the road. I think the handling is ultra safe which I would partly put down to the engine being way out the front so you don't get any pendulum type issues during slides, fishtailing etc.
Is it fair to say that a mid engined car such as an Elise or VXT is significantly more difficult to save once it's slipped away from you at the back and you begin applying lock to deal with it?
See the below video for an example (repost of the vid I know, but it's a good example of what I'm talking about):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_EfFsAPxI
Is it fair to say that a mid engined car such as an Elise or VXT is significantly more difficult to save once it's slipped away from you at the back and you begin applying lock to deal with it?
See the below video for an example (repost of the vid I know, but it's a good example of what I'm talking about):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_EfFsAPxI
I drive a Boxster S - mid-engined. As a package its really very friendly at the limit. Rumour has it that mid-engined cars grip and grip and grip and when they go its fast and you have to be quick to catch it...
...well in my car, at least, you get LOTS of warning (in the dry) before things get out of shape. In the wet, mind, when it goes it really does go...
Which is why the PSM system can be helpful!
VX220 should be Boxster like - plus - as its a LOT lighter. Very nimble car. If you fancy one you should get one.
...well in my car, at least, you get LOTS of warning (in the dry) before things get out of shape. In the wet, mind, when it goes it really does go...
Which is why the PSM system can be helpful!
VX220 should be Boxster like - plus - as its a LOT lighter. Very nimble car. If you fancy one you should get one.
yes they are more difficult - but at the same time more rewarding to get right. it's relatively easy to get in a caterfield/mx5 type car and have a slide around. doing it in an MR2/elise/VX220 requires quicker reactions and a smoother response if you're going to avoid tankslapping half way down the straight.
I've owned both caterhams and elises and have done a lot of track work in each - they are different beasts but equally can give the driver satisfaction in different ways.
Edited to add - much of this can be dealt with via a decent geo setup. For example the S2 elises from the factory are fairly safe and understeery - which means if/when you do provoke it enough to get the back end out - it's quite a violent reaction. If you set it up to be more neutral (or even oversteery) then it's significantly easier to slide around.
Jonny
BaT
I've owned both caterhams and elises and have done a lot of track work in each - they are different beasts but equally can give the driver satisfaction in different ways.
Edited to add - much of this can be dealt with via a decent geo setup. For example the S2 elises from the factory are fairly safe and understeery - which means if/when you do provoke it enough to get the back end out - it's quite a violent reaction. If you set it up to be more neutral (or even oversteery) then it's significantly easier to slide around.
Jonny
BaT
Edited by jleroux on Saturday 30th June 19:14
Benny, no way as easy to balance as yr e30 or the m3, but for a man of your handy wheelman skills really not an issue mate. You will do a few spins in learning but given the way you can handle two wheels you really wont have any issues at all.
The only thing I dont know is if vx's esp turbos are far trickier than elises on the limit or what, as I defo encounter more spinny vx on track, may just be the owners are a bit more inept tho!
The only thing I dont know is if vx's esp turbos are far trickier than elises on the limit or what, as I defo encounter more spinny vx on track, may just be the owners are a bit more inept tho!
Elise & its derivatives are hard to catch when they go, although the reasons for this are also what are best about them. Lightweight mid engined & with a low polar moment of inertia is what makes them agile. Their ability to change direction is one of the best thing about them.
Possibly the worst RWD format for drifting though, most have more grip than power so you can't really brake the rear loose with just the throttle. You have to throw it in faster than it will go and have a little lift to unstick the rear then get back on the throttle. Trouble is you don't have the power to sustain a slide at will and when it snaps back that agility means it comes back *fast* and you need quick hands to tidy up.
Really a car that wants you to be tidy and precis, fantastic when you make it work though, best driving instructor you can get.
Possibly the worst RWD format for drifting though, most have more grip than power so you can't really brake the rear loose with just the throttle. You have to throw it in faster than it will go and have a little lift to unstick the rear then get back on the throttle. Trouble is you don't have the power to sustain a slide at will and when it snaps back that agility means it comes back *fast* and you need quick hands to tidy up.
Really a car that wants you to be tidy and precis, fantastic when you make it work though, best driving instructor you can get.
SpeedyDave said:
Possibly the worst RWD format for drifting though, most have more grip than power so you can't really brake the rear loose with just the throttle.
At this point I feel the need to point out this :-http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/vA/elvA-j5goon1-...
Honda engine + S1 elise = enough bhp for power-oversteer :-)
Jonny
BaT
jleroux said:
SpeedyDave said:
Possibly the worst RWD format for drifting though, most have more grip than power so you can't really brake the rear loose with just the throttle.
At this point I feel the need to point out this :-http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/vA/elvA-j5goon1-...
Honda engine + S1 elise = enough bhp for power-oversteer :-)
Jonny
BaT
I'll be putting one of those engines in my car eventually too, probably with a supercharger for good measure :-)
iguana said:
The only thing I dont know is if vx's esp turbos are far trickier than elises on the limit or what, as I defo encounter more spinny vx on track, may just be the owners are a bit more inept tho!
I did a day at Hethel a few years back of one-to-one tuition with a Lotus tester in Elises (of which he was understandably proud having done much of the original testing and set-up work). He reckoned that VX's are deliberately set up to flatter more agressive driving, i.e. stiffer all round, and that they will therefore seem much better handling to your average Joe, until you hit the limit when they go, and then they go big time! (I can back this up from a BIG spin at Bedford in a track 220 Turbo, although that was probably just Muppetry on my part 
.) Elises on the other hand react more to the weight transfering back and forth, and side to side, and should therefore step out more gently, or so he said.He was much more a fan of the Elise set up, as it gives more scope for using the weight dsitribution to control the car.
By the way, can highly recommed these days at Lotus - you learn an amazing amount, and the flying lap wiht the tester is something else. Not cheap though...
Thanks for the responses. It backs up what I thought really, snappier at the limit and more difficult to save, once sliding than good ol' front engined rear wheel drive.
I think I'll try to get some passenger laps in either an elise or vxt at a track day some time to see how they feel. I really fancy a VXT though, partly because I want some decent overtaking ability in real world traffic situations and partly because I'm a little wary of the K series engine which puts affordable elises out of the running.
I think I'll try to get some passenger laps in either an elise or vxt at a track day some time to see how they feel. I really fancy a VXT though, partly because I want some decent overtaking ability in real world traffic situations and partly because I'm a little wary of the K series engine which puts affordable elises out of the running.
I've driven a 350Z and an Exige S on track and would say that both are easy to catch when the back end goes. The Exige does go much more suddenly but it is still relatively easy to catch - I've never not caught it and I'm not a driving God. The Exige's limits are a lot higher than the Z's though which means it's less likely to go in the first place.
jleroux said:
SpeedyDave said:
Possibly the worst RWD format for drifting though, most have more grip than power so you can't really brake the rear loose with just the throttle.
At this point I feel the need to point out this :-http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/vA/elvA-j5goon1-...
Honda engine + S1 elise = enough bhp for power-oversteer :-)
Jonny
BaT
I take it that must have been BaB?
Cheers
BT
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