Nurburgring BTG = full lap
Discussion
This is an old chestnut, but what the heck here is a controversial view of the argument about Nurburgring lap times. First off a disclaimer "it is not recommended (and probably not allowed) that anyone times themselves lapping the Nurburgring" and before I get completely flamed would like to point out that I have been going to this motoring Mecca several times a year since 1998 so I feel I'm sort of qualified to comment.
When people talk about full flying lap times versus btg lap times and how you have to add on 10 secs or 20 sec or whatever to get a full lap time. Well I put it to you chaps that if you can do btg in say for example 8:40 then you are also capable of driving a full lap in 8:40 ie. You add on nothing!
Please hear me out.
Imagine for one moment that you have just exited the cones and are accelerating under the bridge, and at that very same time a "ghost" of you had just passed under the gantry at top speed with the car and tyres fully warmed up barrelling down the straight. In the ghost you's vision you can see the real you in the distance accelerating with cold tyres. The ghost you is in the groove and fully up to speed, the real you is not in the groove and will take a while to settle in and get everything warmed up.
I put it to you that by the time you reach the gantry next time around the ghost you will have caught the real you up! ie. you add nothing!
Ask any racer, an "out" lap will at best be at least 5% slower than a flying lap, so if you do 8:40 btg then that is your Nurburgring lap time end of story ;-)
When people talk about full flying lap times versus btg lap times and how you have to add on 10 secs or 20 sec or whatever to get a full lap time. Well I put it to you chaps that if you can do btg in say for example 8:40 then you are also capable of driving a full lap in 8:40 ie. You add on nothing!
Please hear me out.
Imagine for one moment that you have just exited the cones and are accelerating under the bridge, and at that very same time a "ghost" of you had just passed under the gantry at top speed with the car and tyres fully warmed up barrelling down the straight. In the ghost you's vision you can see the real you in the distance accelerating with cold tyres. The ghost you is in the groove and fully up to speed, the real you is not in the groove and will take a while to settle in and get everything warmed up.
I put it to you that by the time you reach the gantry next time around the ghost you will have caught the real you up! ie. you add nothing!
Ask any racer, an "out" lap will at best be at least 5% slower than a flying lap, so if you do 8:40 btg then that is your Nurburgring lap time end of story ;-)
Neilpeel59 said:
Imagine for one moment that you have just exited the cones and are accelerating under the bridge, and at that very same time a "ghost" of you had just passed under the gantry at top speed with the car and tyres fully warmed up barrelling down the straight. In the ghost you's vision you can see the real you in the distance accelerating with cold tyres. The ghost you is in the groove and fully up to speed, the real you is not in the groove and will take a while to settle in and get everything warmed up.
I put it to you that by the time you reach the gantry next time around the ghost you will have caught the real you up! ie. you add nothing!
Ask any racer, an "out" lap will at best be at least 5% slower than a flying lap, so if you do 8:40 btg then that is your Nurburgring lap time end of story ;-)
I put it to you that by the time you reach the gantry next time around the ghost you will have caught the real you up! ie. you add nothing!
Ask any racer, an "out" lap will at best be at least 5% slower than a flying lap, so if you do 8:40 btg then that is your Nurburgring lap time end of story ;-)
Wow... got there in the end. Well said
I'm way too busy to be timing myself when I'm out there.. whether flying or BTG.
It's a troll, but I'll bite.
The straight is very long. Someone will I'm sure correct me but I think it's about 2 miles. The only speed up bit is from Bridge to T13. If you get Glagenkopf right in my S2000 I think you're entering the straight at about 100-110mph. By the time you've got to the gantry you're doing 120mph ish. I doubt I could get up to more than about 140 by the time I got to the bridge. However on a out-lap I'll probably be doing 90mph ish under the bridge.
So you add time for GTB (going to be 30 secs I'd have thought), then reduce the time for the bridge to T13 section. I'd doubt you'd save more than about 10 seconds in that section, making 20 seconds (at least) realistic.
And if you've got your car sorted and aren't running semi-slicks, you probably don't need the warm up time, so I wouldn't say that's a factor.
The only real way to tell is to take it on a trackday, rather than a tourist day. then compare.
The straight is very long. Someone will I'm sure correct me but I think it's about 2 miles. The only speed up bit is from Bridge to T13. If you get Glagenkopf right in my S2000 I think you're entering the straight at about 100-110mph. By the time you've got to the gantry you're doing 120mph ish. I doubt I could get up to more than about 140 by the time I got to the bridge. However on a out-lap I'll probably be doing 90mph ish under the bridge.
So you add time for GTB (going to be 30 secs I'd have thought), then reduce the time for the bridge to T13 section. I'd doubt you'd save more than about 10 seconds in that section, making 20 seconds (at least) realistic.
And if you've got your car sorted and aren't running semi-slicks, you probably don't need the warm up time, so I wouldn't say that's a factor.
The only real way to tell is to take it on a trackday, rather than a tourist day. then compare.
fbrs said:
rubbish. you could be in a 956 under the gantry, you wouldnt catch a 356 going under the bridge by T13..
If I go and do 20 laps in a day, with several of those being back to back, then a)my tyres are hot b)I'm well in the groove and c) I agree, that in most cars there is a minimum of 10-15 secs (conservatively) between the two TF 'marker posts' (bridge & gantry). I think even Uwe Alzen in his 700hp GT2 monster would struggle to catch up with his 'ghost' in the approach described by the OP! He's done a full lap (incl GP circuit) in around the same time I can do BTG in my caterham (8'7" for reference - not the Alzen time that is!)
As a reference, I've just looked at a private video of a car doing about a 7:50 (complete) lap.
From GTB, at an average speed of roughly 260 kph, it took 23.9 secs.
From the bridge onwards, after another 23.9 seconds the car had reached nearly the far end of the T13 grandstand. By that point, the tyres of a car that had entered from Grune Holle would be pretty close to optimal temp, so the cars would thereafter be on level pegging.
The distance between GH and the bridge depends on what you consider to be the starting point for your measurement; I'd assume the end of the cones would be the effective starting point of acceleration on a public day. On that basis, the public day distance from GH to bridge is roughly 1/5 of the GTB distance, or roughly 400 metres.
A car that will do a 7:50 lap will do a 1/4 mile terminal speed of, maybe, 200 kph.
The car in the video to which I referred was doing about 275 under the bridge, so at that point it's got a 75 kph head start. However, after it has gone under the bridge and through Tiergarten and is at Hohenrain, it has braked three times and is in 2nd gear. To this point, since it passed under the bridge, 14 seconds have elapsed.
Any advantage of momentum that the full lap car had has now been consumed.
The only further advantage that the full lap car would have would be its warmer tyres, which advantage will be equalised within the next three bends and 10 seconds.
The OP's suggestion is a good one, and surely there ought to be some downward adjustment made to BTG times to allow for the disparities that he has pointed out. These advantages do not, however, add up to the whole of the duration of the GTB sprint; perhaps a quarter of that time would be closer to the mark.
All this is assuming that one is timing oneself on a public day, which is almost always a stupid thing to do.
From GTB, at an average speed of roughly 260 kph, it took 23.9 secs.
From the bridge onwards, after another 23.9 seconds the car had reached nearly the far end of the T13 grandstand. By that point, the tyres of a car that had entered from Grune Holle would be pretty close to optimal temp, so the cars would thereafter be on level pegging.
The distance between GH and the bridge depends on what you consider to be the starting point for your measurement; I'd assume the end of the cones would be the effective starting point of acceleration on a public day. On that basis, the public day distance from GH to bridge is roughly 1/5 of the GTB distance, or roughly 400 metres.
A car that will do a 7:50 lap will do a 1/4 mile terminal speed of, maybe, 200 kph.
The car in the video to which I referred was doing about 275 under the bridge, so at that point it's got a 75 kph head start. However, after it has gone under the bridge and through Tiergarten and is at Hohenrain, it has braked three times and is in 2nd gear. To this point, since it passed under the bridge, 14 seconds have elapsed.
Any advantage of momentum that the full lap car had has now been consumed.
The only further advantage that the full lap car would have would be its warmer tyres, which advantage will be equalised within the next three bends and 10 seconds.
The OP's suggestion is a good one, and surely there ought to be some downward adjustment made to BTG times to allow for the disparities that he has pointed out. These advantages do not, however, add up to the whole of the duration of the GTB sprint; perhaps a quarter of that time would be closer to the mark.
All this is assuming that one is timing oneself on a public day, which is almost always a stupid thing to do.
flemke said:
The OP's suggestion is a good one, and surely there ought to be some downward adjustment made to BTG times to allow for the disparities that he has pointed out. These advantages do not, however, add up to the whole of the duration of the GTB sprint; perhaps a quarter of that time would be closer to the mark.
using your figures from above implies GTB=1.73km. If car a passes G at 275 at the same time another passes B at 200. Even if the slower car holds a constant 200, it would take 83 seconds and 4.6km from B for the faster car to catch up. whats bridge to braking for t13? say 1k... in other words the slower car loses 1/4.6 of its 23sec advantage. that assumes the slower car doesnt accelerate so 1/4 is a good guess but its even less than that.
t13 is less than 1km and the slower car keeps accelerating. the car infront is still gonna be nearly 20secs infront by t13 so btg doesnt nearly equal full lap
Edited by fbrs on Tuesday 1st May 08:06
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